Which real life civs won which victory conditions

sixty4half said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that recipes equal culture. Recipes are largely determined by what's available in your geographical location, which also explains why Pizza and other foods have become Americanized. We simply don't cook the same way the Italians do, or have the same ingredients available (We do now have access to those ingredients because of "Refrigeration" but did not always have that access). Simply because I eat curry chicken doesn't mean I have any interest at all in Bollywood, will start listening to Carnatic or am going to read the Mahabharata.

I think we need to keep tourism confined to how the game determines it for the sake of this discussion. Natural Wonders, World/National Wonders, Architecture and Art, Music and Literature.



There were 4 religions founded in India. Unless I'm misinterpretting what you're saying, that should give India the leg up.

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I wouldn't disagree with regards to religion - the Indians definitely have an advantage there. Natural-wonder wise, the Chinese have Mt. Kaliash, whereas the Indians lack a natural wonder. Mughal Forts will give a ton of tourism, yes, but the Great Firewall's ability will block out large amounts of internet tourism, typically needed for a cultural victory.

As for cuisine, the fact is that the resource is still attributed toward the country. When you say pizza and spaghetti, people think of Italy. When you say dumplings and bok choy, people think of China.

orasis said:

As for food... since someone mentioned that vis-a-vis America.

Italian pizza is nothing like the more popular 'Americanized' Pizza. Same with spaghetti. Spaghetti and meat-balls is not Italian, it's American.

Chinese? Most of those popular 'Asian take-out' meals were created in the United States.

Mexican? You mean Tex-Mex! Real tacos and burritos are nothing like the American ones that most people prefer around the world.

Music? What music genre today did not originate in the United States?

I could go on and on and on.... But America has done culture like no one else has in world history.

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Seriously, this is the worst argument I've ever read.

I just thought about something. CV is two ways having enough "culture" to stave off other civs tourism, BUT also having enough tourism to influence other cultures.

Thus America is a relatively new nation with very little in terms of "American Identity"

Cowboys, Levi Jeans, Apple Pie, Hot dogs, Freedom, and Rock N Roll are the things I could say are distinctly American.

Hollywood and Broadway were SOLID boosts for America. That was distinctly American and really gave it some strong influence abroad. Great Musicians helped as well.

Sure but who hasn't watched a Miyazaki film (Spirited Away) or watched DBZ growing up?

But because of America's open borders and lack of culture/cuisine - it has been heavily influence by India, Europe, China, etc.

Also America has had a short number of turns to accumulate culture of its own. The bikini was invented by a Frenchman. Very few things are distinctly American. Thus several civs are dominant/influential with America.

But through its military actions and diplomacy abroad America has spread its influence. It is very influential with some nations (Cuba, Philippines, South Korea, Japan, Germany comes to mind) and it is influential with others like India, China, Russia. Russia has been very resistant though and so has North Korea, Iran, etc.

All in all nobody has "won" a CV because there's no percentage charts we can see or define. (If every American ate Chinese food has China won?) (If every Indian watched the Dark Knight Rises is that an American victory?)

TL;DR America has the tourism to output, but not the culture to defend.

Simply because I eat curry chicken doesn't mean I have any interest at all in Bollywood, will start listening to Carnatic or am going to read the Mahabharata.

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True but if there is a Indian place in your neighborhood, there will be a yoga studio, a nearby Temple or Mandir, etc. In your neighborhood people may celebrate Diwali, and thus you will be exposed to the culture.

Food is a small part of it, but it is definitely the "foot in the door."

The USA arguably won the space victory:

Protagonist said:

The USA arguably won the space victory:

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US Started it, hasn't finished

People that have walked in another solar system

Americans:0
All others:0

I recently read a link that browd shared awhile ago and it was about sid meier and he mentions that theres a difference between real life and game fantasy. I also know that sid meier is Dutch so in a way, the netherlands could have had a type of victory there.
Its hard to compare real life with game fantasy but when i do, i see that each civilization has its own uniqueness that somehow ends up in other parts of the world away from its native lands.

Protagonist said:

The USA arguably won the space victory:

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Refer to my own comment in this thread :

poom3619 said:

Did you know that "Apollo Program" is called "Soyuz Programme" in Russian localization and USSR was equal to USA in space achievement before Moon landing?

and EU, USA, Japan, China, India and USSR/Russia has a successful unmanned landing on the moon if you use "Soyuz+" criteria

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By the way, I really wonder if sending manned spacecraft to the moon is worth anything more than bragging right, you have to put life support, food and man (which take considerable space to be mentally healthy) in a spacecraft, when you can land robot which could do most thing human can do in space in less requirement.

They've hardly won the space race for simply walking on the moon!! One does not simply walk on the moon and assume the space race is over!! In the game, the space race ends when the first Civ reaches Alpha Centauri, NOT THE MOON!!! If that's the case, you could argue that the Russians were the first country to send somebody to the moon - or are you just picking and choosing what qualifies for winning the space race?? I'm actually dumb struck that somebody would use this as an argument!!

Am I the only one who think going to alpha centauri is really a bad stupid idea
i mean... that's a star you CANT go to alpha centauri

Greggy08 said:

Am I the only one who think going to alpha centauri is really a bad stupid idea
i mean... that's a star you CANT go to alpha centauri

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Yes it is a star but it is the closest star to us and planets have also been detected around it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Centauri#Planets

Obviously there is no way for us to reach this planet but in terms of gameplay, it makes sense for it to be the destination of a futuristic space race. If Humans were to consider colonisation of other worlds outside our solar system, this would be the first place to be considered.

poom3619 said:

^ I think it's "taking other's culture, change it a bit and then say it is from USA"



Genre that you probably never heard of.

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It is - that's what the cultural powerhouse does. Adopts everything then passes it off as its own. See Italian food, Mexican food, Hamburgers (originally German), music (originally African/African-American).

Yes people talk of the Chinese manufacturing industry - but it doesn't have the same cultural influence. German engineering has a greater impact because of its recognized quality - but no one goes "wow - made in China - its going to be awesome".

Yes its not perhaps the greatest way to think to equate culture to mass export of tv, film, language, industry and even "democracy - US style" - but it is the American way and the fact that a lot of people think in that way (Capitalism (or more accuratly corporatism) shows its influence. The way we equate living a successful life in what we grandly call "the West" is due to American influence on our cultures. I.e. we think the more capital we accumulate the better we are. It has a lot of influence. Perhaps it hasn't dominated places like India or China - but it is influential.

Cultures conglomerate over time. US culture was heavily influenced by British culture. British culture a mixture of various parts of Europe, a byproduct of EU's messy history of shifting borders. Look in the other direction, and I see the shift towards a global culture. Heavily influence by US, perhaps, but still several parts of the world contributing.

I find it kind of silly to debate who won a "culture victory" when it is kind of a combined effort. At the current rate I guess you could say the "West" is going to win and I guess you could call the US the forerunner in modern times, but it isn't a solo effort. As time passes, the US will even lose its lead--not so much from slowing down, but markets across the world will stabilize and other nations will contribute more in comparison.

Anyway, if I had to give an answer to such a question I'd say Eygpt and China. Both have stood the test of time. Emerging when everyone else just wandered around as tribes, and still standing several thousands of years later. Changing over time, but never being fully conquered or removed from history.

Matthew. said:

Anyway, if I had to give an answer to such a question I'd say Eygpt and China. Both have stood the test of time. Emerging when everyone else just wandered around as tribes, and still standing several thousands of years later. Changing over time, but never being fully conquered or removed from history.

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One can add India to the list. So then Egypt, China, and India win?

No, in Civ5 criteria. But if there are Cultural Victory that can be won in Ancient or Classical era then there's number of civ that's already won. But time move on and those civ fell.

tat501 said:

It is - that's what the cultural powerhouse does. Adopts everything then passes it off as its own. See Italian food, Mexican food, Hamburgers (originally German), music (originally African/African-American).

Yes people talk of the Chinese manufacturing industry - but it doesn't have the same cultural influence. German engineering has a greater impact because of its recognized quality - but no one goes "wow - made in China - its going to be awesome".

Yes its not perhaps the greatest way to think to equate culture to mass export of tv, film, language, industry and even "democracy - US style" - but it is the American way and the fact that a lot of people think in that way (Capitalism (or more accuratly corporatism) shows its influence. The way we equate living a successful life in what we grandly call "the West" is due to American influence on our cultures. I.e. we think the more capital we accumulate the better we are. It has a lot of influence. Perhaps it hasn't dominated places like India or China - but it is influential.

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Okay, it is influential. It's funny that when USA eat hamburger, German didn't influenced over USA. But when another nation eat hamburger during and after Cold War. USA influenced over them. I admit I notice my own straw-maning in last argument. But I think it's worth noting how some see USA as owner of culture and cuisine that they changed little from original owner and went mainstream.

India and China could be number 1 in demographics along with the US but for meeting victory conditions in real life I wouldn't know.

Yes, I suppose India. TBH I don't know much about Indian history :/

I suppose Greece would fit, too. Pretty sure Athens has always been Athens since early history. One could even argue they are still influencing civilizations across the world, in areas like architecture. It may be out of habit/tradition, but hey it is called Greek architecture for a reason

Standing the test of time is the only criteria that makes sense. Civ 5 victory conditions are too silly to apply to real life. Holding every capital in the world? Yeah, even Mongols cannot come close to that. Alpha Centauri is just a tad bit farther than the moon. As mentioned, citing one Civ for a culture victory is kind of silly. At the current rate of nations wanting independence, breaking away from former alliances/partnerships, the idea of voting in a "world leader" seems as unrealistic as any of the others.

Looks like time victory. In which case China still wins

Korea for sure. Great leader has flaws, no, his will life will rule world entirely. All other bow to great Kim....

Seriously though, I think barbarians win.

England could have some type of victory since this forum is in english. While rome could also have some kind ofrecen victory since August caesar is the highest ranked default AI at the end of a finished match.

Does getting conquered affect the scoring? China and India were conquered by the Mongols and English, respectively.

HeliosDisciple said:

Does getting conquered affect the scoring? China and India were conquered by the Mongols and English, respectively.

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Mongols were like a primitive wwii Hitler where they had most of Asia conquered but lost it because of rebellions and over expansion issues.