[Speculation] Italian States/Papal States/Venice

I think a lot of people who see Italy as a continuation of ancient Rome are quite ignorant of history.

This was not only not the same political entity, but also one quite different ethnically and culturally - people of renaissance Italy were descendants of various "barbarian" tribes (Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Longobards etc.), bringing their own customs and interbreeding with the local Roman populace - so comparisons to Russia -> Soviet Union continuity are simply incorrect.

The best analogy I can think of is the Ottomans replacing the Byzantines (who in turn replaced Greeks) - and while Ottomans shared the same capital with the Byzantines and considered themselves inheritors of Byzantium, they were quite different civilization.

Aside: to extend your analogy ...who had replaced the Phoenecians who had supplanted the Hittites... ah, Anatolia...

On Topic:

Honestly, modern Italy has alot more in common with modern Germany since both were forged from smaller collectives of principalities (i.e., City States). That being said I think that any overarching Italy civ in CiV would probably need to focus on the history of Venice in order to make it distinct from Rome. This begs the question of why not just have a Venice civ.

IMO, like the German principalities that preceded the formation of Germany, pre-Italian principalities are all similar enough with regards to cultural traditions that an Italy civ should be able to encompass the culture and history of the Italian peninsula from the time period during which the Lombards overran it (i.e. post-Gothic Rome) onwards.
 
Exactly,
Roman Rome VS Italian Rome (my City :)) isn't the problem.

Italy isn't included in Roman Civilization...
Germans have Panzers, a reinassance unit and an anciet UA
Denmark have Viking berserkers and Mountain IXX century troops.
Romans have 2 roman units and a Roman UA!

Well,civ5 had given us both Sweden and Denmark,there are also possibilities to have Italy and Rome together.Though I still want less European civs,considering the new expansion‘s title,Italy are very suitable...

BTW, I am from China,my English maybe even worse...Just like you,hoping everybody can read me:lol:
 
Well,civ5 had given us both Sweden and Denmark,there are also possibilities to have Italy and Rome together.Though I still want less European civs,considering the new expansion‘s title,Italy are very suitable...

BTW, I am from China,my English maybe even worse...Just like you,hoping everybody can read me:lol:

Totally agree,
There's no place for Italy in a 18 Civs Game, but in a 43(?) civs game yes!
 
How's that different from having Athens and Sparta as cities of the "Greek" civilization?

I was talking about the Grand Duchy of Tuscany (i.e., Florence), which is closer to having Athens as the capital of a Delian League civilization and Sparta as the capital of Lacedaemon. I agree that having an Italian civilization would be like a Greek civilization were it not for the specter of Rome hanging over everything (isn't that always the case ;) ). I just think that, while Venice is a possibility, Florence as its own civilization is pushing it.
 
I was talking about the Grand Duchy of Tuscany (i.e., Florence), which is closer to having Athens as the capital of a Delian League civilization and Sparta as the capital of Lacedaemon. I agree that having an Italian civilization would be like a Greek civilization were it not for the specter of Rome hanging over everything (isn't that always the case ;) ). I just think that, while Venice is a possibility, Florence as its own civilization is pushing it.

If there were no Rome, there would never have been a question about Italy.
 
I'm very pleased to see this discussion taking place. I'd been an advocate of Italy as a civ in the past, here and on the less-trafficked official 2k forum. The reception was cool at best.

It's pretty easy to make a case for a wide civ that went on a successful campaign of conquest. The Zulu and Timurid empires were essentially defined by the life of one person, but you won't get much opposition all the same, because they were bad to the bone. With the small civ's, no matter how many accomplishments you cite, no matter how much they can contribute to the game, they can be deemed by many to be too insignificant to be more than a city-state (or even several city-states).

With BNW, we have a revised cultural victory. Great artists are subdivided into artists, musicians, and writers. They'll crank out great works. Culture buildings will have slots to place those works in, and they will in generate tourism, which becomes the tool for achieving cultural supremacy.

Bearing all of that in mind, Italy would seem to be a perfect fit for this. It's the birthplace of opera, and some of its greatest performers (I guess Pavaroti would count as a great musician). We'll be getting the Uffizi [sic] as a new wonder, and no doubt that'll be kind of a super-museum for slotting great works. That'll be a nice addition to the Leaning Tower and Sistine Chapel.

And as for suppliers of great works, we have Leonardo, Raphael, Michelangelo, and Splinter...err, I mean Donatello.
 
Here's a question that no one's though of: what would the symbol of an Italian Civ be? Venice and the Papal States are easy; the Lion of Saint Mark and Keys of Heaven respectively. But what about the united Italian civ?

A pizza? :p

Best I can think of, seriuosly though, is an olive branch or a bunch of olives, but that's sort of a generic symbol of the Mediterranean.
 
I like the pizza, but maybe something based on this?

Spoiler :


Here are some ideas I posted over in that thread that has way too few participants. It's less ideal now, and probably something oriented around great artists/writers/musicians and tourism specifically would be appropos for BNW. But maybe it'll stoke someone's imagination.

ITALY
Leader: Giuseppe Garibaldi or Victor Emmanuel II
Capital: Roma

Concept #1
UA: Vitruvian Spirit. +15% increase to :c5science: and :c5culture: during golden ages. Piety and Rationalism can be active simultaneously.
UB: Italian Opera House. Requires Acoustics, replaces opera house. Same cost and maintenance. +4 :c5culture: culture, +2 :c5happy: happiness. Two GA slots.
UU: Alpini. Requires Dynamite, replaces artillery. Same base traits as artillery. Also double movement when moving through hills while in friendly territory.

Concept #2
UA: Heart of the Renaissance. During the renaissance era, every city with a population of 6+ receives +25% :c5science: science and :c5culture: culture. Piety and Rationalism can be active simultaneously.
UB: Basilica. Requires Theology, replaces garden. Increased cost and maintenance: 150 :c5production:, 2 :c5gold:. Grants +25% generation of great people, but does not require city to be built on river. +2 :c5faith: faith, +2 :c5culture: culture.
UU: Bersaglieri. Requires Military Science, replaces cavalry. Same base traits as cavalry, but does not require horses. +1 visibility. Gains unique "sharpshooter" promotion, granting +25% :c5strength: combat strength when attacking an unwounded unit.

The UA tends to encourage a small/tall empire strategy. The uniques also encourage a focus on culture, happiness, and religion. That's all in sharp contrast to the design of the Roman civ's focus (ancient/classical, wide/short, early-rush domination), and demonstrates the marked difference between the two civilizations.

I also like the idea of a civ that aptly demonstrates how the qualities of piety and rationality can co-exist. ;)

Regarding the units, the alpini are Italy's special mountain-range corps, while the bersaglieri are the highly-mobile elite skirmish corps, notable for their marksmanship as well as their use of bicycles and, later, motorcycles instead of horses.
 
steveg700:
I like both Unique Abilities, maybe 'Heart of Renaissance' wins because it's gives Renaissance a big stake/gamble. I like the idea of getting both Piety and Rationalism, nice elegant UA.

For UB I'd like something to do with new BNW culture feature, like maybe 'Italian Opera House' could store an extra artifact / great work.

Bersaglieri would be in my opinion the easy choice for UU, they look very distinctive with their helmets, and go well with colonial Africa -scenario.

Oh, and colours for italy: Red and Green.

edit: Went to check out the painting of Vittorio Emmanuelle. Makes me feel sad that leaders and presidents look so bland on modern times, we need more walrus moustaches for gentlemen!

Spoiler :
 
Glad you liked it, Haig. I think you're right about the opera house, although we're lacking some details on the storage of great works and tourism.

Here's hoping there's more info coming in the 24-48 hours.
 
I don't think Piety and Rationalism will be mutually exclusive in BNW. As the other mutual exclusives will become ideologies, it would be a bit weird to have just one pair of mutual exclusives.
 
I was hoping it would tie in more with the new features in BNW.

The Emblem might be too reminiscent of Rome. Perhaps focus on the star of Italy, or steal one of the symbols from the other states (if Italy is in the game, Venice has no chance).

I'd also rather see a Renaissance Era leader.

I was thinking for the UA: Men of the Renaissance, all Great People can create Great Works. Great Artists, Writers and Musicians, produce extra culture when they produce Great Works.

UNW: Il Banco dei Medici, replaces the National Treasury, Each Great Work in this city provides +5% to yields from trade routes. Alternatively, I was thinking a completely unique mechanic where trade routes fill out a pool with points, which when filled, provides a free great work (to represent Medici patronage).

I like the Bersaglieri as a UU though.
 
The Florentine Lily or the Lion of St.Marc can work as the symbol of Italy. I like the Bersaglieri UU, although I think Italy might get a renaissance UU(Condottiere or Pavise Crossbow).
Having both Vittorio Emanuele III and Haile Selassie in Civ5 would be quite amusing, it would get a chuckle out of me each time Ethiopia and Italy meet.
Haile Selassie: Greetings, I am Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia and...
Vittorio Emanuele III: No you're not, I'm Emperor of Ethiopia! *Italy has denounced Ethiopia
Haile Selassie: I will tell the world of your crimes! *Ethiopia has denounced Italy
 
Cavour is also a possibile candidate for Leader.

Bersaglieri as Riflemen replacement with minutemen skills?
 
I was hoping it would tie in more with the new features in BNW.
Yeah, it's just reheated material I did a while back. Sorry, just don't know enough about the new features to presume yet. We're inferring a good deal. Maybe come Monday...

The Emblem might be too reminiscent of Rome. Perhaps focus on the star of Italy, or steal one of the symbols from the other states (if Italy is in the game, Venice has no chance).
Sure, given the tight space they could just drop the olive branch part and go with the star in the gear (or is that a cog)? Not sure it's that big a deal..as long as it's not purple, the battle's halfway won.

I'd also rather see a Renaissance Era leader.

I was thinking for the UA: Men of the Renaissance, all Great People can create Great Works. Great Artists, Writers and Musicians, produce extra culture when they produce Great Works.

UNW: Il Banco dei Medici, replaces the National Treasury, Each Great Work in this city provides +5% to yields from trade routes. Alternatively, I was thinking a completely unique mechanic where trade routes fill out a pool with points, which when filled, provides a free great work (to represent Medici patronage).

I like the Bersaglieri as a UU though.
Yeah, I thought about Giovanni de Medici, but I'd rather go with a unifying figure. It's not necessary that a person have an official title (hence, Garibaldi), but they ought to at least be recognized as a leader figure (like Ghandi).

The Bank of Medici is a very cool idea.
 
The Florentine Lily or the Lion of St.Marc can work as the symbol of Italy. I like the Bersaglieri UU, although I think Italy might get a renaissance UU(Condottiere or Pavise Crossbow).

Condottiere is my choice (not that I think Italy will be in the game, but still).
 
Top Bottom