Wonder Elimination Thread

Alhambra 21
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 21
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 21
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 15
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 12
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 22
Kremlin 18
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 20
Oracle 22
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
Terracotta Army 10

How many of us wouldn't build the GL if the AI didn't beat us to it??

The broadcast towers are already built by the time the CN Tower comes along...
 
Can someone bump Alhambra +1 and -2 Great Firewall for me :)

On my cell and reposting is a pita.

Alhambra is amazing in any game where war is necessary. It's not just a free promotion, it's increased promotion versitility and that's even better.

Great Firewall - seriously why would you ever need this?
 
Massolom of Halicarnasus is missing (however you spell that)
 
op said no dlc wonders of the ancient world for some bonehead reason.

DLC wonders change the entire wonder-building early game. You don't just beeline to hanging gardens because there are more situational (maybe even better) wonders to get. MofH + Stone Circles = lots of faith and cash, maybe better than HG.
 
Can someone bump Alhambra +1 and -2 Great Firewall for me :)


Also corrected values from previous posts :

Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 21
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 21
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 13
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 12
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 22
Kremlin 18
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 20
Oracle 23
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
Terracotta Army 8

Alhambra is amazing in any game where war is necessary. It's not just a free promotion, it's increased promotion versitility and that's even better.

Great Firewall - seriously why would you ever need this?
 
DLC wonders change the entire wonder-building early game. You don't just beeline to hanging gardens because there are more situational (maybe even better) wonders to get. MofH + Stone Circles = lots of faith and cash, maybe better than HG.

exactly my point.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 21
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 13
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 12
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 22
Kremlin 18
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 20
Oracle 23
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
Terracotta Army 6

Terracotta Army is overnerfed Stonehenge. It might be useful for a cultural victory but it comes too late for 6 :c5culture: considering that the Oracle and great Wall both give 3 :c5culture: each and it is on a non-cultural research patch.
Chitchen Itza was already one of my favorite wonders in vanilla, and now that Golden Ages were buffed and Great Artists can start them without diminishing returns it's a must have in most games.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 22
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 13
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 12
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 22
Kremlin 18
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 20
Oracle 23
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
Terracotta Army 4

I end up happiness deprived most of the time so eiffel it is for me with notre dame kinda up there. Terracotta Army needs a buff!
 
You guys are not counting my vote! (newschanstein +1, don't recall if my Pentagon downgrade is being counted). I'm sure, though, the N. Castle is 22 right now
 
You guys are not counting my vote! (newschanstein +1, don't recall if my Pentagon downgrade is being counted). I'm sure, though, the N. Castle is 22 right now

Watch carefully. It went from 18(post #19) to 21(post #43). Nothing wrong here.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 22
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 13
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 12
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 22
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 23
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
Terracotta Army 4

Notre dame is one of the few wonders I will build every game. I like the additional faith it gained too.
Kremlin is just bad.
 
Odd that the Terracotta Army receives so much hate. Okay, it is not a great wonder and has a bad position inside the techtree, but if you beeline construction early on, it is quite a large bosst for a mediocre amoun of hammers. :)
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 22
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 13
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 22
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 23
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
Terracotta Army 2

Terracotta Army does not get built even if I go for a culture win. It really does need a buff.

Great Wall is maybe my favourite wonder in any peaceful game (so about half), and is useful offensively as well. What's not to like?
 
Odd that the Terracotta Army receives so much hate. Okay, it is not a great wonder and has a bad position inside the techtree, but if you beeline construction early on, it is quite a large bosst for a mediocre amoun of hammers. :)

We all remember the old SH, which was cheaper and quicker. The old SH was a solid wonder, but it wasn't game breaking. It seems odd to nerf it so badly, particularly with Oracle and the GW giving solid culture. I think Terracotta would be just fine if it gave +8 culture and maybe something colorful like -10% strength to enemy units within 3 tiles (they're afraid of the Terracotta army?).
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 23 (+1)
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 13
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 22
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 23
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
Terracotta Army 0 (-2)
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 20
Eiffeltower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 11 (-2)
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23 (+1)
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 23
Pentagon 14
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21

Hubble is just "must have" if you go for Science Victory
Great Firewall seems pretty pointless to me. Atleast in the games i played so far.
 
Here are the summaries why Angkor Wat and Terracotta Army are so bad:

Angkor Wat:
002 I think AW is way too late with Education, Theology as it was in vanilla is definitely better.
003
004 Not worth the hammers 95% of the time.
007 It isn't worth the hammer.
008
010 I never want the ability that this wonder provides.
012 I suppose that the bonus is "the least useful of the wonders. That's not to say it isn't useful and I wouldn't use it in certain situations (like when playing Washington for super cheap tiles!
014 Angkor Wat is stupid and comes to late. It should come as early as the Hanging Gardens (or switch the benefits of the Wat and the Hanging Gardens.
015 Just don't want spend hammers there...
016

My thoughts: Would it be better if it is back to "-75% culture requirements for border expansion" when the game just came out? Also, it is a Wat, maybe it should include the benefits a normal Wat have.

Terracotta Army:
017
018 Even in a culture VC game, this wonder is disposable. The AI hardly even touches it before the Industrial Age . Needs a buff, maybe + whenever one of your units is defeated?
021 Terracotta is just not useful for what it gives, and where it is on the tech tree.
041 Terracotta is too little too late.
048 It's useless. Relatively little culture for the cost.
058
068 Terracotta Army is overnerfed Stonehenge. It might be useful for a cultural victory but it comes too late for 6 culture points considering that the Oracle and great Wall both give 3 culture points each and it is on a non-cultural research patch.
069 Terracotta Army needs a buff!
074 Terracotta Army does not get built even if I go for a culture win. It really does need a buff.
076

My thoughts: +12 culture points may be better. +6 is indeed too few, since Amphitheaters are +3 already.
 
Here are my votes:

Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 21 (Useful to get more policies, although been nerfed so much.)
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 11
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 23
Pentagon 12 (Upgrade costs are nothing, comparing to the huge GPT in late game)
Petra 22
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 21 (Useful to get more policies, although been nerfed so much.)
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 9
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 23
Pentagon 12 (Upgrade costs are nothing, comparing to the huge GPT in late game)
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21

Petra: There are a lot of Wonders I'd like to give the +1 for gameplay reasons - including Hanging Gardens, Macchu Picchu and Mausoleum of Helicarnassus - however of those Petra has to be my number 1 for no other reason that I've visited (and loved) the site recently, and I was thrilled when (a) it was finally added to Civ for the first time, and (b) it proved to be an exceptionally good Wonder with an interesting suite of abilities. Coming with a free amphitheater is a particularly nice thematic nod to the historic site.

Terracotta Army: While I hate the fact that Cristo Redentor is considered a "World Wonder" with a passion, and the Great Firewall even moreso, it's hard to overlook the essential uselessness of the Terracotta Army as an attempt to replace Stonehenge for culture games. It provides less culture than vanilla Stonehenge, it becomes available at an oddly late point in the tech tree to warrant its effect, and even going for culture victory I'd question whether the Great Artist point is better than the very early accumulation of GE points from its predecessor. But above all that, it's just not remotely interesting as an effect - it's just a unique museum without specialist slots you can get two eras earlier. Sure, Angkor Wat is also rather useless, and the site is far too impressive to warrant such a useless effect (which I imagine is also true of the TA, which I've never visited), but I like the Angkor site too much to list that as my least favourite.

EDIT: Oops, seems I'm not following the rules, and Terracotta has already been eliminated anyway. Changed the above figures, also replaced my vote for Terracotta with Great Firewall, which combines being largely useless with being a really stupid idea for a Wonder. And yes, the AI built it in my last game, and no I didn't care in the slightest - as others have reported, by that time the game was won.

Great Library: Probably one of the best early game wonders aside from Petra (but this one will be hyped anyway ).

I like the GL mainly for nostalgia reasons (it's been my beeline Wonder since it was truly powerful in the first two Civ games), but I ran down the Ancient/Classical Wonder list a while back and concluded that, overall, the GL is one of the least useful even if you get it. You have to try for it so quickly that you get a fairly mediocre beaker boost, in effect; over the course of a game the beaker output of the population gain from Hanging Gardens will far exceed the value of the GL. The Library has its uses for very specific tech beelines, but even most of those aren't within a tech of Writing in the G&K tech tree as they were in vanilla. In answer to one question, if the GL wasn't beelined by the AI, I probably still wouldn't get it most of the time - the short-term tech boost you get has to be balanced against getting a library 10 turns or so later than you otherwise would, aside from other considerations.
 
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