The Spanish ought to destroy Palermo, not Naples, and to fulfil their treaty-bound duty to maintain the status quo in Italy rather than threatening to upset it. Any upturned monarchy or any ruined capital is a step closer to nationalist anarchy, and we ask the Spanish to remember that just as we earlier asked the Milanese to, regardless of how infuriatingly the monarchies in question may be acting.
Capto Iugulum
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
Milarqui
Deity
To: Franco-Burgundian Confederation
From: Empire of Spain
Naples has already upset the statu quo in Italy, by illegally helping a group of rebels and acting in our internal affairs. We would like to ask the Franco-Burgundian Confederation to see the truth instead of the lies spread out by Naples. If you do not want us to gain our compensation in blood, convince Naples to give us our compensation in money.
To Spain
From the Confederation
We know that what Naples is saying is but absurd and unprincipled lies, but that does not mean that it is a good idea to declare war on them. You should go and exact the money from the Sicilians instead, or, if you won't do that, do without. What is Naples's funding and middlemanship worth against the armies and fleets of Spain? They are not worth the trouble of attacking, and if you do attack them we'll probably end up with two crazy republics on our hands in the long run, and what will you get out of your war? You'll have made a point, but you won't gain anything. Also, if you can afford an attack on Naples, why not use the same resources to attack the real culprits in this case, the Sicilians?
From the Confederation
We know that what Naples is saying is but absurd and unprincipled lies, but that does not mean that it is a good idea to declare war on them. You should go and exact the money from the Sicilians instead, or, if you won't do that, do without. What is Naples's funding and middlemanship worth against the armies and fleets of Spain? They are not worth the trouble of attacking, and if you do attack them we'll probably end up with two crazy republics on our hands in the long run, and what will you get out of your war? You'll have made a point, but you won't gain anything. Also, if you can afford an attack on Naples, why not use the same resources to attack the real culprits in this case, the Sicilians?
Milarqui
Deity
To: France-Burgundy
From: Empire of Spain
Let us answer your question with a hypothetical scenario: Burgundy rebels, and you are forced to concede their independence. If you found out that Netherlands had funded the rebellion, who would you go for? Burgundy, or Netherlands?
Allowing Naples to go unpunished creates a very dangerous precedent, saying that it is perfectly alright to fund rebellions in other nations. It would mean Venezuela could fund a rebellion in Guyana, or Brazil a rebellion in Panamá, or Scandinavia a rebellion in Ireland, and that then they could just say "we thought it was the right thing" as the only excuse.
Naples has an easy way out of it: monetarily compensate Spain. We have accounted this compensation in [90 EP], which is the equivalent for money it cost to train the people and build the ships lost in our attempt to put down the Sicilian revolt, plus the money to compensate the deceased's families and the people who have been forced to leave Sicily. We do not care how they pay, if it is by selling themselves into slavery, giving up their entire navy or by taking loans from other nations. Naples can pay in money now, or pay in money after paying in blood.
Otherwise, they can compensate us by convincing the Sicilians to return to the folds of the Empire of Spain.
If I were in your position, as I have repeatedly said, I would attack Sicily properly and fulfil my duty according to the treaty. If I had unwisely conceded the issue already, then I would concede the issue fully, and not take any reprisals. And if I acknowledged Burgundian independence and, say, Brandenburg had supported the rebels, then I would not attack Brandenburg, no; if I had the resources to spare, I would attack Burgundy.
Milarqui
Deity
To: Future France
From: Empire of Spain
Once more, you fail to realise the incredibly dangerous precedent this situation is creating. However, we can see that you are as unable as Naples to see it, so we will just let the discussion with you drop.
To: Naples
From: Empire of Spain
To show you we are perfectly willing to allow you to pay for your crimes against the Empire without too much problem, we are giving you two years to pay [90 EP] as compensation for your meddling in the Empire's internal affairs. Failure to pay will result in negative consequences for Naples.
To: Spain
From: Naples
Your threats wont get you any closer to seeing any compensation then when this whole event started out. The rebellion sought it's own government and freedom, we saw those rebels as friends and fellow Italians who were allies. How is that any different then what is going on in Turkey? The Sicilian rebels wanted their own government, we aided them and they got it, the Turkish rebels wanted their own government and Spain is aiding them.
We will not compensate Spain for helping our friends and allies achieve their own goals. If you had an ally that was in a war would you not aid them as well? Then after the war and your ally was successful would you feel the need for paying the nation that didn't get the favorable outcome? No, so Naples does not feel the need for us to pay Spain. We are already paying back our debt to three different nations and do not have to money to spare, nor the willingness, for Spain.
From: Naples
Your threats wont get you any closer to seeing any compensation then when this whole event started out. The rebellion sought it's own government and freedom, we saw those rebels as friends and fellow Italians who were allies. How is that any different then what is going on in Turkey? The Sicilian rebels wanted their own government, we aided them and they got it, the Turkish rebels wanted their own government and Spain is aiding them.
We will not compensate Spain for helping our friends and allies achieve their own goals. If you had an ally that was in a war would you not aid them as well? Then after the war and your ally was successful would you feel the need for paying the nation that didn't get the favorable outcome? No, so Naples does not feel the need for us to pay Spain. We are already paying back our debt to three different nations and do not have to money to spare, nor the willingness, for Spain.
Milarqui
Deity
To: Naples
From: Empire of Spain
It is sad that not only you are saying all of this, but that you actually believe it is the truth. Whether the Sicilian people were fellow Italians or not, what they were is rebels against the government of the Empire of Spain, and as such anything you did in regards to them was meddling in Spanish internal affairs. The Turkish people got rid of their Sultan and it was not until they had their government that they asked for Spanish help.
Perhaps, Naples should have thought things better before rashly acting without thinking of the consequences. As we say around here, you have made your bed, and now you will have to sleep on it.
To Spain
From the Franco-Burgundian Confederation
We understand the precedent. But the following is much more important than the precedent, which admittedly would be unfortunate: it is not in your interests or in the interests of Italian stability to attack Naples or even to destabilise the Neapolitan regime by getting them to pay reparations, so we advise you not to do it. Furthermore, it is not in our interests either, and so, if the wishes of the Confederation matter to you at all, we urgently and emphatically request you not to go to war over this.
From the Franco-Burgundian Confederation
We understand the precedent. But the following is much more important than the precedent, which admittedly would be unfortunate: it is not in your interests or in the interests of Italian stability to attack Naples or even to destabilise the Neapolitan regime by getting them to pay reparations, so we advise you not to do it. Furthermore, it is not in our interests either, and so, if the wishes of the Confederation matter to you at all, we urgently and emphatically request you not to go to war over this.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
Hungary thanks Scandinavia for it's peaceful response to the situation, and will attend.
erez87
Lord of Random
GENOA
to Frank Burgundian Confederation and Austria:
Italy is fragile, and even more than that. A war or demands put on Italy will most likely cause nothing but an explosion of the people, it will support the nationalists as proof for their misguided ideals.
Yet Spain wishes to bring the peninsula to war. I request from you to stand behind the Italian kings to maintain stability and push away Spanish threats.
to Naples:
We might have been or not have been friends before, I do not know, but my interest in a peaceful Italy, where the growing nationalist unrest is checked, brings me to offer you our hand. We will aid you in war and in reparations if it comes to that.
to Spain:
We may be small, weak and unimportant, but we have a voice as well. We say NO. No to war in Italy. No to the surrender to greater empires who only wish to expand their influence and power. Remove your threats from Naples, they serve no one but the Italian nationalists that will use it as proof for the weakness of the Italian kings.
to Frank Burgundian Confederation and Austria:
Italy is fragile, and even more than that. A war or demands put on Italy will most likely cause nothing but an explosion of the people, it will support the nationalists as proof for their misguided ideals.
Yet Spain wishes to bring the peninsula to war. I request from you to stand behind the Italian kings to maintain stability and push away Spanish threats.
to Naples:
We might have been or not have been friends before, I do not know, but my interest in a peaceful Italy, where the growing nationalist unrest is checked, brings me to offer you our hand. We will aid you in war and in reparations if it comes to that.
to Spain:
We may be small, weak and unimportant, but we have a voice as well. We say NO. No to war in Italy. No to the surrender to greater empires who only wish to expand their influence and power. Remove your threats from Naples, they serve no one but the Italian nationalists that will use it as proof for the weakness of the Italian kings.
Milarqui
Deity
To: Franco-Burgundian Confederation
From: Empire of Spain
The bad thing with your most recent argument is that you are demonstrating that not only are you unable to understand the precedent, but also that you are unable to see the true consequences of Naples getting away unpunished. You just think on the Italian sphere, and think that Naples paying for its crimes will end with Italy falling in chaos. We think on a world level, and see that Naples not getting punished will clearly lead to other nations imitating them, which will cause more destabilization than what may or may not happen in Italy if Naples does not pay.
Considering what Naples has done, which is meddling in the internal affairs of our nation, we can consider this to be their declaration of war against the Empire of Spain, which we will respond in kind, unless our reasonable demands are met.
We wish you to consider this: are your true interests in preventing war, or in preventing criminals from being punished? Because you cannot have both in this case: the only way for war to be prevented is if Naples accepts its guilt and punishment.
Of course, that does not mean we are inmutable in the way of punishment. They can pay us in money or in some other way. What can France-Burgundy do? You can choose either of the following options:
To: Genoa
From: Empire of Spain
Spain does not want war, but will be forced to act if Naples does not pay for its actions, which could be considered acts of war on the Empire of Spain by Naples. We were perfectly willing to let them go their way, but the moment they started to meddle where they were not wanted, that willingness disappeared. It says a lot about your nation's judicial system that you support letting criminals leave unpunished.
From: Empire of Spain
The bad thing with your most recent argument is that you are demonstrating that not only are you unable to understand the precedent, but also that you are unable to see the true consequences of Naples getting away unpunished. You just think on the Italian sphere, and think that Naples paying for its crimes will end with Italy falling in chaos. We think on a world level, and see that Naples not getting punished will clearly lead to other nations imitating them, which will cause more destabilization than what may or may not happen in Italy if Naples does not pay.
Considering what Naples has done, which is meddling in the internal affairs of our nation, we can consider this to be their declaration of war against the Empire of Spain, which we will respond in kind, unless our reasonable demands are met.
We wish you to consider this: are your true interests in preventing war, or in preventing criminals from being punished? Because you cannot have both in this case: the only way for war to be prevented is if Naples accepts its guilt and punishment.
Of course, that does not mean we are inmutable in the way of punishment. They can pay us in money or in some other way. What can France-Burgundy do? You can choose either of the following options:
- Leave Naples to its own devices. This will probably lead to war.
- Have Naples pay us the [90 EP] compensation. If the payments arrive, there will be no war. If they don't, there will be war.
- You pay the compensation and then you make a deal with Naples over how will they pay you back. This will definitely mean no war will happen.
- You can convince Sicily to accept being part of the Empire of Spain.
- You can invade Sicily and have them accept being part of the Empire of Spain.
- You can have Naples invade Sicily and have them accept being part of the Empire of Spain.
To: Genoa
From: Empire of Spain
Spain does not want war, but will be forced to act if Naples does not pay for its actions, which could be considered acts of war on the Empire of Spain by Naples. We were perfectly willing to let them go their way, but the moment they started to meddle where they were not wanted, that willingness disappeared. It says a lot about your nation's judicial system that you support letting criminals leave unpunished.
erez87
Lord of Random
GENOA
to Spain:
How Naples can be considered criminals? It was the Sicilians who have rebelled against you, and it was YOU who allowed the rebellion be received as a country in the world. Thereby making the rebelling Sicilians not criminals either, for their attempt at freedom was seen by yourself as good enough to allow.
How is Naples criminal? Because they don't want to pay Spain for the Spanish freeing Sicily?
The only outcome of your demand will be a resurgent of Italian nationalism and will serve as nothing more than a tool for them to topple down the government in Naples.
to Spain:
How Naples can be considered criminals? It was the Sicilians who have rebelled against you, and it was YOU who allowed the rebellion be received as a country in the world. Thereby making the rebelling Sicilians not criminals either, for their attempt at freedom was seen by yourself as good enough to allow.
How is Naples criminal? Because they don't want to pay Spain for the Spanish freeing Sicily?
The only outcome of your demand will be a resurgent of Italian nationalism and will serve as nothing more than a tool for them to topple down the government in Naples.
Milarqui
Deity
To: Genoa
From: Empire of Spain
They are criminals because they clearly meddled in affairs that did not concern them. They acted against a foreign nation's government through motions that could be considered an act of war against said foreign nation. The only way Naples has to avoid receiving Spain's answer for their act of war is to accept their guilt and pay for their crimes.
The fact that you support nations' meddling in other nations' internal affairs means that we could just fund a rebellion in Genoa so that a new government more akin to our desires could take power, and then we would not have to pay anything because "Hey, we thought it was the right thing to do". Are we correct? You cannot say we aren't and then hypocritically support Naples for doing exactly the same thing.
Haseri
Emperor
As with Hungary, we will be attending, unless Georgia, the country in question, would prefer a more neutral country.
To: Pope Leo XIV
From: Poland
Glory to the Lord above. Saint Leo's Cathedral will be regarded as one of the wonders of the 20th Century.
To Spain
From the Franco-Burgundian Confederation
We strongly disapprove of your excessively bellicose, needlessly avaricious, and hypocritically legalistic behaviour.
Moreover, we deplore your etiquette. It is frankly somewhat insulting that you deemed it appropriate to judge that, just because you disagree with us, we don't understand your argument, which is plainly untrue; equally it is rather demeaning of our present stature - as something greater than a solely French nation - that you saw fit to refer to us as "Future France" in the header of one of your communiqués.
From the Franco-Burgundian Confederation
We strongly disapprove of your excessively bellicose, needlessly avaricious, and hypocritically legalistic behaviour.
Moreover, we deplore your etiquette. It is frankly somewhat insulting that you deemed it appropriate to judge that, just because you disagree with us, we don't understand your argument, which is plainly untrue; equally it is rather demeaning of our present stature - as something greater than a solely French nation - that you saw fit to refer to us as "Future France" in the header of one of your communiqués.
Milarqui
Deity
To: Franco-Burgundian Confederation
From: Empire of Spain
We strongly disapprove of your apparent support of Naples' acts of war against Spain, as well as your insults towards us.
We do not judge you based on the fact that you disagree with us: we judge you on the fact that you do not see that allowing Naples to get scot free without punisment means giving carte blanche to all nations to act exactly like Naples and fund rebellions in other nations.
The reasons behind the "Future France" comment are that, since you support other nations' funding of rebellions, when someone funds a rebellion of the Burgundian people, you will be unable to demand the guilty party to pay for what they did.
Don't support the "maybe"s, support the "will"s.
We do not remotely approve of Naples's behaviour and we have said as much.
We understand that you think not reacting would give carte blanche to all nations that feel like acting how Naples has, but, while understanding your argument fully, we completely disagree. Nations have been funding revolts since time immemorial and they have repeatedly got away with it completely scot-free, and this crisis is going to be neither here nor there in determining whether they do it in future. What this incident is going to have severe, dangerous, and direct impacts on, is not the world as a whole, but specifically Italy.
In other words, a gratuitous insult to our own ability to govern or suppress our own citizens properly.
Milarqui
Deity
Considering the previous semi-amicable relations between the Empire of Spain and France-Burgundy, we kindly ask that you do either of the following: suggest a deal that satisfies both Spain and Naples, or stop interfering in an affair that you do not have anything to do with. Anything that does not refer to either your suggestion or your agreement of non-interference, please keep in your inkwell.
We are, as cosignatories of the Treaty of Milan, entitled, or indeed obliged, to speak to help you to ensure the peace and sound establishment of Italy. We have tried, and it is now our opinion that you are acting to undermine it. I hope we are wrong and you are right, but rather doubt it, and with that we conclude, as you wish, this present correspondence.
Similar threads
