[BNW] War penalty

Hello,

Is there any kind of war penalty, especially early in the game, when you declare war to the AI without attacking it ?

for example :

1. if I want to pass through their territory (usually when they block coast tiles for my ships early in the game)
2. if I want to stop all current diplomatical trades with them (gold per turn and resources)

When I do that, they say something like "You pathetical fool", but do absolutely nothing else and offer me a peace treaty a little later.
I can, however, see that they say "We've been at war in the past", so I guess there is one. In the 2 cases shown above, should I declare war or is the penalty significant ?

This is BNW, single player and I'm playing in difficulty 5 usually, going to try 6 today

Regadless if there is actually any fighting or not, declaring war just so you can move a unit is going to impact your World reputation. Other nations will see you as a warmonger and will not trust you. If you have DoF or things like that, it can hurt your relations even more. It's a slippery slope declaring war for very mundane reasons!!!!

The penalty is slight in the Ancient Era. It's generally better kept for stealing workers/settlers.

It also depends on the civ. Some civs overlook being warred. Others even seem to respect you a bit for throwing your weight around. I had a game where I declared war against Persia twice early on and two turns after the 2nd peace deal, he was ready to be friends. In that same game though, I had warred Japan once and he didn't make peace until after sending 2 failed waves of military I almost wasn't ready for.

There is, but its very, very small. Warmonger score in accient/clasical era will also fade away fast.

But don't break DoF. Never. DoW, killing units, even burn a city here and there will fade over time, but breaking DoF sticks forever.

Be a bit careful at higher diff levels. AI may actually have some units and send them your way.

Each and every DOW adds 250 (iirc) points to your warmonger score. On average this is 20 times larger than the resulting hate so that corresponds to 12.5 points of hate each time.

Thank you for your answers, I started my first game in Emperor (which I thought would be very hard) so I was a little afraid declaring to much wars could have a bad effect on late game.

But in fact the result was hilarious :

Almost beginning of the game, Byzantium is blocking the path for my scout, so I declare war, worrying a bit.

After that, Byzantium (Theodora) is of course very angry... But everything else is fine, other civs don't seem to care ... except Arabia, who now thinks I'm a warmongering menace to the world (... already, at like turn 30 !!).
Theodora doesn't want any negociations at the beginning. However, after a very short while, not only does SHE ask me to accept a peace treaty, but she also GIVES ME 9 GPT for that. LOL. At this moment, my gold production is ridiculous, something like +1/+2, and she has about twice my score...
~50 turns later, Theodora doesn't remember anything from this war, Arabia doesn't believe I'm a warmonger anymore, Zulus and me declare friendship.

So it looks to me that this penalty is really unsignificant, and it disappears quickly over time. The funniest thing is : I wasn't even trying to abuse the AI

Saiph300 said:

Zulus and me declare friendship.

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If passive diplomacy is of interest to you, this can sometimes be a bad decision. Shaka is a VERY loyal friend to have. However, if you're friends with them and they go attacking people, those people will think less of you. And once denunciations start to fly, you'll get caught up in them even if you weren't aggressive yourself. Don't be afraid to turn down friendship offers by civs that are widely hated in a game.

Making peace during war time with AI is a lot easier in civilization 5 than in 4 if you both have a chance of survival. Often times, one can refuse what a warmonger AI is demanding and ask for free peace) meaning peace treaty with no conditions and then they accept it. It happens more often.

Dushku said:

If passive diplomacy is of interest to you, this can sometimes be a bad decision. Shaka is a VERY loyal friend to have. However, if you're friends with them and they go attacking people, those people will think less of you. And once denunciations start to fly, you'll get caught up in them even if you weren't aggressive yourself. Don't be afraid to turn down friendship offers by civs that are widely hated in a game.

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Wow, you're totally right, that's what happened indeed later. Also Shaka asks for tributes to city-states a little too often. Nice tip, I didn't even think at refusing declarations of friendship before.

Shaka is the best friend if you're aiming for DomV. Especially if he's on the other side of the world. Don't have to worry about backstab and he even helps you weaken civs before you get to them.

I dont think you will get penalty if you havent met any other civs. Anyways why war for moving your units through his territory, you can first try to negotiate open borders, if they dislike you that much then i dont think its a problem to actually provoke them to war you

The problem is that open borders requires administration, and even with that it's hard to get it from the AI.

What do you do when your scout/ships are blocked by the AI ? Isn't it better to declare war than to delay your exploration ?

Saiph300 said:

The problem is that open borders requires administration, and even with that it's hard to get it from the AI.

What do you do when your scout/ships are blocked by the AI ? Isn't it better to declare war than to delay your exploration ?

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Well in such case i prepare for siege and directly start the wipe out. At that point i wont care about other civs denouncing me. Problem start when they want to shut me off with embargo and luxury bans at which point i invest some money in CS for more diplomats

Relying on open borders for war is one of the worst things you could do because your neighbor could betray you, boot your units off its land during DoW start and then scatter your units through random areas. Not only that but you also end up fighting 2 AI at the same time.

reddishrecue said:

Relying on open borders for war is one of the worst things you could do because your neighbor could betray you, boot your units off its land during DoW start and then scatter your units through random areas.

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It doesn't even require betrayal. If you have open borders and have units inside their borders, the moment YOU declare war, borders are closed and your units expelled. THEN you can enter and attack.

Dushku said:

It doesn't even require betrayal. If you have open borders and have units inside their borders, the moment YOU declare war, borders are closed and your units expelled. THEN you can enter and attack.

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Yeah so that way you get the land yourself so that you can get to whoever youre targetting.

reddishrecue said:

Relying on open borders for war is one of the worst things you could do because your neighbor could betray you, boot your units off its land during DoW start and then scatter your units through random areas. Not only that but you also end up fighting 2 AI at the same time.

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I believe the OP means to use the war as an OBT.