Tech Tree Discussion

So is portable shelters a meaningless tech with nomads turned off? If so is it possible for the tech to be modular also?

You can still build the Yurt and Teepee buildings which are not Nomadic stuff. So no Portable Shelters tech has a benefit even if Nomadic start is turned off.

The only techs which may not have a purpose with it off are Soft-Hammer Percussion, Piercing and Scraping. I have no idea what to put at that those techs but added them since that's what DH wanted. Personally I would have just put Hard-Hammer Percussion, Soft-Hammer Percussion, Chopping, Piercing and Scraping all into one single tech (aka Stone Working).
 
I noticed when I posted my list of tech breakdowns by era that the Medieval era is the shortest on current technologies. I would like to propose two changes to help remedy this.

First, split Invention into two technologies. One is Alchemy, the other is Invention. For those of you who don't look at the XML, Invention is actually TECH_ALCHEMY. TECH_ALCHEMY would become Alchemy, and a new TECH_INVENTION would be created.

The new techs would be:

Alchemy
Location: X37 Y9 (moving Engineering back to X35 Y17)
Cost: 800
Req Techs: Drug Trade AND Glass Blowing AND Philosophy AND (Engineering OR Theology)
Leads to: Invention, Optics, Paper, Stained Glass
Allows: Alchemist's Lab, Ancient Hand Cannon, Yusuf ibn Tashfin, Reveals Rubber, Obsoletes Belladonna, Obsoletes Curare, Obsoletes Death Cap Mushroom, Obsoletes Poison Crafter

Invention
Location: X37 Y13
Cost: 1050
Req Techs: Alchemy AND Civil Service AND (Agricultural Tools OR Guilds)
Leads to: Armored Cavalry, Clockworks, Gunpowder, Mountaineering, Perspective, Printing Press
Allows: Artesian Well, Ice Cream Parlor, +1 gold from Furniture Workshop, Heavy Cavalry, Reveals Ice Cream, Leonardo's Workshop
(These are what would have to be changed to TECH_INVENTION. Everything else could stay at TECH_ALCHEMY)

I would also suggest moving Engineering back to X35 Y17. It's at the very beginning of the Medieval era, and so moving it back gives a little extra room. The X35 column has only Feudalism and Theology.

Changed Techs

Engineering
Location: X35 Y17

Optics
Required Techs: Alchemy

Paper
Required Techs: Guilds AND (Civil Service OR Theology OR Alchemy)

Stained Glass
Required Techs: Alchemy AND Architecture

Education
Required Techs: Paper AND Stained Glass
(Adding Alchemy to Stained Glass puts Philosophy in the chain)

Second, move Gunpowder back into the Medieval era. It can stay where it is or be moved back to X41 Y5. The invention of gunpowder itself is very late Medieval, and firearms (the Matchlock technology) is Renaissance.

What do you think?
 
@Vokarya

Its hard to pick if Hand Cannon should go under Invention or Alchemy. Same goes for ice cream.

Overall it looks good. I will see if we can get these changed after the freeze.

I thought I would split it up a bit. That's why I put the Hand Cannon at Alchemy (keeping Heavy Cavalry at Invention) and the Ice Cream at Invention. I admit it can go either way.
 
You can still build the Yurt and Teepee buildings which are not Nomadic stuff. So no Portable Shelters tech has a benefit even if Nomadic start is turned off.

The only techs which may not have a purpose with it off are Soft-Hammer Percussion, Piercing and Scraping. I have no idea what to put at that those techs but added them since that's what DH wanted. Personally I would have just put Hard-Hammer Percussion, Soft-Hammer Percussion, Chopping, Piercing and Scraping all into one single tech (aka Stone Working).

I'm not certain, but I strongly suspect it might throw the AI off, because it sees Nomads as enabled by this tech, and will value Nomads highly. It has no way to realise it won't actually be able to build them (at least unless I blanket change it to consider units that cannot be directly built useless in all circumstances, which would probably distort things elsewhere). How does the mechanic for nomads building more nomads work in the nomadic start? Is it necessary for it to have this tech dependence in the XML for that mechanic to work? Could it trigger off a promotion or something instead?
 
I'm not certain, but I strongly suspect it might throw the AI off, because it sees Nomads as enabled by this tech, and will value Nomads highly. It has no way to realise it won't actually be able to build them (at least unless I blanket change it to consider units that cannot be directly built useless in all circumstances, which would probably distort things elsewhere). How does the mechanic for nomads building more nomads work in the nomadic start? Is it necessary for it to have this tech dependence in the XML for that mechanic to work? Could it trigger off a promotion or something instead?

With the current XML there are two nomad units, the band and the nomadic camp. Neither are buildable. The band has always been that way. The nomadic camp is new and currently assigned to that tech. There will be others available at later techs.

The mechanic for nomadic units building anything is that your unit wanders around collecting stuff. When you have enough stuff Outcome Actions become available for choice, ie a button becomes available and you can build that thing.

Currently in the demo you can build :-
  • a defender unit (stone thrower)
  • a recon unit (a wanderer)
  • a science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:
  • a bigger science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:

I was going to add a bunch of promotions available to be built by and for the unit at different techs. Some improve the attack or defense bonus of the unit others how well it gathers stuff. I have not had enough time to add such things.

I was also going to suggest some promotions that auto convert to buildings when you settle down.

EDIT The AI knows it can't build the units, in the same way it knows it can't build Great People or wild animals. They all have an icost = -1 at the moment.
 
With the current XML there are two nomad units, the band and the nomadic camp. Neither are buildable. The band has always been that way. The nomadic camp is new and currently assigned to that tech. There will be others available at later techs.

The mechanic for nomadic units building anything is that your unit wanders around collecting stuff. When you have enough stuff Outcome Actions become available for choice, ie a button becomes available and you can build that thing.

Currently in the demo you can build :-
  • a defender unit (stone thrower)
  • a recon unit (a wanderer)
  • a science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:
  • a bigger science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:

Yes, but it (the AI) ASSUMES that enabling techs will make the units available by some as-yet-unrevealed mechanic, and therefore counts the unit value into the tech value, and potentially beelines it because of that. A way to avoid this would be to make the outcome's availability dependent on a promotion (rather than requiring a tech at all), make the promotion dependent on the tech, and give the unit that promotion (which cannot be earned any other way) automatically. The effect on avauilability is exactly as before, but the extra level of removal from the tech would be enough to stop the AI making any assumptions about it.

Alternatively I could stop the AI valuing (in tech values) any enabled units that cannot be directly built, but I'm worried this would distort something somewhere else. Apart from great people (none of which require any techs do they?) are there any other units which are not directly buildable? (if there aren't, and all GPs are tech-independent, then there is nothing to distort and I could safely make that change).

Edit - is there a reason why the unit itself is not part of what gets modularly loaded?
 
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(

ie: I have taken the low techs, meaning mainly the lower bottom half of the tech tree and left the top half almost alone, and i have gone now, over 200 turns (on Snail) with nothing to build, i have my city on Meager Wealth, and now Less Wealth for almost all this time??? No new units even have come in yet to upgrade to??
 
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(

ie: I have taken the low techs, meaning mainly the lower bottom half of the tech tree and left the top half almost alone, and i have gone now, over 200 turns (on Snail) with nothing to build, i have my city on Meager Wealth, and now Less Wealth for almost all this time??? No new units even have come in yet to upgrade to??

I agree, but I'm not too concerned, as this tech tree is really only half-implemented, as the Nomads will not be arriving at least until DH gets back. I think that when the Nomad mod gets fully integrated things will be much more interesting in the Prehistoric Era.
 
I agree, but I'm not too concerned, as this tech tree is really only half-implemented, as the Nomads will not be arriving at least until DH gets back. I think that when the Nomad mod gets fully integrated things will be much more interesting in the Prehistoric Era.
Nomad start is supposed to be an option so I think the tech tree should also work without it.
 
Nomad start is supposed to be an option so I think the tech tree should also work without it.

I have the nomad option set to 1 so i have it on, (Yeah i keep forgetting that DH is going to add a few things to the darn tech tree for more items, i tell ya my mind sometimes is just like eating ice cream alot, Brain Freeze!!:blush:

Spoiler :
Code:
				<Module>
					<Directory>NomadDemo</Directory>
					<bLoad>1</bLoad>
				</Module>


same as Koshlings

Spoiler :
Code:
  <Define>
    <!-- Set to non-0 value to enable dynamic activation of unit graphics entities (reduced memory usage and growth) -->
    <DefineName>ENABLE_DYNAMIC_UNIT_ENTITIES</DefineName>
    <iDefineIntVal>-0</iDefineIntVal>
  </Define>

I hope i got both working, but it doesnt seem to do anything, except the units look like they are speed demons once there at a spot then all of a sudden they are at another spot, like the commercial, Zoom Zoom Zoom:crazyeye:
 
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(

I tried to fill the tree up with more stuff to do during the Prehistoric Era.

There are a few ways we could fix it...

1. Add more stuff to do (not sure what)

2. Make more of the early techs cheap.

Since nomad stuff is not going to be worked on until DH returns then we will just have to keep tweaking with those choices. I have thought about an updated tech cost chart. Not sure if you want to do it during the freeze or not.
 
I tried to fill the tree up with more stuff to do during the Prehistoric Era.

There are a few ways we could fix it...

1. Add more stuff to do (not sure what)

2. Make more of the early techs cheap.

Since nomad stuff is not going to be worked on until DH returns then we will just have to keep tweaking with those choices. I have thought about an updated tech cost chart. Not sure if you want to do it during the freeze or not.

Lets see what the regular modders say first, but by me, its ok.
 
Lets see what the regular modders say first, but by me, its ok.

Well right now its ...
Spoiler :
X1 = 5
X2 = 5
X3 = 5
X4 = 5
X5 = 10
X6 = 15
X7 = 20
X8 = 25
X9 = 30
X10 = 35
X11 = 40
X12 = 45
X13 = 50
X14 = 55
X15 = 60
X16 = 65
X17 = 70
X18 = 75
X19 = 80
X20 = 85
X21 = 90
X22 = 95
X23 = 100
X24 = 105
X25 = 110[
/QUOTE]
Perhaps like this ...

Spoiler :
X1 = 5
X2 = 6
X3 = 7
X4 = 8
X5 = 9
X6 = 10
X7 = 11
X8 = 12
X9 = 13
X10 = 14
X11 = 15
X12 = 20
X13 = 25
X14 = 30
X15 = 40
X16 = 50
X17 = 60
X18 = 70
X19 = 80
X20 = 85
X21 = 90
X22 = 95
X23 = 100
X24 = 105
X25 = 110
X26 = 115

However do you think its too steep of a chnage from X12 to X19? Note I did not chnage X19 to X26. The problem I think if we make them too cheap is early stuff will just go obsolete to fast that you do not have any time to build them.

I am not sure what to do. I guess we did not realize how perfect my old perfect my old prehistoric era setup was. It took us forever to get it working so well. Its only now that is out of balance we realize how balanced it was before.
 
Well right now its ...
Spoiler :
X1 = 5
X2 = 5
X3 = 5
X4 = 5
X5 = 10
X6 = 15
X7 = 20
X8 = 25
X9 = 30
X10 = 35
X11 = 40
X12 = 45
X13 = 50
X14 = 55
X15 = 60
X16 = 65
X17 = 70
X18 = 75
X19 = 80
X20 = 85
X21 = 90
X22 = 95
X23 = 100
X24 = 105
X25 = 110[
/QUOTE]
Perhaps like this ...



However do you think its too steep of a change from X12 to X19? Note I did not change X19 to X26. The problem I think if we make them too cheap is early stuff will just go obsolete to fast that you do not have any time to build them.

I am not sure what to do. I guess we did not realize how perfect my old perfect my old prehistoric era setup was. It took us forever to get it working so well. Its only now that is out of balance we realize how balanced it was before.

I completely agree before was waaay better, and actually very "FUN" to play cause something was happening ALL the time!!

For one thing the units now are too spread out and far in-between.
 
Well if we can get a caveman looking unit without a weapon we can at least add one to the early game. I could try to think up some more but I suspect there is really not going to be too much to choose from at such a primitive technology level.

You are absolutely correct there, and NO graphics people will do units anymore.
I just think we separated them to far apart is all, maybe added to many "indifferent" tech, all meaning the same thing but are really "minors" of what the big major techs are the same of, if i am explaining this correctly:crazyeye::confused:

ie: Hunting and Hunting Tactics?? Separate Atlatl Making?? why?? See what i am trying to say??
 
Yes, but it (the AI) ASSUMES that enabling techs will make the units available by some as-yet-unrevealed mechanic, and therefore counts the unit value into the tech value, and potentially beelines it because of that. A way to avoid this would be to make the outcome's availability dependent on a promotion (rather than requiring a tech at all), make the promotion dependent on the tech, and give the unit that promotion (which cannot be earned any other way) automatically. The effect on avauilability is exactly as before, but the extra level of removal from the tech would be enough to stop the AI making any assumptions about it.

Alternatively I could stop the AI valuing (in tech values) any enabled units that cannot be directly built, but I'm worried this would distort something somewhere else. Apart from great people (none of which require any techs do they?) are there any other units which are not directly buildable? (if there aren't, and all GPs are tech-independent, then there is nothing to distort and I could safely make that change).

There is no reason for not having the unit be buildable due to a promotion. It would work. Of course you would then not be able to see when it becomes available in tech tree.:mischief: Edit However it will introduce a bigger problem later if we have multiple of these nomad units and get the way the definition for the way nomad units can build units generalised.

Edit - is there a reason why the unit itself is not part of what gets modularly loaded?

I was working on the promotions at the time so it got put in there. I will move it to the demo module.
 
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(

ie: I have taken the low techs, meaning mainly the lower bottom half of the tech tree and left the top half almost alone, and i have gone now, over 200 turns (on Snail) with nothing to build, i have my city on Meager Wealth, and now Less Wealth for almost all this time??? No new units even have come in yet to upgrade to??

Precisely, glad im not the only one who think as much. Thats why I feel I have to edit xml to speed prehistoric up coz it becomes monotonous and frustrating.
 
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