Worst civilization incl. BNW
- Thread starter topresch
- Start date
Reread the OP: he's asking if Ottomans are still the worst, OR if BNW added anything worse. Basically, all civs open for discussion.
Anyways, I think people are way too hard on Indonesia. Kris Swords are pretty good, Candi provides mad faith generation, and UA works pretty well later in the game too. Nothing says you have to try and hack it on an archipelago; I find they do pretty well on Continents and REALLY well on Small Continents.
Tyrvos
Cu Chulainn
I think the issue people have with Indonesia is they are kinda dice roll and not consistent. The kris swordsman could get a very good random upgrade, or a very bad one. The Candi relies on how many religions there are in the city, which is more in your control but still volatile. The UA relies on map type and access to other bodies of land. I've played them and thought they were fun, but the potential of your uniques seems too reliant on randomness.
Navelgazer
King
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2012
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The thing about Kris Swordsmen (who are in my humble opinion one of the best UUs, if used properly) is that in that short window when they're available to build, that's what Indonesia is doing. Not just building them, but using them. Spam them out until you've got no more iron, and send them off on bloody conquest as fast as possible. Most will get phenomenal upgrades. Great! Use those to support the ones with the downgrades as you send your downgraded units on suicide missions and then replace them as soon as they're dead. Do this as long as the window is open, and hold that window open for as long as it's feasible. You won't care (nearly so much, anyway) about the Enemy Blade "promotion" because you know what that soldier is for now. And in the end, you'll have a ton of conquering done, and some prime-candidate cities for popping Candis in, too.
How can anyone say EGYPT is the worst? A happiness bonus along with a small gold bonus (In that they pay no maintainance for temples), an UU that is pretty great for ancient era rushes (Almost on par with Atilla's Horse Archers), and an UA that, while not great at higher levels, can still help you save some hammers later on. Why would anyone consider that a BAD package?
LoneRebel
Emperor
I know, that mention of Egypt was just 
I agree that Egypt is not the worst, but personally I would rather play several of the low contenders (e.g., America, Byzantium, Denmark (iff water)) before Egypt. The happiness bonus is nice, but I hate having a building that provides a bonus to my opponents! The UU is nice for a rush strategy, but unless thats what your basing a game around, the chariot archer in general is not well loved if only because the range promotions eventually get wasted. As you wrote, the UA gets used for maybe three or four wonders, because any others are build with a GE. So yeah, meh.
I'll agree that Egypt isn't particulary spectacular, but their bonuses are decievingly strong. They're one of the few that can attempt to go for early wonders on high levels, which is easily ignored. The key about Egypt is much like the Celts; none of the bonuses seem particulary great, but it gives a nice bit of flexibility. Chariot Archers are also handy early game for city defense, as they can quickly dash from city to city and offer quite a bit of ranged strength, though their promotions do sadly get wasted. As for helping your opponent...it's not particulary hard to ensure your cities don't get taken by the AI. Multiplayer is a bit different, but even then, if your cities get taken, it's not Egypt's fault, it's your opponent outplaying you.
Agreed, one should not be losing cities to the AI! I just dislike that aspect of the UB on principle. Denmark, who I keep defending as not-the-worst, does not even have a UB! I also agree that CA are good for early defense. Since you know they are going away, you could get the march equivalent as your third promotion instead of the ranged ones. Even at Immortal/Deity, the UA gets used a few times, so that could be a few times more than certain other civ UA. Yes, I taking both sides of this, I just wanted to offer insight that maybe the Egypt nomination wasn’t just sarcasm.
I clearly meant including BNW, thus all civs. Otherwise, I would have written "incl. IN BNW". Grammar and syntax counts.
Good to hear from the OP!
Plenty of folks still bottom rank the Ottomans. Can you explain more why you dont like the others you list? Even if you never make much of SotL, longbows are arguably the best UU, and the extra spy is a nice bonus. I also avoid warring with CS as much as possible, but the Mongols UA works nicely when an AI uses a CS against you (so no need to play differently for that), Keshiks are great even without an early rush, and Khans are terrific. People generally love the Shoshone UU and UA, so could you also explain more there?
How are any of these last three more boring to play than, say, India, France, or Egypt?
Plenty of folks still bottom rank the Ottomans. Can you explain more why you dont like the others you list? Even if you never make much of SotL, longbows are arguably the best UU, and the extra spy is a nice bonus. I also avoid warring with CS as much as possible, but the Mongols UA works nicely when an AI uses a CS against you (so no need to play differently for that), Keshiks are great even without an early rush, and Khans are terrific. People generally love the Shoshone UU and UA, so could you also explain more there?
How are any of these last three more boring to play than, say, India, France, or Egypt?
seancolorado
Deity
The only civ I always do poorly with is Iroquois. I don't know if it's just bad luck over the years or what - has anybody found a good method to use them?
It's probably only preference on my part. I'm quite comfortable and prefer to not do a lot of warring - or at least did, in my present game I've initiated several. Thus, English and Mongols have been among my last choices (although I do not necessarily mean they are bad civs to achieve victories with, going for Domination). I do like the Cultural victory, so the last three you mention work quite well for me.
The Shoshone is just.. like the Iroquis, I find the native North American civs not particularly fetching. For one thing, I do not like to have a lot of forest around, and prefer to "clean up the city limits" with mines, irrigation and other non-arboreal improvements.
So to summarize, I do not mean that these are BAD civs to play, but not my cuppa. I was interested in the discussion and opinions, but I do think Ottomans are not quite up there. It's been long since I've played them though. Not a big maritime power me. Did this make any sense?
Acken
Deity
Shoshone is a top tier Civ. The ability to select ruin bonus, grab a ton of land on settlement and their scout unit are tougher than the regular scout, making steals easier. All this mean you'll just get the best early game of any civ with them.
Yeah, that is real handy. However, I've found recently that the goody hut feature hampers my play more than helps it, as the drive to find them (unconciously) overshadows my other aims. Thus, I've actually disabled them in the last couple of games. Also, I don't like how it can give a civ (me or AI) major early advantages. I'm up for a discussion on the topic though.
I can see why people would find England or the Mongols dull to play. Their power in their heyday eras is hard to ignore, but they (Mongolia especially, even though you don't have to attack City States unless their name is Venice) are pretty one-dimensional in what they do. If you don't wage mounted warfare, Mongolia is a vanilla civ.
The Iroquis are just...poor, really. An UB that is more of a handicap then a bonus. An UU that, while good in its own right, comes at a time where warmongering isn't optimal and obsoletes pretty quickly. And an UA that only really helps defensive wars if you stick with non-optimal terrain improvements. The only way the Iroquis are good is if you have a lot of Forest Deer tiles. But you'll never have enough of those around to fuel a large empire.
The Iroquis are just...poor, really. An UB that is more of a handicap then a bonus. An UU that, while good in its own right, comes at a time where warmongering isn't optimal and obsoletes pretty quickly. And an UA that only really helps defensive wars if you stick with non-optimal terrain improvements. The only way the Iroquis are good is if you have a lot of Forest Deer tiles. But you'll never have enough of those around to fuel a large empire.
Iroquois do okay in a wider game. Longhouse does indeed end up in a very minor hammer bonus and in cities with little to no forest, it could actually end up in less hammers, but I guess the point is to keep forest around for the movement bonus. And to be fair, a minor increase in hammers is about on par what a Russia would get, so it isn't like it is meant to give an overpowering bonus.
It is one of those Civs where when you look at it on paper, it is by all rights a decent Civ. Hammer potential on the perfect forest map, an iron-less swordsmen with extra perks, and free city connections. But play enough actual games with them, and it can be a chore to get them to work well. Definitely on the lower tier.
They are still one of my favorite Civs though, if you manage to get a decent map for them. I love keeping all those forest tiles around, and if you can manage to connect a few cities together with forest, it is a decent amount of coin and time saved.
It is one of those Civs where when you look at it on paper, it is by all rights a decent Civ. Hammer potential on the perfect forest map, an iron-less swordsmen with extra perks, and free city connections. But play enough actual games with them, and it can be a chore to get them to work well. Definitely on the lower tier.
They are still one of my favorite Civs though, if you manage to get a decent map for them. I love keeping all those forest tiles around, and if you can manage to connect a few cities together with forest, it is a decent amount of coin and time saved.
Acken
Deity
Russia doesn't have to sacrifice 20hammer from chopping forest to get its bonuses though
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