Wonder Elimination Thread

Oops, I forgot it gives +1 culture as a wonder. I was thinking of just free amphitheater + artist slot. And of course the +6 later is just more icing on an already iced cake.

Also, doesn't it also increase the city tile as well provided it was a desert tile?

As CN Tower provides it's benefit in puppet cites too, I don't understand why it belongs in the "worst wonders" category.

hbar said:

CivFanatics 10 Least Favorite Wonders:

1. Angor Wat
2. Terracotta Army
3. Great Firewall
4. Pentagon
5. CN Tower
6. Kremlin
7. Great Wall
8. Colossus
9. Cristo Redentor
10. Forbidden Palace

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afedyuki said:

As CN Tower provides it's benefit in puppet cites too, I don't understand why it belongs in the "worst wonders" category.

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The discussion centred around the victory conditions you'll want it for, since by the time you get that far in the tech tree everything you build should revolve around getting victory. You no longer need policies for most victory types by that point in the game, so you don't need a particular culture boost, and if you're going for a culture victory why are you bothering to grab puppet cities anyway? I see little value in puppets at the best of times - they're just there to ride out the resistance period before being annexed.

This list is still missing the extra 3 wonders from the DLC.

As CN Tower provides it's benefit in puppet cites too, I don't understand why it belongs in the "worst wonders" category.

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As a wonder, the CN tower is great.

But it comes WAY to late - like all the stuff from Telecommunication. Or to be exact: Telecommunications is situated in a way to poor spot to make early research viable. Penicilin isn't actually a great tech (at least imho), and ecology is very situational (either no aluminium or many desert cities). Maybe you will push for Atomic theory tocheck if you have uranium, but usually Satellites will be the most relevant tech you want to grab.

As for the Telecommunication benefits:
Nuclear subs will rarely make a difference at that point of the tech tree. But hey, better than nothing (like the old ecology 90% of the time).

If there was any kind of war, nuclear action has already occured, so the bomb shelter could only help to salvage what is left. WAY to late, imho it should be moved to Nuclear Fission, and Telecommunications should get some sort of SDI-like national wonder. THAT would make the tech worthwhile.

The CN Tower pop point is neat, but happiness should not be an issue at that point, and the free broadcast towers come WAY to late. If you played for culture victory you should have hardbuild them instantly after you researched radio, if you play for anything else you don't need them anymore. If the Eiffel Tower (or a similiar wonder at that point) would give free broadcast towers (maybe to the 4 biggest cities only), that would be good. But the CN tower at this point of the game? Meh.
Personally I would change him like that:

CN Tower
+2 and in all cities, free broadcast tower in all cities, +10% , , from all broadcast towers.

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PhilBowles said:

The discussion centred around the victory conditions you'll want it for, since by the time you get that far in the tech tree everything you build should revolve around getting victory. You no longer need policies for most victory types by that point in the game, so you don't need a particular culture boost, and if you're going for a culture victory why are you bothering to grab puppet cities anyway? I see little value in puppets at the best of times - they're just there to ride out the resistance period before being annexed.

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Actually, puppets are the best way to get a culture victory. Each puppet is a city which produces some without increasing the cost of future policies. If you play two games for a culture victory, one as a turtle/peaceful game of building up 4 core cities and another exactly the same 4 core cities but as a war monger bent on setting up a massive puppet empire, the second strategy will achieve a culture victory much earlier (and before the CN Tower is available on lower difficulty levels BTW). It is also more fun IMHO...but to each their own.

GAGA Extrem said:

CN Tower
+2 and in all cities, free broadcast tower in all cities, +10% , , from all broadcast towers.

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This is wrong. The CN tower is only 1 population, 1 happiness and free broadcast tower in every city. Broadcast towers are only 3 culture and +33% culture in the city.

Come to think of it, I don't understand why Pentagon is considered to be one of the worst wonders. I find it well worth it's cost (and indispensable if I did not pick Honor) if I am doing a lot of warmongering during mid-game and end up with a large obsolete army that would, otherwise, cost a fortune to upgrade.

From purely economical perspective it makes sense to invest hammers into building it and then use the gold it saved you to buy some buildings (same as Big Ben).

Mesix said:

Actually, puppets are the best way to get a culture victory. Each puppet is a city which produces some without increasing the cost of future policies. If you play two games for a culture victory, one as a turtle/peaceful game of building up 4 core cities and another exactly the same 4 core cities but as a war monger bent on setting up a massive puppet empire, the second strategy will achieve a culture victory much earlier (and before the CN Tower is available on lower difficulty levels BTW). It is also more fun IMHO...but to each their own.

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That's true in theory, but I wonder if the math in G&K actually does make it worthwhile.

Puppets are a lot weaker in G&K since they get a 25% penalty for culture (and science and other things). In addition, I find that my puppeted cities rarely build cultural buildings in G&K.

The problem is that the puppeted cities *are* costing you culture, in terms of happiness which yields Golden Ages (for extra culture) and direct culture if you have the Mandate of Heaven SP. Plus, for the World Religion belief, it only works on cities that aren't your own so you might be better off not taking that city anyway.

AFAIK, you also can't buy religious buildings (Pagoda, Cathedral, Mosque, Monastery) in puppetted cities.

Monthar said:

This is wrong.

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I think you missed this little part :

GAGA Extrem said:

Personally I would change him like that:

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the oracle won its a great wonder, im surprised the great library did not make it I seem to see alot of people say they go for it in games.

cman2010 said:

the oracle won its a great wonder, im surprised the great library did not make it I seem to see alot of people say they go for it in games.

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The Great Library is impossible to build on higher diffuculty levels and saves "only" about 9 to 11 turns - in vanilla you could jump into renaissance via astronomy saving 21 turns!
The Great library is still a good wonder, but it is definitely not the best.

zyx said:

The Great Library is impossible to build on higher diffuculty levels and saves "only" about 9 to 11 turns - in vanilla you could jump into renaissance via astronomy saving 21 turns!
The Great library is still a good wonder, but it is definitely not the best.

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In vanilla you could start building the Great Library, research Iron Working, and slingshot Steel to have Longswords attacking AI Spearmen. It was good that the tech tree was revamped to prevent early abuse.

The Great Library is great (ha) but on Emperor+ the AI forces you to build it so early that you'll never get a worthwhile tech for it anyway. Even on King I've seen it go in the 30s. I suspect the AI prioritises Writing even more than it did before because of the Embassies.