Need some clarification on the Research Agreement

Despite having read several googled explanations on how the R.A. works, I still don't seem to understand this feature fully.
For example, when I get a message that the research agreement is over and I expect the promised boost to my research, I don't see it. Let's say I have 11 turns left before I discover a tech, and next turn after the R.A. is over I got 10 turns left. So where is the damn boost?
Thanks people.

Are you playing vanilla, G&K or BNW?

Browd said:

Are you playing vanilla, G&K or BNW?

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BNW it is.

saamohod said:

BNW it is.

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I'd appreciate a GnK explanation if you can.

saamohod said:

BNW it is.

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In BNW, the base output of an RA (before Porcelain Tower and Scientific Revolution) will equal 5 turns of the average beaker generation rate of the RA partner with the lower beaker generation rate over the 30 turns of the RA.

BNW research agreement math:

RA beakers = n% * min(a, b)/3,

where
a = sum of your beakers over RA length
b = sum of your RA partner's beakers over RA length
n% = RA modifier % (base 50% + 25% from Scientific Revolution + 25% from Porcelain Tower)

For example, if a = 6000 beakers (average of 200 beakers/turn) and b = 3000 beakers (average of 100 beakers/turn), the base RA output (without Porcelain Tower or Scientific Revolution) for both RA partners will be 500 beakers, which represents 5 turns of average beaker production for your RA partner but only 2-1/2 turns of average beaker production for you. Accordingly, in BNW you have a strong incentive to focus your RAs on civs that will generate at least as many beakers as you. If you do RAs with civs that are lagging well below your beaker generation rate, you might only see 1 or 2 turns of research.

vra379971 said:

I'd appreciate a GnK explanation if you can.

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In G&K, the base output of an RA (before Porcelain Tower and Scientific Revolution) is based upon the two partners' combined beakers generated over the 30 turns of the RA. Your base output of a G&K RA (see details below) will always be greater than your base RA output in BNW, except where you are the RA partner who is producing the lower amount of beakers -- in that case G&K RAs and BNW RAs will have the same base output.

G&K research agreement math:

RA beakers = n% * (min(a/3, (a+b)/6)

where
a = sum of your beakers over RA length
b = sum of your RA partner's beakers over RA length
n% = RA modifier % (base 50% + 25% from Scientific Revolution + 25% from Porcelain Tower)

Using the same numbers from my earlier example, if a = 6000 beakers (average of 200 beakers/turn) and b = 3000 beakers (average of 100 beakers/turn), the base RA output (without Porcelain Tower or Scientific Revolution) for you will be 750 beakers and for your RA partner will be 500 beakers, which represents 5 turns of average beaker production for your RA partner and just under 4 turns of average beaker production for you. In G&K, your beakers/turn are the upper limit on your yield from a research agreement, while in BNW the limit is the lower of the two RA partners' beaker output (and, as noted above, if you are the partner contributing the lower amount, the G&K and BNW yields will be the same).

In addition to Browd's excellent explanation I might add that Research Agreements are pretty worthless in single player BNW, even with Rationalism and Porcelain Tower.

The AI has no idea how to min-max the science minigame and it always has pathetic /turn. Even on Deity it's not uncommon for AI to have something like 250/turn in the Atomic Era when the player can easily have 1000+ at the time. The only reason the AI can (somewhat...) keep up in science with a competent player is because of their initial tech advantage and reduced tech costs.

That explains why a finished RA gives so little it might not even advance your research by one turn. You're literally making 4 times more /turn than your RA partner, so the RA is only 25% as effective as what you'd expect.

If the AI is an era or more behind you in BNW, definitely not worth it. But if they are in the same era, then you'll get more beakers than the gold you spent. You'll still get a better return cash buying a science building, but there are points at which you've already have all tech buildings possible and the next one is a long way in the future.

According to the civ5 wiki Porcelain Tower and Scientific revolution both give +%50 each.

Individually, each of PT and SR increases the base yield of RAs by 50%, and together they double the base yield (100%). Since the base yield is 50% of the maximum, each of PT and SR contributes 25 percentage points to the total. In the xml, this is reflected by the following line in each:

<MedianTechPercentChange>25</MedianTechPercentChange>

I do sort of feel that BnW killed the Research Agreement feature. I think it was fine to have it require DoF, because that both serves as a limitation to the number of RAs you can and will form (which was out of hand before) and because it gives you an incentive to form a DoF. However, given that the output is now so bad that it's generally not worth the gold cost, they have just killed a feature without succesfully making DoF more meaningful.

If an RA saves you just two turns, the gold:beaker value is on par with what you get from rush buying science buildings.

beetle said:

If an RA saves you just two turns, the gold:beaker value is on par with what you get from rush buying science buildings.

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Can you support it by any calculations ?

I faced heated opposition on the evaluating my peaceful SV progress thread, but my ballpark math was not debunked. I will try to be a little more careful here. I am focused only on the payoff of beakers for gold, and I don't disagree that rush buying has other advantages besides beakers.

1. Estimate that rush buying a science building in a weak production gets you about 12 turns worth of extra beakers in that city.
2. Assume you have four cities, and this city is a quarter of your science, so that's roughly 3 turns of empire science.
3. For the cost of a science building, you could afford at least 2 RAs.
4. Value each RA as shaving two turns off research time, so each RA is worth 2 turns of empire science.
5. 2 RAs x 2 turns of empire science == 4 turns of empire science.
6. 4 turns of empire science > 3 turns of empire science.
7. qed: RAs have better gold:beaker value than rush buying science buildings.

This approach is very rough but it scales for era, and I think is conservative on all points, except that (4) RA payout is closer to 1.5 turns of empire science (and RA still breaks even with rush buying science buildings). OTOH people would prolly still rush buy science buildings if they were twice as expensive, so RA still a good deal. I have numbered the points so you can tell me where my logic breaks down!

@beetle

You can't compare this in this way.

Only one sentence - RA's are delayed beakers - you pay for them and wait 30 turns, with rush buy you have your science NOW!

Please explain how the beakers being delayed invalidates my logic. I think the metric of “turns of empire science” finesses the issue. Even when you are comparing buying a science building on turn (N) with kicking off two RAs that turn, the RAs still net more beakers for the gold. Is three turns of empire science at turn (N) really worth more than four turns of empire science at turn (N+30)?

But the compare both at turn (N) approach is not fair to RAs. There are very discreet points for rush buying science buildings. RAs have the strong advantage of being a continuing option after NC, so you can get them rolling early. A fair comparison is turn (N) universities to turn (N minus something) RAs. Since RAs are cheaper than buildings, a player does not have to save up as long, and can spend the gold sooner. We all know that gold spent earlier is more valuable than that spent later.

Just as gold now is more valuable than gold later, early beakers are more valuable than later beakers, especially if they get you to key tech points more quickly. For example, we all know that GSs will generate far more beakers the later they are bulbed, but it can still be advantageous to bulb a GS to, e.g., get Scientific Theory or Plastics that much more quickly or to jump to the Modern Era to grab an early Ideology.

Even if the early science building does not enhance the yield of your RA (since your RA partner is generating fewer beakers), the extra raw science for those 30 turns should not be dismissed. In your example, you assume the early science building will take 12 turns to hard-build, but that rush-buying only accelerates your next tech by 3 turns. That may be an OK assumption in general terms, except it misses the point that the early science building will accelerate every subsequent tech as well. Also, the extra science building may, at the margin, yield you one more (or at least an earlier) GS, which the RA will not do.

In any event, this is a contrived experiment. The choice is usually not (1) sign 2 RAs now and hard-build the science building over the next X turns vs. (2) cash-buy a science building now and defer that round of RAs for 30 turns. If that is your choice, you must have pitiful gpt and/or no luxury trades maturing any time soon. The more common choice, in my experience, is either (1) doing the RAs now and deferring rush-buying the science building until I have the gold or (2) rush-buying the science building now and doing one RA a few turns later and another some number of turns after that, perhaps funded with renewed lux and strategic resource trades, or a gpt for gold trade with the RA partner (assuming your RA partner has the gold). I usually do (1), if for no other reason than an ill-timed denunciation or DOW will kill the RA, but the science building will keep chugging along. Also, except right after researching Education, I think it is rare to be able to sign two RAs on the same turn -- usually one or more AIs lack the gold.

@beetle: before you continue to go on about how much better RA's are, shouldn't you have BNW first, so you at least have some first hand experience with the new RA system?

I can add to what Browd said that science from RAs unlike from science buildings has no impact on amount of science from GSs bulbing.

Information for the people which care on the quickest possible victory and read this thread - there is no doubt that rush buy science buildings is better in your turns time finish.

RAs really differ from vanilla, gnk and bnw. I don't find RAs being that beneficial because they often do give that research boost and most of the time you don't get as much research. Another thing that is possible during RAs is that you pay off money for research that other people can usually steal. Its like if you were funding research for other civilizations when other civilizations can simple spy and steal your technologies.
Unless you go for the rationalism social policy tree and build the porcelain tower or somehow obtain the porcelain tower.