SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Bulbing Civil Service with a Great Prophet won't actually complete the tech in a single turn. A non-GS great person will contribute 1000 + 2*pop :science:. For us that will probably be about 1100 if we have about 50 pop.

Civil Service is something like 1248:science:. So we will need to research about 150 of that manually. If we run 0% science slider, assign 4 priests for 5 turns, while researching Civil Service we should be able to polish it off in one turn after the GProphet bulb.
 
We really don't want to starve below a 1/2 full food bar as that also pulls from the granary I believe.

I like the 3 Priest option so we don't starve at all, and don't give up the cottage if possible.

Techs for peace is definitely an option....and if we do it once, we want to consider doing it twice! ;)
 
4 turns of -2 :food: won't drop Delhi's food bin to less than half. More priests not only brings the great person birth sooner, it also increases the odds that it is a prophet.

Taking techs for peace is not something we should consider too lightly.
 
UPDATED PPP for the next few turns starting T114/25 BC

Changes in Red
Questions in Blue

RESEARCH

Change research from Philosophy to Civil Service; research CS at 0% Science.
Run 4 Priest Specialists in Delhi for 4 turns; 3 Priest Specialists for a 5th turn.
Generate a Great Prophet in Delhi; Great Prophet bulbs remainder of Civil Service.
Begin research on Aesthetics/Literature/Music path.

After Great Prophet is born in Delhi, do we want to return all citizens to working tiles, or reassign 2 Priest Specialists to be Scientist Specialists?

CITY BUILDS

Delhi = finish Cat; continue building Cats; build/whip a Temple only if Happiness becomes a problem.

Other 4 Indian Cities...
  1. finish Catapult build
  2. build Axeman
  3. alternate building Axes & Cats
  4. build/whip a Temple only if Happiness becomes a problem

Osaka...
  1. 1-pop whip Granary @ Size 2
  2. build Barracks
  3. alternate building Axes & Cats

All 5 Indian Cities have a Barracks, do we really need a Barracks in Osaka? Should Osaka build infrastructure instead (Courthouse/Library/Temple)?

Newly captured Japanese cities (if any) follow same template as Osaka.


FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN

Haven't taken a real close look at the Workers. In general, continue building Farms & Mines, maybe pre-chop a few Forests.


CIVICS CHANGES & OTHER STUFF

Change from Police State to Representation now (to supplement Priest Specialists in Delhi).
After Civil Service is known, change Civics...
  • from Barbarism to Bureaucracy
  • from Slavery to Caste System
Do we want to change from Theocracy to Organized Religion before the War with Japan has ended?

Will not ask for Peace with Toku before capturing the Japanese Capitol. Will consider Peace for Techs after Capitol is captured.
Will be nice toward Hammygawa & Lizzygawa & Hatsegawa and any other ****gawa we might meet.


REASONS TO PAUSE

Toku offers a fantastic Peace Treaty deal (unlikely, I think).
Hammy or Liz or Hattie offer us a trade, or a trade becomes available that we could offer one of them.
We meet another ****gawa.
Anything out of the ordinary (like a large English stack of units showing up).
Delhi produces a Great Engineer instead of a Great Prophet.
 
@C63 Probably hoping more of Liz's traits carried over. ;) Plus side are XBows are quite a large build and unless she upgrades them hopefully we won't see to many. I know I don't see that many in personal games (very very rarely build them). Then again I'm usually avoiding machinery to bulb lib and go for cuirassiers/cavs.

I'm ok with going for CS with a GP bulb as well. It won't cost us anything really going for a GP. Perhaps if we are going to do this a quick civic change to rep/or and whip temples/monasteries etc would be an idea?

AP only Hammy is a member so at least if he attacks us we get the option to call for a peace deal. :)
 
If we don't go for OR how about building a monastery in Delhi? It would help with research and we could build missionaries for our new japanese cities.
 
After (if) we get CS, Delhi should go back to working tiles. The cottages/hamlets are really quite good for the Bureau capital.

I don't think we need a barracks in Osaka. Skip straight to granary, then maybe christian temple/missionaries if we're in OR. The general plan for all satellite cities I imagine would be Granary, Temples, Assign Artists. Not much else.

A switch back to Organised Religion sounds like a good idea to me. Hopefully we've broken Toku's back enough that the extra 2 xp won't be needed so much.

I like C63's idea to build monasteries in Delhi. It's a future legendary city - any building offering culture is a bonus, and it's also our best :science: city. We could also plan to build some wonders here, eg, Parthenon. Maybe squeeze out a couple more Cats first though.

To add to the Stop Conditions: Capturing Toku's capital. If we're going to consider peace it would be good to see screenshots of what he's offering.
 
UPDATED PPP for the next few turns starting T114/25 BC

Update 2 Changes in Green
Update 1 Changes in Red
Questions in Blue

RESEARCH

Change research from Philosophy to Civil Service; research CS at 0% Science.
Run 4 Priest Specialists in Delhi for 4 turns; 3 Priest Specialists for a 5th turn.
Generate a Great Prophet in Delhi; Great Prophet bulbs remainder of Civil Service.
Begin research on Aesthetics/Literature/Music path.

After Great Prophet is born in Delhi, return all citizens to working tiles.

CITY BUILDS

Delhi = finish Cat; build 2 more Cats; build Hindu Monastery; build Christian Monastery; build Temple(s); build Hindu Missionaries for Japanese Cities.

Other 4 Indian Cities...
  1. finish Catapult build
  2. build Axeman
    [*]build Library
    [*]build Temple(s)

Osaka...
  1. build Granary
    [*]build Temple(s)
    [*]build Christian Missionaries for Indian cities

Newly captured Japanese cities (if any) follow same template as Osaka.

Should we consider building a Courthouse in captured Japanese Cities in order to eventually build the Forbidden Palace to reduce maintenance costs in those captured cities?


FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN

Haven't taken a real close look at the Workers. In general, continue building Farms & Mines, maybe pre-chop a few Forests.


CIVICS CHANGES & OTHER STUFF

Change from Police State to Representation (to supplement Priest Specialists in Delhi) & change from Theocracy to Organized Religion.
After Civil Service is known, change Civics...
  • from Barbarism to Bureaucracy
  • from Slavery to Caste System

Will not ask for Peace with Toku before capturing the Japanese Capitol. Will consider Peace for Techs after Capitol is captured.
Will be nice toward Hammygawa & Lizzygawa & Hatsegawa and any other ****gawa we might meet.


REASONS TO PAUSE

Toku offers a fantastic Peace Treaty deal (unlikely, I think).
Hammy or Liz or Hattie offer us a trade, or a trade becomes available that we could offer one of them.
We meet another ****gawa.
Anything out of the ordinary (like a large English stack of units showing up).
Delhi produces a Great Engineer instead of a Great Prophet.
Japanese Capitol is Captured!
 
Grifftavian said:
Other 4 Indian Cities...
  1. finish Catapult build
  2. build Axeman
    [*]build Library
    [*]build Temple(s)

...

& change from Theocracy to Organized Religion.
Click to expand...
Winding up the military production in our other 4 cities sounds like over confidence to me. If we were building infrastructure, the Hindu temple should be higher priority than library.

The switch to OR could at least wait until 5 turns from now, ie, keep Theocracy while we're producing the next set of catapults.
 
The only way I see winding down military production in our core is if we are willing to whip heavily in the newly captured cities. I am not sure there is enough pop in those cities to do that effectively, so I have to agree with aj that it may be premature to shut down military building.

1 option to speed the civil service push and produce better units after, might look like switching to Representation now partial building a few units in the que, and then switching back to Theocracy with the switch to Bureaucracy and finish a bunch of units over a few turns. This approach would save us a bit of maintenance cash in the short term also.
 
Have to agree still need more military as we only have approx 8 axes (11 just checked)? With Toku still having 4 cities we still need a bunch of them.

Have to agree on hindu temples/monasteries before libs. The +2 hammers for both is the equivalent of a free plains mine in each city so a big boost to production for free (ish).

Also not keen on courthouses before gran/hindu buildings. Though we will need them eventually.
 
If I may sum up priorities.

1) still military
2) hindu buildings

That is all I really see for the remainder of this turnset.
 
UPDATED PPP for the next few turns starting T114/25 BC

Changes in Maroon
Questions in Blue

RESEARCH

Change research from Philosophy to Civil Service; research CS at 0% Science.
Run 4 Priest Specialists in Delhi for 4 turns; 3 Priest Specialists for a 5th turn.
Generate a Great Prophet in Delhi; Great Prophet bulbs remainder of Civil Service.
Begin research on Aesthetics/Literature/Music path.

After Great Prophet is born in Delhi, return all citizens to working tiles.

CITY BUILDS

Delhi = finish Cat; continue building Cats; build/whip a Temple only if Happiness becomes a problem.

Other 4 Indian Cities...
  1. finish Catapult build
  2. build Axeman
    [*]alternate building Axes & Cats
    [*]build/whip a Temple only if Happiness becomes a problem

Osaka...
  1. 1-pop whip Granary @ Size 2
  2. build Temple(s)
  3. build Christian Missionaries for Indian Cities
Newly captured Japanese cities (if any) follow same template as Osaka.

FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN

Haven't taken a real close look at the Workers. In general, continue building Farms & Mines, maybe pre-chop a few Forests.

CIVICS CHANGES & OTHER STUFF

Change from Police State to Representation now (to supplement Priest Specialists in Delhi).
After Civil Service is known, change Civics...
  • from Barbarism to Bureaucracy
  • from Slavery to Caste System
    [*]from Theocracy to Organized Religion

Will not ask for Peace with Toku before capturing the Japanese Capitol.
Will be nice toward Hammygawa & Lizzygawa & Hatsegawa and any other ****gawa we might meet.


REASONS TO PAUSE

Toku offers a fantastic Peace Treaty deal (unlikely, I think).
Hammy or Liz or Hattie offer us a trade, or a trade becomes available that we could offer one of them.
We meet another ****gawa.
Anything out of the ordinary (like a large English stack of units showing up).
Delhi produces a Great Engineer instead of a Great Prophet.
Japanese Capitol is Captured!
 
Since we have such a lot going on, maybe a turnset pause or stop after the Great Person is born would be suitable. Then we can decide: 1) civics like Caste System/Slavery or Theocracy/Organised Religion, 2) check up on how the war is going, 3) discuss the possibilities for a GE if that's what we get.

Is this appropriate for the timeframe of our game? Completion deadline is May 21st, still a month and a half away.

Hopefully after the war with Toku is complete, things will start to become a bit more predictable and more free flowing. Wishful thinking! ;)

Another thought occured to me - if Liz does declare war on us, we should be able to get Hammu to declare war on her via the AP. Given that they have met eachother, it's quite possible they share a border, and that should keep Liz well occupied for a while. Meanwhile we get to generate some shared war +diplo with Hammu, possibly enough to get OB in the future.

Also note, if at any point in the turnset Hammu makes contact with Toku, we might have the option to get Hammu into war with Toku. I think this is an option worth pursuing as well.
 
Osaka...

1-pop whip Granary @ Size 2
build Temple(s)
build Christian Missionaries for Indian Cities
Click to expand...
Too early for spread christianism, spread hindu to japanese cities should have higher priority, because:
.they'll benefit from whichever religious civic we run
.they can build the hindu temples for the AP hammers
.they will add to shrine revenue

Of course we need a hindu monastery somewhere, or run OR.

Another thought occured to me - if Liz does declare war on us, we should be able to get Hammu to declare war on her via the AP. Given that they have met eachother, it's quite possible they share a border, and that should keep Liz well occupied for a while. Meanwhile we get to generate some shared war +diplo with Hammu, possibly enough to get OB in the future.
Also note, if at any point in the turnset Hammu makes contact with Toku, we might have the option to get Hammu into war with Toku. I think this is an option worth pursuing as well.
Click to expand...
Don't we need Hammu to be a full member for that?
 
Excellent point C63. Worth squeezing the monastery build in Delhi? With the rest of our core cities producing catapults and axes, can we spare Delhi to produce a monastery+missionaries for a while? I think yes. And the monastery build is a good thing anyway.

Maybe just one... more... catapult... ?
 
adrianj said:
Since we have such a lot going on, maybe a turnset pause or stop after the Great Person is born would be suitable. Then we can decide: 1) civics like Caste System/Slavery or Theocracy/Organised Religion, 2) check up on how the war is going, 3) discuss the possibilities for a GE if that's what we get.

Is this appropriate for the timeframe of our game? Completion deadline is May 21st, still a month and a half away.

Hopefully after the war with Toku is complete, things will start to become a bit more predictable and more free flowing. Wishful thinking! ;)

Another thought occured to me - if Liz does declare war on us, we should be able to get Hammu to declare war on her via the AP. Given that they have met eachother, it's quite possible they share a border, and that should keep Liz well occupied for a while. Meanwhile we get to generate some shared war +diplo with Hammu, possibly enough to get OB in the future.

Also note, if at any point in the turnset Hammu makes contact with Toku, we might have the option to get Hammu into war with Toku. I think this is an option worth pursuing as well.
Click to expand...
I'm OK with stopping after the Great Person is born. I've already played 5 turns, and it will be about 5 more turns until the GPerson is born. IIRC most turn sets have been ~10 turns. So I'll just plan on stopping after the GPerson is born if that is OK with everyone.
 
There is another way that we can save one more turn on switching to Bureaucracy, but it requires some Micromanagement.

We should try to get enough science invested in to Civil Service so that the new Prophet can completely finish the tech with the bulb. This would mean we could revolt to Bureau the same turn we use the bulb, rather than having to wait until the following turn.

It looks like our total population will be 34 in 5 turns from now. So the bulb is worth 1064 :science:. We would need to have at least 1248-1064 = 184 invested into the tech when we do the bulb, but not much more because any extra is basically wasted.

With the slider at 0% for the next 4 turns our only source of :science: will be Delhi's priests. They will add 15:science:/turn, or (1+15)*1.2 = 19:science: after hidden modifiers. On the fifth turn we will need to scrape together just over 194 - 19*4 = 108:science:. The number we would want to see next to the science slider in the top left of the screen should be at least (108/1.2)-1 = 89 on the fifth turn.

Edit: Griff - you will actually need to work this out for yourself on the 5th turn. My numbers are going to be off because I forgot to consider the overflow we have from having just learned Meditation.

(Inevitably, after all this planning, we will produce a GE :lol:)
 
adrianj said:
There is another way that we can save one more turn on switching to Bureaucracy, but it requires some Micromanagement.

We should try to get enough science invested in to Civil Service so that the new Prophet can completely finish the tech with the bulb. This would mean we could revolt to Bureau the same turn we use the bulb, rather than having to wait until the following turn.

It looks like our total population will be 34 in 5 turns from now. So the bulb is worth 1064 :science:. We would need to have at least 1248-1064 = 184 invested into the tech when we do the bulb, but not much more because any extra is basically wasted.

With the slider at 0% for the next 4 turns our only source of :science: will be Delhi's priests. They will add 15:science:/turn, or (1+15)*1.2 = 19:science: after hidden modifiers. On the fifth turn we will need to scrape together just over 194 - 19*4 = 108:science:. The number we would want to see next to the science slider in the top left of the screen should be at least (108/1.2)-1 = 89 on the fifth turn.

Edit: Griff - you will actually need to work this out for yourself on the 5th turn. My numbers are going to be off because I forgot to consider the overflow we have from having just learned Meditation.

(Inevitably, after all this planning, we will produce a GE :lol:)
Click to expand...

The statements above in Green seem to conflict with each other. Is there a Beaker overflow from learning a Tech? If so, is there a way to determine how many beakers were overflowed? I'm going to assume there isn't any beaker overflow, which would be the worst case scenario.

The Priest Specialists themselves don't add any Beakers, just 1 Hammer & 1 Gold each. So I believe all we will get with the 4 Priest Specialists is the +3 :science:/Specialist from the Representation Civic, for a total of 12 :science:/turn. If this is the case, we will need to self generate 128 :science: by the 5th turn.

The biggest problem is we only have 66 gold in our Treasury, which limits our options.

The only way I have figured to make it work is...

Run 4 Priest Specialists as previously planned (4 for 4 turns, 3 for the 5th turn), but also switch to Caste System with the change to Representation. Run 5 Scientist Specialists from the other 4 Indian Cities for the first 3 turns, and 4 Scientist Specialists for the last 2 turns. The Scientists Specialists generate 6 :science:/turn each with Representation. Total :science: generated by the Scientist Specialists is [(6*5) *3] + [(6*4) *2] = 138 :science:. At 0% Science, our Treasury grows at +13 :gold:/turn; after 5 turns our Treasury = 131 :gold:.
 
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