Some Social Policy questions?

Athenaeum

Prince
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Let's say you finish Tradition or Liberty before Renaissance and have a couple extra social policies to adopt. Let's say you plan on doing a lot of war.

I think that the Warrior Code social policy is really valuable (What do you think?). The +15% hammers towards units is awesome, but what's even more awesome is the free General and increase in General spawn. Generals are really OP in this game and the ability to make citadels extremely close to other players' cities can give you a massive advantage in war.


But the question is, do you want to adopt the Honor opener as well (which becomes obsolete pretty early in the game after barbarians turn near-extinct) and use 2 social policies just to obtain Warrior Code?


1) So in short, do you think it's worth it to adopt the Honor opener later in the Medieval era - expecting little to no benefit from it - just so you can adopt Warrior Code for war?


Now another question...ideally if I'm doing a lot of war, I'm going to want Wagon Trains as well as Warrior Code to reduce the costs of roads (because I am very liberal with building roads in war).

2) Which do you think would be a better expenditure of 2 social policies - Honor opener and Warrior Code, or Commerce Opener and Wagon Trains? Remember to consider a scenario in which you're planning for a lot of war, especially conquest.
 
The AI isn't good enough at tactical combat for me to need combat bonuses so I wouldn't consider Honor as I'd get a bigger advantage choosing filler policies with economic benefit even if planning on war mongling a lot.

I'd most likely choose Patronage and Consulates as the filler policies while waiting to be allowed into Rationalism.
In addition to the great economic effect of being Friends from city state quests for quite a long time, it would require less gold to maintain city state allies, and city state allies help district your opponents.
 
First of all, I'm not talking about adopting the whole Honor tree, I'm only talking about the opener and Warrior Code. Neither of those gives you any combat bonuses (besides vs. barbarians). Warrior Code gives you a production bonus for units and higher great general spawn.

Second, I am talking about fighting other human players. Great Generals tend to be very useful in combat in general. If you can place a citadel one or two tiles away from a person's city, that can give you a strong advantage in taking that city.

After I asked this I kind of answered my own question to an extent. It is better to adopt Wagon Trains than Warrior Code when fighting a far away land opponent (because you'll need more roads), but it's better to adopt Warrior Code when fighting a next-door neighbor because you need fewer roads but there will be more citadel opportunities since your territory is adjacent to theirs.
 
If you want Honor i think you are best to start with Tradition then go to the Honor opener. Go back and finish Tradition and then take the left side of Honor. Dont just get Warrior Code you should pick up military tradition too for the exp bonus. Extra exp is what makes Honor powerful.
 
Bear in mind that Warrior Code only applies to melee units. That's wouldn't be a huge downside if it was defined as the term is generally used (any non ranged unit), but in game terms melee doesn't include anything beyond pikes and longswords, as gunpowder units are a separate class (as are mounted units). Once these units become obsolete, the production bonus is useless, and even before then it only affects part of your army.
The great general bonus can be useful, but what really appeals to me in honor is the next policy- Military Tradition. Promotions like logistics an extra range fundamentally alter the nature of combat, and getting to them faster will likely do a lot more to win you wars than extra generals. I'm not sure this is worth a three policy dip into honor, but if you're considering it, you might want to take the honor opener as your second policy rather than waiting until it's obsolete. It will slow down tradition a bit, but you'll be ahead culture-wise once you go back to honor, and in the mean time you'll have an easier time dealing with barbarians
 
Otherwise for military you should take the right side of commerce to mercentalism so you can spam cheap landskechts
 
Piety could be a challenging social policy too and more than honor maybe since your units arent that overpowered and you dont have the economic benefits from tradition. Liberty too since it seems good at economy in a way like tradition but wider.
 
I think warrior code is great for spamming cavalry units. If you have this policy and a stables, forge and workshop you get +55% production.

If you're playing against humans they'll probably just build ranged units which cavalry are a perfect counter for.
 
Bear in mind that Warrior Code only applies to melee units. That's wouldn't be a huge downside if it was defined as the term is generally used (any non ranged unit), but in game terms melee doesn't include anything beyond pikes and longswords, as gunpowder units are a separate class (as are mounted units). Once these units become obsolete, the production bonus is useless, and even before then it only affects part of your army.
The great general bonus can be useful, but what really appeals to me in honor is the next policy- Military Tradition. Promotions like logistics an extra range fundamentally alter the nature of combat, and getting to them faster will likely do a lot more to win you wars than extra generals. I'm not sure this is worth a three policy dip into honor, but if you're considering it, you might want to take the honor opener as your second policy rather than waiting until it's obsolete. It will slow down tradition a bit, but you'll be ahead culture-wise once you go back to honor, and in the mean time you'll have an easier time dealing with barbarians


First, please keep in mind everyone that I'm talking about multiplayer, where generals are used pretty often to make citadels and such and I've noticed that that can really impact the game, which is why I want generals.

So when you say the production bonus from warrior code applies only to pre-gunpowder melee, are you talking about unmodded civ? Does this also mean that Zulu's UA only decreases unit maintenance costs for pre-gunpowder melee as well?


I still might consider adopting Warrior Code for the free General and increased general spawn. Stealing peoples' territory is really valuable in multiplayer. In multiplayer, you're more likely to use upgrades for instant heals, so that kind of throws logistics out the door most of the time.
 
I think warrior code is great for spamming cavalry units. If you have this policy and a stables, forge and workshop you get +55% production.

If you're playing against humans they'll probably just build ranged units which cavalry are a perfect counter for.

Unless the policy's tooltip is wrong, it doesn't apply to cavalry. While it's common to describe all non-ranged units as "melee units", in the game's terminology Melee units only means warriors, spearmen, pikemen, swordsmen and longswordsmen (and associated UUs). Horsemen, Knights, etc. are Mounted units, while Musketmen and further units in that line are Gunpowder units.

So when you say the production bonus from warrior code applies only to pre-gunpowder melee, are you talking about unmodded civ? Does this also mean that Zulu's UA only decreases unit maintenance costs for pre-gunpowder melee as well?

I don't have the Zulu UA in front of me right now, but I believe that is correct (and yes I am talking about the unmodded game).
 
So the basic jist of this question is, for war, which social policy path is more important? Honor opener + Warrior Code (for generals)? Or Commerce opener + Wagon Trains?
 
Well that really makes me rethink the Zulu then...

Zulu is very strong because of impis and they are pikemans with extra ranged attack. You should've done most of the work on DomV by the time you need to upgrade them.
 
So the basic jist of this question is, for war, which social policy path is more important? Honor opener + Warrior Code (for generals)? Or Commerce opener + Wagon Trains?

The honor opener with warrior code could be useful with melee units in land and sea while the commerce opener could be useful more in large land maps particularly with wagon trains. It depends on what situation you end up in since some policies are more suitable for different situationsand not the same situations.
 
Unless the policy's tooltip is wrong, it doesn't apply to cavalry. While it's common to describe all non-ranged units as "melee units", in the game's terminology Melee units only means warriors, spearmen, pikemen, swordsmen and longswordsmen (and associated UUs). Horsemen, Knights, etc. are Mounted units, while Musketmen and further units in that line are Gunpowder units.
Warrior Code's production boost is created in this table in the code:
Code:
<Policy_UnitCombatProductionModifiers>
	<Row>
		<PolicyType>POLICY_WARRIOR_CODE</PolicyType>
		<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
		<ProductionModifier>15</ProductionModifier>
	</Row>
</Policy_UnitCombatProductionModifiers>
Therefore it indeed only applies to the units mentioned.
I don't have the Zulu UA in front of me right now, but I believe that is correct (and yes I am talking about the unmodded game).
In a similar manner as Warrior Code's production increase, the Zulu UA for reduced unit maintenance is specific to the UNITCOMBAT_MELEE group, and so also only applies to the same units as the Warrior Code production boost.
 
If I'm planning on doing some fighting I like the left side of the Honor tree. Free General is always a plus, especially if you're fighting a civ that doesn't have one. The XP bonus is really the key though, after even a limited war it can turn a few units into absolutes beasts.

It can be tough to fit the three policies in, but if you've got a really good UU (like Longbows or something where a the right promotions will turn the units into monsters) I think it can be really worth it, especially if you keep those units alive and stack up some good promotions.
 
If you only have 2 filler policies, I think Commerce into Wagon Trains is best for warmongering. You benefit from both social policies, and Wagon Trains also gives you more gold for caravans (which are a lot safer than cargo ships during war).

For the other option, you only get the great general bonus, and for a little time, the melee production bonus, so it's like 1.25 policies wasted. The benefit of the great generals is very situational. You can plant offensive citadels, but not all the time, and in MP is even harder to capitalize on those citadels. It's not like in SP when the stupid AI just targets the unit in the citadel while you siege the city with ranged units. Using the Great General in battle is not really game changing (15% production bonus), and you need to be careful not to lose it, in MP the other player may concentrate on destroying your Great Generals and surprise you.

Unless there is some greater benefit of having Great Generals (so China, Mongolia or Sweden) I don't thing Warrior Code is worth it by itself. If you indent to go further into the Honor tree, it may worth it but that is a different discussion.
 
The trees are pretty well designed so that earlier trees are eclipsed by picks available later. For warmongering, if not going full Honor, then spare picks in Commence even Exploration are much stronger than anything elsewhere. Warrior Code is good -- just not as good as the post-medieval alternatives. I agree with joncnunn that Consulates is better for warmongering than Warrior Code.
 
If you only have 2 filler policies, I think Commerce into Wagon Trains is best for warmongering. You benefit from both social policies, and Wagon Trains also gives you more gold for caravans (which are a lot safer than cargo ships during war).

For the other option, you only get the great general bonus, and for a little time, the melee production bonus, so it's like 1.25 policies wasted. The benefit of the great generals is very situational. You can plant offensive citadels, but not all the time, and in MP is even harder to capitalize on those citadels. It's not like in SP when the stupid AI just targets the unit in the citadel while you siege the city with ranged units. Using the Great General in battle is not really game changing (15% production bonus), and you need to be careful not to lose it, in MP the other player may concentrate on destroying your Great Generals and surprise you.

Unless there is some greater benefit of having Great Generals (so China, Mongolia or Sweden) I don't thing Warrior Code is worth it by itself. If you indent to go further into the Honor tree, it may worth it but that is a different discussion.


Well if you can plant a citadel literally right next to someone's city, which is very feasible, even the unit that's garrisoned in the city takes 30 damage each turn. That's a big deal.

But what's even more worth mentioning is that the citadel claims territory as well. This can be useful if you can claim territory close to the enemy's city, because you steal their roads (which cost you maintenance, but now you can use them and they can't) or you can build roads that lead right up to their city. I think this is pretty huge in and of itself.

Great Generals may or may not be more useful in SP than in MP, but you're not going to convince me that they're overrated in any circumstance no matter how hard you try. I've seen too many MP games where a citadel was placed in a fatal spot that completely doomed another player to think otherwise about them.
 
Well if you can plant a citadel literally right next to someone's city, which is very feasible, even the unit that's garrisoned in the city takes 30 damage each turn. That's a big deal.

How many times can you do that? You need your cultural borders to be just 2 tiles away from the city tile itself, so unless you plant multiple citadels you realistically can't do it for a capital, and you may be able to do in with an expo but again you really need the right circumstances. Not to mention that a citadel can be pillaged, another citadel can be constructed right next to it, so now the opposition has two citadels in their territory, etc. In MP the opponent is smart and will think of ways to counter this, and unless he is already weak on military he can get through, but if he is weak the citadel probably just bought you a couple of turns.

But what's even more worth mentioning is that the citadel claims territory as well. This can be useful if you can claim territory close to the enemy's city, because you steal their roads (which cost you maintenance, but now you can use them and they can't) or you can build roads that lead right up to their city. I think this is pretty huge in and of itself.

Yes, this is useful, but if you need build roads after grabbing the territory, this will delay your attack and give the opponent time to organize a defense.

Great Generals may or may not be more useful in SP than in MP, but you're not going to convince me that they're overrated in any circumstance no matter how hard you try. I've seen too many MP games where a citadel was placed in a fatal spot that completely doomed another player to think otherwise about them.

If you already have your mind set up on this issue, why did you even start a thread debating this?

I'm not saying Great Generals are overrated, I'm just saying most of the time you end up having more than you need (because offensive citadels are situational and you don't really have an opportunity to use them every time), so a modifier that gives you 50% more great generals (in theory) isn't really worth investing two SPs in it, especially since it is just for it because the other bonuses those two SPs give become obsolete.

You can try and post this question in the MP section, maybe players with more experience in MP can have a more accurate view on this, but I think that in this specific scenario Commerce opener with Wagon Trains would be a better option (both for MP and SP). In the right conditions, even Exploration opener with Maritime Infrastructure would be a better option for 2 filler policies.
 
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