SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Turnset Report T70-T77

T70
per plan

T71
Hinduism spreads to Marble City!
Hammy completes Iron Working
Toku now threatens with axes

T72
Hatty builds city #4
Osaka builds Rax
Hatty has a Drill II archer hanging around Osaka

T73
We switch epps to Hatty. The amount needed to see Toku's graphs is rising only 1pt and Hammy's isn't rising at all.
Osaka's borders expand but we keep the corn
Hammy settles Nippur, city #4
Hammy builds an axe or sword
Toku completes Sailing

T74
We discover COPPER!!! At the mined shared by Delhi and NC. That screws up all my Delhi MM. Such is life... ;)
Osaka has a second defender with CGII :(

T75
GEL loses the corn, as expected
A barb warrior present himself on the path to Hammy. We'll try to bypass it.
No Hammy culture in sight, so ZLatorog will put the chop into completing the granary.
Hatty's scout is trapped to the east of Marble City. We'll use him to gain WarSuccess when the time comes.

T76
2 barb warriors now to the NW. Again we attempt to avoid battle.
Osaka builds an axe

T77
Osaka's axe vanishes
One barb warrior and .4HP barb archer next to our axe. We fortify to see what happens, because moving forward might expose us to attacks by 2 warriors and the archer, plus who konws what else.

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Stopping for a break
 
Wow. Hammy's far enough away that we can safely ignore his stack for now.

Well done at spreading Hinduism and popping copper!
 
LC: are there enough barbs around that you can pick them off and get towards 10XP?
 
LC: are there enough barbs around that you can pick them off and get towards 10XP?
That would be great wouldn't it? We'll see. The warriors only give 2XP on forest hills (or forest/river) but I haven't had that chance. I'm hoping the archer attacks for no damage and maybe the warrior too. The 2XP would give us a promotion for quicker healing in case we get hit hard. I don't really want to take too much damage though, I don't think, because the goal is scouting right now, right? The barbs have already slowed that down a couple of turns.
 
Ha, just as I was thinking that Neilmeister gave us so many Gold squares to reduce the chance of popping another Resource (since teams would work a higher percentage of Hills squares that already have a Resource compared to working a ton of Resourceless Hills), you go and pop something out of one.

It's about time that Hinduism spread.

It's also about time that Toku built an Axeman... I'm still wagering that his capital was settled on top of Copper.

One random thought: if and when we get the Corn back, be sure to work it. The City Governor may be of use to turn on for GEL if you like the square assignments that he makes without having access to the Corn (so that he'll switch to the Corn as soon as we get it back).


How many Axemen are we going to commit to staying by the Hammurabi chokepoint? Just 1, in addition to the one that is exploring toward him or perhaps 0, with the thinking that we can always whip some more later, if needed?


Do we know yet if Hammurabi's capital is further away than we placed it in our test game?


I'm not sure what the Barb situation is like, but won't we get +2 XP for every attack that we make, even if it's a 99% chance of winning? If that's the case, and if the positioning of the Barb units allows, should we consider killing one of them off ourselves, instead of just getting +1 XP per unit that attacks us?

I mean, it's nice to keep some Barbs alive between us and Hammy, but if the Barbs are going to attack us ANYWAY, then it's not like we'd be keeping them alive by defending.
 
Ha, just as I was thinking that Neilmeister gave us so many Gold squares to reduce the chance of popping another Resource (since teams would work a higher percentage of Hills squares that already have a Resource compared to working a ton of Resourceless Hills), you go and pop something out of one.

It's about time that Hinduism spread.

It's also about time that Toku built an Axeman... I'm still wagering that his capital was settled on top of Copper.

One random thought: if and when we get the Corn back, be sure to work it. The City Governor may be of use to turn on for GEL if you like the square assignments that he makes without having access to the Corn (so that he'll switch to the Corn as soon as we get it back).


How many Axemen are we going to commit to staying by the Hammurabi chokepoint? Just 1, in addition to the one that is exploring toward him or perhaps 0, with the thinking that we can always whip some more later, if needed?


Do we know yet if Hammurabi's capital is further away than we placed it in our test game?


I'm not sure what the Barb situation is like, but won't we get +2 XP for every attack that we make, even if it's a 99% chance of winning? If that's the case, and if the positioning of the Barb units allows, should we consider killing one of them off ourselves, instead of just getting +1 XP per unit that attacks us?

I mean, it's nice to keep some Barbs alive between us and Hammy, but if the Barbs are going to attack us ANYWAY, then it's not like we'd be keeping them alive by defending.

If the power ratio is greater than 2:1, we only get 1XP on attack.
 
I always check with the alt key and hovering over the victim. It tells whether it will be 1XP or 2XP or more and it also gives the likely amount of damage, etc.

How many axes we put at the chokepoint will depend on teh SoD, but I assume about 3 well-fortified axes would do the trick. Maybe four, because just letting them suicide on us will be enough for IW, by my calcs, so that will be great. The hard part might be taking down Toku, with all the units he's producing. The punk stopped his Asoka granary build and hasn't gone back to it.
 
Turnset Report T78-T80

T78
Hinduism spreads to Nature's Chandi (actually last turn but I missed it :))
Toku has Iron Working
We can see sheep on the landmass across the water from NC. Can't determine if it's an island or not.

T79
We spy Hammy's borders and the Great Wall. His SoD needs at least 8 turns to reach the choke point.

With the next axe coming out of Zlatorog in 1 turn, I decided to open up the choke point to allow barbs to lemming themselves for XP. If our axe attacks the barb warriors across the river to the choke point, he gets 2XP. For all three units, that should be 5XP. OF course, others may spawn before that. Hopefully, we'll survive... ;)

T80
I moved our axe/scout 1W just to spy more of Hammy's land. All other movements are left for Dhoom.


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Notes for Dhoom:
1. I've marked the pre-roads, pre-chops, pre-farms, pre-mines (hopefullly)
2. Both Marble and GEL can put 4h into axes this turn, the 2pop them next turn for 3 more axes and a spear.
3. You'll need to check the Espionage screen each turn to monitor Hammy's requirements for his graphs. Pretty soon we'll have to do a 3/1 ratio for Hatty/Hammy.
4. Check out our power graph in the SG15 Progress screen. :D
5. EDIT: The hill at ZLatorog-SSE is pre-roaded too.

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Save uploaded

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In the Zip folder are REAL SAVES!!!
 

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Well played, LC.

Shall we target a t82 DoW? That will let our axe at NC pick off Toku's wounded Archer on flatland, meaning we can send the one currently in Marble off to join the stack.
 
Advance notice: I'll be away, and likely won't be online at all, for a week starting on Tuesday. It definitely makes sense for Dhoom to take this next turnset. :)
 
Great turnset, LC! :goodjob:

LowtherCastle said:
With the next axe coming out of Zlatorog in 1 turn, I decided to open up the choke point to allow barbs to lemming themselves for XP. If our axe attacks the barb warriors across the river to the choke point, he gets 2XP. For all three units, that should be 5XP. OF course, others may spawn before that. Hopefully, we'll survive...
I'm not sure that I follow exactly what you are saying, but hopefully after having looked at the saved game, it will make sense to me.

Does the test saved game reflect the actual location of Hammy's closest City (either his capital or his non-capital if it isn't his captial)?

Does the test saved game reflect the Barb units that we can and cannot see?

Other than Espionage Weighting, are there other possible differences between the test saved game and the real saved game that you didn't look to completely accurately sync-up, such as Culture in each City or anything else?

I can adjust things in the test saved game, as necessary, but it will help if you can think of anything that might need to be altered; thanks.


LowtherCastle said:
1. I've marked the pre-roads, pre-chops, pre-farms, pre-mines (hopefullly)
2. Both Marble and GEL can put 4h into axes this turn, the 2pop them next turn for 3 more axes and a spear.
3. You'll need to check the Espionage screen each turn to monitor Hammy's requirements for his graphs. Pretty soon we'll have to do a 3/1 ratio for Hatty/Hammy.
1. Thanks. BtS at least tells us if you hover your mouse over a square, but the signs will be of infinitely more help.
2. Good call. I guess if we're attacking soon, then this round may be one of the final rounds of whipping before we attack, right?
3. I'm not a big fan of multi-AI spending, but okay, we've made the choice so I'll try and keep an eye on that. Any tips on what part of the Espionage screen that I will need to monitor? Like, will the screen say something like "79 EPs needed for Demographic Data" and then if we have 83 EPs invested, I'd better think about re-applying some Weighting to Hammy?


LowtherCastle said:
We spy Hammy's borders and the Great Wall. His SoD needs at least 8 turns to reach the choke point.
Just to play devil's advocate, how much of the coastline have you been able to monitor? For example, could a train of Galleys potentially pop out of the fog to surprise me?
 
I find the game infinitely more fun to follow and easy to discuss with a few screenshots of the relevant situation. I believe that magnusmarcus would agree.

As such, below are some screenshots that depict the current overview of our empire, as well as our Catapult and Axemen troop deployments.

In this first screenshot, we see just how far away Hammurabi is from us. Personally, I'm not a big fan of leaving the chokepoint undefended for two reasons:
a) It would be nice to be able to not worry about Barbs coming at me while I'm fighting Toku
AND
b) It would be nice to have some visibility of the water... we can see across a Lake but not if we run away from the chokepoint



I'm not sure if it will be safe to move our Warrior back onto our chokepoint Forest... it would be nice if LC could ascertain that we would be safe to move there. Worst case, we are "back to square one" and have to first move the Warrior 1W onto the GRiv just to see if there is a Barb unit to the north, then move to the chokepoint. Here's a picture of what we'd see of the Coast by being at the chokepoint:



Note, however, that if we want to ascertain that we'll see any 2-movement-point fleet of Galleys, we'll want to be on the GRiv that is 1NW of the GRiv For chokepoint... which is a square that also happens to be a chokepoint. However, what I'll probably need to do is send an Axeman to that square.

See this test game image to see what I mean. In particular, the incoming Galleys will either move from "A" to "A" squares or "B" to "B" squares, such that the Galleys will be unable to hide from us if they are travelling in a direct route toward our nearest City.



Here you can see more of our empire from the real game.



In the south, you can see the trapped Scout of Hatty's that was discussed, as well as Toku's Archer that we'll need to deal with.



In the east, you can see the majority of our army, as well as the defenders that Toku has in the real game (2 Archers, one with an extra City Defence promotion).



I will have to alter this "zero Spearmen finesse," since an extra Spearman or two in place of an Axeman or two isn't really going to hurt when capturing a City but not having any could royally screw us if Hatty decides to attack us, say via a dogpile or via being bribed by Toku.



Our Catapults are mostly in position in the east, although I'm thinking that we might want more of them before I even declare war... I would rather have overkill than come up short and be forced to attack with 3 or 4 Axemen at, say, 43% odds of winning and then end up not taking Toku's capital.
 
I think that it is good that we have yet to decide whether to generate the next Great Scientist in either Delhi or Nature's Chandi, as we have the flexibility to pick either location, thanks to having hired the Scientist Specialists at the same time as each other.

I am leaning heavily toward generating Great Scientist #2 in Delhi and #3 in NC (which should happen automatically if they tie for the time of being generated, since the order in which Cities were settled will be the tie-breaker).

The reason is that if we aren't likely to get a Forge in time to alter the Great-Person-generation timing, we might as well continue to work 2 Scientists in NC for a long period of time, as it has less awesome squares to work.

As a side note, it is interesting to note that the popped Copper can be worked by either Delhi or NC.


I am less scared about needing to defend Zlatorog and more scared about needing to potentially defend NC from a naval assault. We'll have less time to react to such an attack, since Galleys can "march" two squares and can even do so diagonally in many cases where land units would otherwise have to "march around" Coast squares or Peaks.

Thus, I am tempted to have our advance scouting Axeman, the one near Hammurabi, get close enough to the Coast to see incoming Galleys. In the meantime, I'm thinking of probably moving the Axeman out of Zlatorog to the GRiv that is 1NW of the GRiv For chokepoint location and is also a chokepoint, so that we can see any Galleys that have already been sent out at us... he could always move back to either the GRiv For chokepoint or further SE of there if we really want to lure Barb units, that is, as soon as our north-west Axeman is in a position to be able to watch the Coast and we've waited a few turns for any potential stack of Hammurabi's Galleys to have already been visible at our homelands (meaning that there is no such incoming stack).


If no one objects, I'm thinking of having the freedom to clear-cut any and all remaining Forests within our Cultural Borders and put them into Military Units.

Whatever Forests that I don't cut can always be Chopped at a later date into Wonders for future Failure Gold, but more important for now is ensuring that we have solid war success without having to lose too high of a proportion of our army just to achieve said success. It will be nice, for example, not to have to "defend" Toku's capital with our last attacker, since we'd probably lose the City in a counter-attack anyway.


We are working some unimproved squares in both GEL and Marble City, so I don't feel guilty about whipping in those locations, even if doing so will lead to unhappiness (muahahahaha).
 
Dhoom:
1) Possibility of a naval assault from Hammy. I don't view this as very likely. We can see that Babylon doesn't look like it's on the (south-)west coast. The land even appears to dip south.
If we do see a naval stack, it still doesn't mean very many land units. 2 galleys = 4 units which is not a threat because we can whip two axemen very quickly.

2) Spearmen for Toku, in case of Hatty dogpile. Having one instead of an axe isn't a problem. More than that are unnecessary to start with - Hatty can't be very close because he and Toku don't have close borders tension with each other. Having more than one also could pose problems attacking Kyoto, since Toku can now have Axemen, we need to be sure that our killer units aren't at an even bigger disadvantage than just attacking across the river onto a hill-castle.
 
I'm not sure that I follow exactly what you are saying, but hopefully after having looked at the saved game, it will make sense to me.
Barbs are now coming to attack us, because we withdrew the warrior from the choke point. Our axe can wait on the deer tile (or Zlat-W) and attack across the river any unpromoted barb warrior who arrives at the forested chokepoint for 2XP. This will rapidly get us our 10XP unit, which otherwise can take a long time. We just need to allow barbs to keep spawning.

1. Yes, you could move our warrior to the tile southeast of the lake so he can see what's coming. Just don't choke at choke point or 1NW which is also a choke point.
2. I agree with ZPV. We have never seen a Hammy or any other wb come along the western coast. AIs ALWAYS send out scouting wbs. For Hammy to have an armada, he'd have to build it in a secondary city, which is possible not likely. Plus, I doubt AIs are even coded to create armadas when they have a land route. By all means, move our scouting axe westward to see the coast a bit, but don't worry about an armada. Worry about a 10XP unit. :)

Does the test saved game reflect the actual location of Hammy's closest City (either his capital or his non-capital if it isn't his captial)?

Does the test saved game reflect the Barb units that we can and cannot see?

Other than Espionage Weighting, are there other possible differences between the test saved game and the real saved game that you didn't look to completely accurately sync-up, such as Culture in each City or anything else?

I can adjust things in the test saved game, as necessary, but it will help if you can think of anything that might need to be altered; thanks.
No, I didn't bother with barbs or Hammy.

The city MM is perfect except NC is 1:culture: short in the test save.



2. Good call. I guess if we're attacking soon, then this round may be one of the final rounds of whipping before we attack, right?
Hopefully, we need population to work cottages and lower our unit costs slightly.
3. I'm not a big fan of multi-AI spending, but okay, we've made the choice so I'll try and keep an eye on that. Any tips on what part of the Espionage screen that I will need to monitor? Like, will the screen say something like "79 EPs needed for Demographic Data" and then if we have 83 EPs invested, I'd better think about re-applying some Weighting to Hammy?
Let me konw if this is understandible.





Just to play devil's advocate, how much of the coastline have you been able to monitor? For example, could a train of Galleys potentially pop out of the fog to surprise me?
None, basically. Don't forget, Hammy has been REXing up to now. He just switched to WHEOOHRN on T68. It's very complicated for him to 1) build galleys, 2) build a group head for each galley, 3) move the group head to his port city, 4) attach another unit to the group head, 5) load the galley, 6) send the galleys, especially this early in the game and especially when he doesn't regularly build attack units (group heads), but rather defensive and counter units.

In this first screenshot, we see just how far away Hammurabi is from us. Personally, I'm not a big fan of leaving the chokepoint undefended for two reasons:
a) It would be nice to be able to not worry about Barbs coming at me while I'm fighting Toku
AND
b) It would be nice to have some visibility of the water... we can see across a Lake but not if we run away from the chokepoint
Spoiler :
I'm not sure if it will be safe to move our Warrior back onto our chokepoint Forest... it would be nice if LC could ascertain that we would be safe to move there. Worst case, we are "back to square one" and have to first move the Warrior 1W onto the GRiv just to see if there is a Barb unit to the north, then move to the chokepoint. Here's a picture of what we'd see of the Coast by being at the chokepoint:
Spoiler :
I think you made a typo there. It should read:
a) I'm simply lusting for waves of barbs to come give our Hammy repellers lots of XP. ;)
I recommend you put the warrior just southeast of the lake so you can see if a nasty archer is about to arrive. If so, Just send our axe to the choke point and the archer will either turn around or sucide itself at bad odds. If it's just a barb warrior or two, or the badly wounded archer, let them move onto the chokepoint and take them out, preferably with the same axe each time to get 10XP. Worst comes to worst, you poprush the axe that's getting built. Meanwhile, the worker at ZLat-1W can finish that road so axes can get to the choke point in one turn.

I will have to alter this "zero Spearmen finesse," since an extra Spearman or two in place of an Axeman or two isn't really going to hurt when capturing a City but not having any could royally screw us if Hatty decides to attack us, say via a dogpile or via being bribed by Toku.
Spoiler :
Our Catapults are mostly in position in the east, although I'm thinking that we might want more of them before I even declare war... I would rather have overkill than come up short and be forced to attack with 3 or 4 Axemen at, say, 43% odds of winning and then end up not taking Toku's capital.
Spoiler :
No finesse intended. I wanted a few axes in GEL for safety and in case we decided to quickly attack OSaka. Dhoom, note that GEL has a spear in the queue with 20/35h. I deliberately put the overflow into him instead of an axe because you now have the flexibility to pre-build an axe or a cat this turn, 2pop next turn, and the spear is completed on T83 either way. I agree with ZPV that we don't need more than 1 spear. It will have 3XP.

I agree with you about another cat, actually. I put axe in the GEL build, but cat is probably a better choice.




I am leaning heavily toward generating Great Scientist #2 in Delhi and #3 in NC (which should happen automatically if they tie for the time of being generated, since the order in which Cities were settled will be the tie-breaker).

If no one objects, I'm thinking of having the freedom to clear-cut any and all remaining Forests within our Cultural Borders and put them into Military Units.
I agree on the GS in Delhi and clearcutting. Please do NOT chop either deer forest, though.
 

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