What do you think about Anti - Mounted upgrade path?

What do you think about current Anti - Cavalry unit upgrade path?

  • Current system is OK. (Pikemen - Lancers - AT guns - Helicopters)

    Votes: 8 13.6%

  • Pikemen should upgrade to Musketmen. Lancers and AT guns should be standalone units.

    Votes: 14 23.7%

  • Pikemen should upgrade to Musketmen, Knights to Lancers.

    Votes: 16 27.1%

  • Current Anti - Cavalry line should be extended and rebalanced.

    Votes: 21 35.6%
  • Total voters
    59
So in the Renaissance you have the Lancer, Tercio, and Musket? You'd need to up muskets' Str to deal with Tercios; but that would make the jump from musket to rifle too small. Or, set Tercios' Str to 20 or so; but that's not enough of a jump from Pikes. The lines converge, with rifles... why not just have them converge earlier at muskets? Maybe give pikes Promotion_Formation instead of Promotion_Anti_Mounted so that it survives the upgrade process. And give swordsmen a different promotion, so that they will be different when upgraded to muskets.

Frankly you could approximate the rock-paper-scissor specialization just with promotions, rather than using whole unit classes and shoehorning them into terrible upgrade lines. Yet another thing Civ4 did extremely well. I really wonder why promotions are so nerfed in Civ5. Why do Shock and Drill have to precede anything useful? Why can't we have promotions like City Raider, Medic, Formation, anti-melee, anti-armor et al. from 15 xp?
 
Krajzen said:
So please release this Balance Mod on the steam workshop :D
Click to expand...
It's still work in progress, like I said there are many other things involved in this mod ... beliefs, policies, new techs, new buildings ... Maybe one day, if and when I consider it finished.

subtledoctor said:
So in the Renaissance you have the Lancer, Tercio, and Musket? You'd need to up muskets' Str to deal with Tercios; but that would make the jump from musket to rifle too small. Or, set Tercios' Str to 20 or so; but that's not enough of a jump from Pikes. The lines converge, with rifles... why not just have them converge earlier at muskets? Maybe give pikes Promotion_Formation instead of Promotion_Anti_Mounted so that it survives the upgrade process. And give swordsmen a different promotion, so that they will be different when upgraded to muskets.
Click to expand...
I have:
Pike = 15 (+100 % vs. mounted)
Longsword = 19 (+25 % vs. cities) (but comes on level earlier than in normal game)
Knights = 24
Musket = 24
Tercio = 23 (+100 % vs. mounted) (but comes one level after Musket)
Lancer = 28
Cavalry = 40

I sure you can always find arguments as to why some of these values are not perfect and ideas for other solutions that may accomplish things this doesn't, but it works for me.
 
Those values seem fine; particular values are pretty arbitrary, you just have to change multiple units in sync, to retain balance. But even if those values are perfect, I still see a problem, which is that Lancers at Metallurgy are only a single tech ahead of cavalry. It's just a function of working within this condensed tech tree, where each era is only 'two techs long.' By the time you actually build a lancer or two, you can have the tech for cavs. The 'pedia description has them dominating the Renaissance... but by the time you build some the Renaissance is over! I'd like to move them earlier, but Lancers at Printing Press... makes no sense. You could move them to gunpowder, but then you could build Lancers without ever teching Horseback Riding! Sigh. Every change affects many other things, there's no perfect solution.

That's why I thought to move (slightly weakened) Knights back to Civil Service, and move (slightly differentiated) Lancers back to Chivalry. Chivalry has two other prerequisite techs, so it's unlikely you'll go straight there from Civil Service; and even if you do, giving the Lancer different characteristics and resource requirements means that Knights won't necessarily be obsolete. Moving this Renaissance unit to the medieval era is a bit of a big deal, but it's at the end of the medieval era, and it lets you use them all through the Renaissance. But to each his own - I'm not arguing for one thing or another, just brainstorming.
 
subtledoctor said:
Those values seem fine; particular values are pretty arbitrary, you just have to change multiple units in sync, to retain balance. But even if those values are perfect, I still see a problem, which is that Lancers at Metallurgy are only a single tech ahead of cavalry. It's just a function of working within this condensed tech tree, where each era is only 'two techs long.' By the time you actually build a lancer or two, you can have the tech for cavs. The 'pedia description has them dominating the Renaissance... but by the time you build some the Renaissance is over! I'd like to move them earlier, but Lancers at Printing Press... makes no sense. You could move them to gunpowder, but then you could build Lancers without ever teching Horseback Riding! Sigh. Every change affects many other things, there's no perfect solution.

That's why I thought to move (slightly weakened) Knights back to Civil Service, and move (slightly differentiated) Lancers back to Chivalry. Chivalry has two other prerequisite techs, so it's unlikely you'll go straight there from Civil Service; and even if you do, giving the Lancer different characteristics and resource requirements means that Knights won't necessarily be obsolete. Moving this Renaissance unit to the medieval era is a bit of a big deal, but it's at the end of the medieval era, and it lets you use them all through the Renaissance. But to each his own - I'm not arguing for one thing or another, just brainstorming.
Click to expand...
I'm definitely not a fan of how the game distributed the units un-evenly over the eras either. Currently, I don't have the Lancer upgrade to Cavalry, Lancer upgrades to Airship (Steam Engine) which then upgrades to Helicopter Gunship. At the moment, I consider these units sort of skirmisher untis, i.e. units you send in to take out weak units, weaken ranged units, etc.

In time, I intend to change this upgrade line completely into a "mounted"-ranged upgrade line with range 1 but move-after-attacking ability. This upgrade line will be:
Chariot Archer -> "Horse Archer*" -> Dragoon (replaces Lancer) -> Airship (ranged) -> Helicopter Gunship (ranged)
All these units will have a range of 1 as mentioned above. The Dragoon could get the Cavalry graphic model (fits a ranged unit), the Cavalry could get the Lancer graphic model. The "Horse Archer" will be a new unit type (will probably take from Huns), and the Keshik and Camel Archer will change to be unique equivalents of this unit.
 
My main problem with your upgrade line is Airship which is well not very historical and realistic :D
 
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