SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

My initial reaction to our situation is similar to kcd's: I not sure what would be best to do here, but if all things are equal, domination/conquest might be the way to go. This game seems designed to make all things equally hard.

I'm also not sure that a culture victory will be possibly in the current situation. It will at least be very hard. In culture games, the research slider usually goes to 0% after you tech to Liberalism or Nationalism so you can run the culture slider at 100%. I don't think that will be possible, given the diplomatic constraints imposed by this game, to allow ourselves to fall way behind in tech. I have little experience with AP victories, so I can't comment on their feasibility in our game.

Another thought: We have Toku on the ropes. I think we should finish him off. I would leave Kagoshima and take out the eastern cities. We could then extort whatever techs we could from him, tech steal what he won't give us and then finish him off. He's almost useless to tech for us in his current state, and we can't make him a vassal. The forces we currently have available, along with a couple more cats, should be more than sufficient.

Xcalibrator said:

Some random comments: Shaka has been infected with Hinduism. 1 down, 9 to go. I know some builds and tile assignments are preliminary but there's a lot to change. A couple that caught my eye were Vijay could build a settler or worker to stop growth (or we should run specs under Caste) and Bombay could work a mine to finish the granary faster and start storing up food. The FWs should move farther west to build a cottage for Delhi.

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Yeah, I had to change tile assignments in almost every city for the last few turns, including working unimproved tiles. I was trying to squeeze out enough commerce to finish off Meditation so we could bulb CS and finish it off about the same time we conquered Kyoto. I think that worked well, but I now need to switch things back. I don't know if building a colosseum in Bollywood was a good move. I was debating between that and a monastery. I probably should have picked the latter, but thought we could use the . Again, it was just to stop making units (and paying their maintenance cost) for a few turns. Your suggestion to build a worker or settler to stop growth was something I should have considered. And sorry, I know my worker micro isn't so hot.

We really need to decide what VC we are going to pursue before I continue (so can think about another PPP), but we also need to decide what to do with Toku, where the settler in Delhi will go, etc.

1. Declare war on X
Prerequisite: One Full Member must be at war with X and at least one Non-Vassal Full Member must not be at war with X, and X must be a Non-Vassal Non-Member.
If passed, all Members are instantly at war with X.

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Nobody else is a full member, so we won't get this resolution possibility until we can convert someone to Hinduism. We might be able to do that with a spy, btw, but its a fairly costly mission, with low odds unless Hindu is widespread there.

The danger of creating a full member is that they become an opponent in AP elections. As long as we control most of the votes, it isn't a worry. But if the Tokus spread it among themselves, it could lead to religious defeat since they all love each other due to Bhudism. However, there should be enough time to get them unhappy with each other before that would be a problem since we have so many votes.

I think religious VC is still plausible, but without more map knowledge and contacts, its hard to know for sure. Note, if we can take all of Toku's Bhudist cities, he will switch to Christianity (or whatever he has in his last city). For this reason, its probably a good idea to leave him alive with no Bhudism.... make HIM the worst enemy of everyone, and use him as the whipping boy to improve our relations with the others.

So in the near term... leaving Kago alive is my preference. If we give up on religion vc we can just eliminate him completely. If a different Jap city lacks Bhudism and is strategically better to leave to him, then we can take Kago.

I think if we are serious about culture VC, we take the corporate approach Sushi/CreConstr. Hollywood, Broadway, Eiffel Tower, Rock and Roll, baby. Forget GA bombing... not necessary with this approach.

I think we write off Diplo VC... if that becomes possible then we could do religion VC faster.

I agree that other teams are ahead in a military vc approach. But if we beeline corps and get the right GP's, we can do a pretty fast culture vc that would beat space VC, at least. Depending on map it could prove the way to go. But we just don't know.

I know that other teams will do better at the military victory conditions. While I think we could win the game that way, I am entirely sure that we would lose the SGOTM competition. I'm not interested in aiming for a losing strategy.

I agree with kcd that corporations and modern wonders can get us a cultural victory. I have doubts that diplomatic and religious victories are even possible.

Every time we DoW Toku we get a diplo demerit with those who know him from "You declared war on our friend" so that's another (weak) argument for continuing the war. I don't think we have any WW yet and we should be able to keep our losses low.

Did you notice the English scout NE of Kyoto? There must be a land or galley connection to England. England must die. Maybe. Liz has a ton of wonders and is getting too far ahead in tech. Her wonders will be very useful no matter what VC we pursue, but culture especially, I think. Pyramids/Repre with lots of specs, HG for big cities, Notre Dame for big cities (if it's on the same continent), Parthenon for GPs, and shrines for income. Once we get Alpha, exploring England should be our highest priority, to see if we can successfully attack. I suspect that if it IS possible, then teams going for a military win will crush us because England is probably the toughest AI. If it's NOT possible/plausible for us then maybe it will really slow down the military teams and we'd have a shot at culture or religion. Best case for us, I guess, is that some of the wonders are in vulnerable cities while she has one Barad-dur like city that can't be taken by mortal men.

Trystero said:

Another thought: We have Toku on the ropes. I think we should finish him off. I would leave Kagoshima and take out the eastern cities. We could then extort whatever techs we could from him, tech steal what he won't give us and then finish him off. He's almost useless to tech for us in his current state, and we can't make him a vassal. The forces we currently have available, along with a couple more cats, should be more than sufficient.

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Regardless of what VC we choose, this is probably a good idea.

Yeah, I had to change tile assignments in almost every city for the last few turns, including working unimproved tiles. I was trying to squeeze out enough commerce to finish off Meditation so we could bulb CS and finish it off about the same time we conquered Kyoto.

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Ah, I should have known that. Good going.

We really need to decide what VC we are going to pursue before I continue (so can think about another PPP), but we also need to decide what to do with Toku, where the settler in Delhi will go, etc.

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All true. I still have no idea what big picture strategy to pursue. But since we know we probably have no chance at a medal with Dom/Conquest, and it's still too early to tell if it's possible to get a Religious win, I'm tempted to pretend we're going for Culture and also build more Hindu buildings since we went to the trouble of building the AP. We might think about gifting a tech or two to somebody to start building up buddy points, just for fun. Because of the no-tech-brokering, they won't be able to trade them to anybody else so there's much less cost to us. Then again, how sure are we that we're militarily behind all the other teams? Aw, who am I kidding?

All true. I still have no idea what big picture strategy to pursue. But since we know we probably have no chance at a medal with Dom/Conquest, and it's still too early to tell if it's possible to get a Religious win, I'm tempted to pretend we're going for Culture and also build more Hindu buildings since we went to the trouble of building the AP. We might think about gifting a tech or two to somebody to start building up buddy points, just for fun. Because of the no-tech-brokering, they won't be able to trade them to anybody else so there's much less cost to us. Then again, how sure are we that we're militarily behind all the other teams? Aw, who am I kidding?

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Our power curves are impacted negatively by not having iron-working. It seems that only a couple teams were involved in wars as early as we were, but I get the impression the others loaded themselves up before initiating a war. By using REX, our power was low compared to Toku, and our borders got closer, so we probably contributed to our own bad luck.

Anyhow, besides being behind the curves, a military vc would be very tedious at this point.

I think our best strategy from here will be to continue on a culture path. Start with hindu everywhere and as many hindu building we can get. Figure we'll need to get to corps and some late wonders. If we see a chance, make a stab at religious VC. However, there is no point making tech gifts now since the modifiers will be forgotten long before we need them. Unless there is a tech that we want to slow its spread.

Note, the No Tech Brokering means that Elizagawa who does not need any techs the others have will not be trading up the others.

Lets finish the war (saving Kago for now or else another appropriate non-bhudist city in the east). Steal, extrort, grow, get the tech rate up. Build a few spies for exploration. Get to Optics to assess the big picture. What do we want to do with Babylon? I think the Toku-treatment is probably called for.

I can't open the save so I have no advice on settling site.

So to answer Trys: continue as though we are going for culture with a deep run into the tech tree. We need to become tech leaders to accomplish this. We make a stab at another faster VC if opportunity presents itself.


With luck (or determination), we'll also get University of Sankore (available at Paper, sped up by stone) which will be a major tech booster. We might want to put a prio on that. +4 beakers in every city is pretty nice.

I'd be happy with any coherent plan at this point but I genuinely think kcd's is a good one.

Yeah - I like kcd's proposal as well. I will put a PPP together tonight. We could go strraight to paper after CS. Hammy still refuses to talk to us, so I imagine there is another stack coming eventually.

I will at least prioitize a Hindu monsatary in Bollywood so we can build some missionaries and spread Hindu around. We need a few more workers. And where do others what to put the next city? On the coast, or on that island (after Sailing)? (Edit: maybe we should wait and see if there is a good spot in Toku's territory.)

Sankore at this stage, as long as we prepare for it right with giving our blessed people many places to play and devote their lives to Shiva, is quite enough to make a mockery of the tech tree while putting money in our pockets for a veeerry long while.

As going to town on everyone isn't happening, I 100% agree that playing as if we're going cultural, and trying to pick up Spiral FAST as well btw, well be the best for us.

I agree with kcd's plan too. Prioritize Sankore.

Can someone post a screenshot of the land overview, so we can comment on settling locations?

vra379971 said:

Sankore at this stage, as long as we prepare for it right with giving our blessed people many places to play and devote their lives to Shiva, is quite enough to make a mockery of the tech tree while putting money in our pockets for a veeerry long while.

As going to town on everyone isn't happening, I 100% agree that playing as if we're going cultural, and trying to pick up Spiral FAST as well btw, well be the best for us.

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We'll have enough military action to satiate our bloodlust anyhow.

Spiral Min is also good, but I usually don't put much emphasis on it because I tend to obsolete it before I can get much profit from it. UoS obsoletes at Computers and SpM obsoletes at Corps, iirc. Could be wrong about that... can't access my reference chart just now.

The island is tempting as it would give +2 commerce trade routes. It might be harder to defend, though, once the AI get seaborne. It could also have the only iron. Do we need to decide where to settle before we are ready to extort IW or steal it? How long would we have to wait?

Spiral Minaret obsoletes with Computers, 550 hammers, stone bonus, 8 cpt, 2gpt from all Hindu bldgs. UoS also obsoletes with Computers, 550 hammers, stone bonus, 8 cpt, 2 bpt from all Hindu bldgs. Huh, never realized they were practically the same Wonder. SM requires Divine Right, UoS Paper. Divine Right requires Monarchy, which we don't have yet.

I'd like to grab that island while we can, but the hold up will be building a galley (after we get Sailing); build in Bombay or whip poor Delhi some more? If the wait is too long I'd go for that fish site in the south central coast. Vijay can pump out workers and settlers to stifle its growth while it recovers from whip unhappiness.

I've updated the Game Report post but can't find a recent screenie of city site options.

Xcalibrator said:

Spiral Minaret obsoletes with Computers, 550 hammers, stone bonus, 8 cpt, 2gpt from all Hindu bldgs. UoS also obsoletes with Computers, 550 hammers, stone bonus, 8 cpt, 2 bpt from all Hindu bldgs. Huh, never realized they were practically the same Wonder. SM requires Divine Right, UoS Paper. Divine Right requires Monarchy, which we don't have yet.

I'd like to grab that island while we can, but the hold up will be building a galley (after we get Sailing); build in Bombay or whip poor Delhi some more? If the wait is too long I'd go for that fish site in the south central coast. Vijay can pump out workers and settlers to stifle its growth while it recovers from whip unhappiness.

I've updated the Game Report post but can't find a recent screenie of city site options.

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The key to make proper use of the Sankore/Spiral combo is to make sure that while you beeline to Paper, you are building up the religious buildings. Then, perhaps bulb DR if you can spare the Prophet early, and build yourself the Minaret. After that, avoid Computers like the plague. Which, unless we're going for Space, should be not a problem here.

If you want to get that Island, I'm rarely in favor of hard building ships before the modern era. Whip a galley and get going I'd say.

I do not doubt we will get more GPro along the way. Another shrine is probably the next use, but then bulbing DR is a decent option as long as SpM is still available. We'd like to have the other Toku's found Islam and shoot themselves in the foot by adopting it... but more than likely the Bhudist founder gets there first and doesn't adopt it, so Islam will be a non-factor (though another religion never hurts).

I think denying the SpM to Elizagawa is also a good selling point.

I'm not clear on what the tech path is in the near term, though. Alpha for spies, IW for obvious reasons, sailing ->optics for explore, paper (UoS), music (cathedrals), DR (SpM), edu->lib for the usual reasons, Nat (Hermitage, free speech), Corps/Medicine, Elec,...

Those are the tech I see having most value to us, but I do not know what order we intend or what order is optimal. Its a lot of tech so whatever ups the techrate fastest might be the way to go, but we can pace the techs (interspersed with defense-oriented stuff?) so that there is time to build the buildings they allow before the next set of buildings is enabled.

What techs should we take for peace from Toku? Should we assume that all Toku's techs will be steal-able and tech only stuff that he doesn't yet have? Don't know if we want to wait on IW so long, though.

I am considering that if we manage the UoS/SpM combo, we can set the Esp slider to max, maybe make a GSpy or two, and get caught up to Elizagawa pretty quickly. This game seems made for an Esp Econ since we start far in the hole on tech. At least until we are set up for our big culture push.

Hmmm.... what are the great minds on our team thinking?

Here are screenshots of our lands:



PPP:

Heal the stack in Kyoto for a few turns and advance on Toku's remaining eastern cities. We will leave Kagoshima for now.

Bollywood: Switch build to Hindu monastery, then either finish colosseum or build units depending on the situation.

Vijay: build workers to stop growth, and ease unhappiness. It can grow 1 turn and 2 pop whip the Hindu temple when conditions dictate.

Bombay: Finish granary then build Hindu temple.

Delhi: finish settler, build library

Pata: finish granary and cat (so as not to lose hammers), then build Hindu temple.

Holy Cow: finish cat and then Christian temple or more units.

Drona: finish cat then start Hindu monastery (will need courthouse soon) or more units.

Osaka: switch between cat and granary.

Kyoto: Buddhist temple when it comes out of revolt?

Civics: Switch to Bureaucracy when CS done. Switch to Caste System or stay in Slavery? (I usually stay in Slavery at war, but I think it would safe to switch to Caste for 5 turns at the moment.) Do we stay in Theocracy since we are building units, or switch to OR to build Hindu missionaries and hope for more Buddhist and Christian spread?

Xcal's suggestion sounds good:

Xcalibrator said:

Maybe revolt to CS/Caste and run artists for border pops and then switch to Slavery when Kyoto comes out of revolt??

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Tech finish Civil Service then start Paper. Get Alphabet, IW, and whatever else from Toku soon. Self tech Sailing for a galley? We could also use Currency ASAP.

Pause conditions:
*Another DoW (i.e. the start of a Buddhist dogpile).
*Cats coming from Hammy in the north.
*Someone techs Feudalism.
*We are ready to extort peace from Toku

I will play my turnset until Toku is ready to yell "uncle!". Sound good?

kcd_swede said:

I do not doubt we will get more GPro along the way. Another shrine is probably the next use, but then bulbing DR is a decent option as long as SpM is still available. We'd like to have the other Toku's found Islam and shoot themselves in the foot by adopting it... but more than likely the Bhudist founder gets there first and doesn't adopt it, so Islam will be a non-factor (though another religion never hurts).

I think denying the SpM to Elizagawa is also a good selling point.

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Recall that Islam has already been founded by the "AI on an island" that started with Monarchy and Theology. Hopefully they lack the production to build the Spiral Minaret.

I am considering that if we manage the UoS/SpM combo, we can set the Esp slider to max, maybe make a GSpy or two, and get caught up to Elizagawa pretty quickly. This game seems made for an Esp Econ since we start far in the hole on tech. At least until we are set up for our big culture push.

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I like this idea. If we capture Babylon and the Great Wall, we can get some EP (and maybe a Scotland Yard) that way too.

Green. I like the proposed tech path.

I think we should settle the fish city, before Toku puts a settler somewhere dumb. We can get the island later.

ChrisShaffer said:

Green. I like the proposed tech path.

I think we should settle the fish city, before Toku puts a settler somewhere dumb. We can get the island later.

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We will settle the fish eventually anyhow, so it might as well be now. We should be able to build a settler quickly once we have a galley, and maybe IW. No point waiting if we have a settler ready right now.

Forgot about Islam. Hopefully there are more important builds for that civ. How is the spread of Islam so far? Still no spread(check religious adviser?)?

I think the PPP is fine. Conditional Green from me. It could use a maximum number of turns in case the war efforts get prolonged. Is 10 turns enough or do you think longer will be needed? I think longer will be needed, but we probably shouldn't go over 10 turns anyhow. Lots can change.

Put in pause for UoS BIFAL as well. We'd reconsider the tech path if that happens.

Sounds pretty solid. I assume the fish city site is 2N1W of the fish? As Trys(?) suggested, keep an eye out for a better location east of Kyoto but I'd be surprised if there's space. I'm commenting without opening the save so feel free to ignore but since we're mostly constructing buildings now I'd switch from Theoc to OrgRel. Run artists for a couple turns in Osaka and Pata to pop borders. Check citizen assignments everywhere with particular attention to leveraging Bureau in Bolly. Spread Hinduism to any city that has another religion (when we have time for missionaries), but leave religionless cities alone unless there's a good reason to spread Hinduism there. If we want to do some serious tech stealing we'll need lots of courthouses before long, for their intrinsic EPs and to open slots for spy specs.

Maybe set research to 0% for awhile since we're not sure what to do? On the other hand, if we could finish IW or Sailing ourselves before settling or throwing units into strike that might be worthwhile.

Yeah, I was going to ask about what we mean by "fish city". I presume it is the one marked "Southern F" in SH's dot map in this post.

I will need to set the research to 0% to save up some gold, but I thought the tech path we decided was to go straight to Paper after CS, unless circumstances change. I agree about the courthouses, but infrastructure building has to be balanced against was needs. Recall that we are still at war with Hammy. I will add his willingness to make peace as a pause condition.

Edit: I can stop after 10 turns to report progress if we don't reach a pause condition before then.