The Terrible History Thread

So indeed. If you take the Union´s point of view, than the CSA would not have been not a state, but a rebellion. That´s basically the view that prevailed, but it by no means is the only view. That the CSA didn´t achieve full statehood is, however, a result of how the war progressed. Had it gone otherwise, the CSA would have been a state (failed or otherwise). An excellent example of alternative history - awful term, by the way.

The point, once again, is if you take sides - which I do not - you´ll never see the possible alternative, however remote in reality.
You're talking about something that nobody else in this thread is talking about. As usual.

As a meta-posting aside, I think it's hilarious that you're accusing the most prominent althistorical writer on CFC of being blind to "alternative [sic] history". Next you'll claim that Kraznaya doesn't know anything about basketball.

You're going on and on about the "fact" that if the Confederacy had somehow achieved military victory and gained independence, that the legal issues with secession would have been irrelevant. Viewed in a vacuum, this is correct. It is also meaningless, largely because modern traitors are very keen to claim that secession was a legal right and therefore - not that this automatically follows, but most traitors assume it does - that the federal government was clearly in the wrong in fighting the Civil War. It's the mythos of the "War of Northern Aggression", and it's done pretty much exclusively to try to redirect the argument away from the fact that this was a freaking slaveholding country that was founded more or less exclusively to protect the right of rich white men to hold black men in human bondage. It's like the converse of modern Bonapartists, or rather, members of the cult of Napoleon I and his genius, who assert that the destruction of Imperial France was down to the "jealous" "Old Regime" powers that launched a "reactionary crusade" against "enlightened" France - none of this being true, but the fact that Bonaparte himself was a tyrant who could not conceive of anything other than limitless war and expansion rather overrides any thing else in question.

So yeah, modern secessionists tend to ignore the "might makes right" argument because it makes it hard for them to justify their own treason and racism to themselves. But, theoretically, it's true that the South could've won the war. They did fight, after all. But realistically, the Confederacy had virtually no chance, and frankly it lasted about two years longer than it had any right to expect. Most people would locate the Confederate problem in their smaller manpower base and inferior industrial and naval power, and that's a pretty decent argument. But the Confederacy also had much deeper problems. For instance, nobody in the CSA could figure out a plan. Forget about a unified military/political plan for gaining independence, they didn't even have a military grand strategy. There was policy coordination, but the coordination had no real object other than "stop hemorrhaging territory", "keep our armies together", and "try to hit the Federals wherever and however we can". Insofar as anybody hoped for "victory", it was supposed to come from Anglo-French mediation (never all that likely to take place, and certainly unlikely to force the Federals to the table, even in the days immediately after Second Manassas; intervention was effectively out of the question) after the Confederacy had "proved" it could survive on its own - but it could not. This was no plan.

And then. Let's presume the Confederacy had some sort of plan and unified grand strategy instead of semi-randomly hitting at anything that was within reach. It would still need a more or less unbroken chain of great victories to actually bring such a plan off. The "what next?" factor. Beat the Federals in Kentucky? (Ha!) How do you get across the Ohio River? Beat them in northern Virginia? How do you crack the fortifications of Washington? How do you invade Maryland and Pennsylvania and even keep such an army supplied? And what happens if Confederate victories merely galvanize the Federal populace even more? None of these questions could be effectively answered.

A Confederate military victory and "legal" secession at gunpoint was therefore theoretically possible, but so unlikely that it beggars the imagination to come up with a halfway plausible scenario for it occurring. This has not stopped the legions of Internet traitors from writing manifold "South will rise again!" alternate timelines that range from merely implausible to freaking ludicrous. It is not "being blind to possibilities" to state that a Southern victory was so unlikely that it does not bear mentioning, and I rather resent the slander that it implies.
 
JEELEN said:
If you´re incapable of being objective, it´s obvious you won´t see a point.
You've offered something about 7 slave states fighting for the Union and how this proved that slavery wasn't the issue. A point which was patently false. So I see no reason to suppose that I am wrong.
 
Sure, and if you don't give the mugger your wallet, he's much more likely to stab you. That doesn't mean it's rightfully his wallet, or that he has any business demanding it. And in this case, the would-be mugger was facing down somebody who had his own knife.

Link to video.

Never realised it was an analogy for the Civil War. :hmm:
 
:lol:


Yes, I know.

You're talking about something that nobody else in this thread is talking about. As usual.

No, as usual you are evading my response by raising some unrelated point:

As a meta-posting aside, I think it's hilarious that you're accusing the most prominent althistorical writer on CFC of being blind to "alternative [sic] history". Next you'll claim that Kraznaya doesn't know anything about basketball.

... which doesn´t relate to anything I said. But let´s go on:

You're going on and on about the "fact" that if the Confederacy had somehow achieved military victory and gained independence, that the legal issues with secession would have been irrelevant. Viewed in a vacuum, this is correct. It is also meaningless, largely because modern traitors are very keen to claim that secession was a legal right and therefore - not that this automatically follows, but most traitors assume it does - that the federal government was clearly in the wrong in fighting the Civil War. It's the mythos of the "War of Northern Aggression", and it's done pretty much exclusively to try to redirect the argument away from the fact that this was a freaking slaveholding country that was founded more or less exclusively to protect the right of rich white men to hold black men in human bondage. It's like the converse of modern Bonapartists, or rather, members of the cult of Napoleon I and his genius, who assert that the destruction of Imperial France was down to the "jealous" "Old Regime" powers that launched a "reactionary crusade" against "enlightened" France - none of this being true, but the fact that Bonaparte himself was a tyrant who could not conceive of anything other than limitless war and expansion rather overrides any thing else in question.

... which, again, is irrelevant. I already mentioned that the fact of the CSA being a slaveholder entity should be irrelevant to the issue of statehood. Apparently you have a reading problem, which might be related to your persistent use of the word ´traitor´. But I pointed that out before too already, so...

More irrelevance:

So yeah, modern secessionists tend to ignore the "might makes right" argument because it makes it hard for them to justify their own treason and racism to themselves. But, theoretically, it's true that the South could've won the war. They did fight, after all. But realistically, the Confederacy had virtually no chance, and frankly it lasted about two years longer than it had any right to expect. Most people would locate the Confederate problem in their smaller manpower base and inferior industrial and naval power, and that's a pretty decent argument. But the Confederacy also had much deeper problems. For instance, nobody in the CSA could figure out a plan. Forget about a unified military/political plan for gaining independence, they didn't even have a military grand strategy. There was policy coordination, but the coordination had no real object other than "stop hemorrhaging territory", "keep our armies together", and "try to hit the Federals wherever and however we can". Insofar as anybody hoped for "victory", it was supposed to come from Anglo-French mediation (never all that likely to take place, and certainly unlikely to force the Federals to the table, even in the days immediately after Second Manassas; intervention was effectively out of the question) after the Confederacy had "proved" it could survive on its own - but it could not. This was no plan.

And then. Let's presume the Confederacy had some sort of plan and unified grand strategy instead of semi-randomly hitting at anything that was within reach. It would still need a more or less unbroken chain of great victories to actually bring such a plan off. The "what next?" factor. Beat the Federals in Kentucky? (Ha!) How do you get across the Ohio River? Beat them in northern Virginia? How do you crack the fortifications of Washington? How do you invade Maryland and Pennsylvania and even keep such an army supplied? And what happens if Confederate victories merely galvanize the Federal populace even more? None of these questions could be effectively answered.

If you´d actually read what I posted, you might have noticed that the early CSA miltary successes were mentioned in relation to a possible Anglo-French recognition.

A Confederate military victory and "legal" secession at gunpoint was therefore theoretically possible, but so unlikely that it beggars the imagination to come up with a halfway plausible scenario for it occurring. This has not stopped the legions of Internet traitors from writing manifold "South will rise again!" alternate timelines that range from merely implausible to freaking ludicrous. It is not "being blind to possibilities" to state that a Southern victory was so unlikely that it does not bear mentioning, and I rather resent the slander that it implies.

Whether it´s a plausible scenario or not is, again, irrelevant to the point of the CSA achieving statehood. Your whole argument revolves around how events actually turned out. The main reason the CSA never achieved full statehood is that they got crushed by the Union. So it got termed a rebellion, because the victor writes the history... as usual.

You've offered something about 7 slave states fighting for the Union and how this proved that slavery wasn't the issue. A point which was patently false. So I see no reason to suppose that I am wrong.

About what exactly? I didn´t offer ´something about 7 slave states fighting for the Union and how this proved that slavery wasn't the issue´. I suggest you try rereading that post.
 
JEELEN said:
About what exactly? I didn´t offer ´something about 7 slave states fighting for the Union and how this proved that slavery wasn't the issue´. I suggest you try rereading that post.

Cool, so you haven't offered anything?
 
You're talking about something that nobody else in this thread is talking about. As usual.

As a meta-posting aside, I think it's hilarious that you're accusing the most prominent althistorical writer on CFC of being blind to "alternative [sic] history". Next you'll claim that Kraznaya doesn't know anything about basketball.

You're going on and on about the "fact" that if the Confederacy had somehow achieved military victory and gained independence, that the legal issues with secession would have been irrelevant. Viewed in a vacuum, this is correct. It is also meaningless, largely because modern traitors are very keen to claim that secession was a legal right and therefore - not that this automatically follows, but most traitors assume it does - that the federal government was clearly in the wrong in fighting the Civil War. It's the mythos of the "War of Northern Aggression", and it's done pretty much exclusively to try to redirect the argument away from the fact that this was a freaking slaveholding country that was founded more or less exclusively to protect the right of rich white men to hold black men in human bondage. It's like the converse of modern Bonapartists, or rather, members of the cult of Napoleon I and his genius, who assert that the destruction of Imperial France was down to the "jealous" "Old Regime" powers that launched a "reactionary crusade" against "enlightened" France - none of this being true, but the fact that Bonaparte himself was a tyrant who could not conceive of anything other than limitless war and expansion rather overrides any thing else in question.

So yeah, modern secessionists tend to ignore the "might makes right" argument because it makes it hard for them to justify their own treason and racism to themselves. But, theoretically, it's true that the South could've won the war. They did fight, after all. But realistically, the Confederacy had virtually no chance, and frankly it lasted about two years longer than it had any right to expect. Most people would locate the Confederate problem in their smaller manpower base and inferior industrial and naval power, and that's a pretty decent argument. But the Confederacy also had much deeper problems. For instance, nobody in the CSA could figure out a plan. Forget about a unified military/political plan for gaining independence, they didn't even have a military grand strategy. There was policy coordination, but the coordination had no real object other than "stop hemorrhaging territory", "keep our armies together", and "try to hit the Federals wherever and however we can". Insofar as anybody hoped for "victory", it was supposed to come from Anglo-French mediation (never all that likely to take place, and certainly unlikely to force the Federals to the table, even in the days immediately after Second Manassas; intervention was effectively out of the question) after the Confederacy had "proved" it could survive on its own - but it could not. This was no plan.

And then. Let's presume the Confederacy had some sort of plan and unified grand strategy instead of semi-randomly hitting at anything that was within reach. It would still need a more or less unbroken chain of great victories to actually bring such a plan off. The "what next?" factor. Beat the Federals in Kentucky? (Ha!) How do you get across the Ohio River? Beat them in northern Virginia? How do you crack the fortifications of Washington? How do you invade Maryland and Pennsylvania and even keep such an army supplied? And what happens if Confederate victories merely galvanize the Federal populace even more? None of these questions could be effectively answered.

A Confederate military victory and "legal" secession at gunpoint was therefore theoretically possible, but so unlikely that it beggars the imagination to come up with a halfway plausible scenario for it occurring. This has not stopped the legions of Internet traitors from writing manifold "South will rise again!" alternate timelines that range from merely implausible to freaking ludicrous. It is not "being blind to possibilities" to state that a Southern victory was so unlikely that it does not bear mentioning, and I rather resent the slander that it implies.

This is my favorite post on these forums
 
If you actually wanted to talk about the legality of secession, the idea that the states entered the union as sovereigns is a myth. The states were bypassed with the Constitution, which was adopted specifically by the people in ratifying conventions, not the state legislature. Furthermore, other states were created out of Federal territory or territory ceded to the Federal government, which would mean they never existed as sovereign states and would certainly have no claim to secession. The Constitution never had a provision either way on secession, but the Articles of Confederation did say that the the union was perpetual, so, although the form could change, it does seem that the southern states gave up their right to secession in 1781.

If you want to talk about a theoretical right to revolution, I'll just say that prudence dictates that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes and that, certainly, preservation of slavery is not a cause justifying revolution (especially when the only thing that seemed to be challenged was the ability to have slavery outside of their allegedly sovereign borders).

I like using Fort Sumter as an example because it shows that, even if the South had the right to secede, they still attacked Federal property. It avoids this question. But the question is by no means in favor of the south.
 
If you want to talk about a theoretical right to revolution, I'll just say that prudence dictates that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes and that, certainly, preservation of slavery is not a cause justifying revolution (especially when the only thing that seemed to be challenged was the ability to have slavery outside of their allegedly sovereign borders).

I don't really judge the cause why a given people want to secede from another when it comes to determining their right to secede, honestly. I mean, lots of overally quite good nations had rather less than impressive reasons to secede, (United States of America: looking at you), which hasn't prevented them in the long run from turning into not so bad nations.

I just say that, morally speaking, if part of a nation want out, they should, all other things being equal, be allowed out. I think the whole "sanctity of border" argument, used internally, is all about states mattering more than their citizens, and, therefore, immoral. The same applies to any argument that "the constitution create an unalterable union" and "once you sign this you can't get out" and "our constitution says unalterable border" (Hi there France). They're so much bunk based on the idea that country > people. As mentioned, I find that idea despicable.

Granted, if I had to chose between supporting the confederate secession and any other secession movement...well, the Confederate are, if not at the absolute bottom, at best one or two steps removed from it. They certainly had some of the worst reasons to secede out there.
 
I don't really judge the cause why a given people want to secede from another when it comes to determining their right to secede, honestly. I mean, lots of overally quite good nations had rather less than impressive reasons to secede, (United States of America: looking at you), which hasn't prevented them in the long run from turning into not so bad nations.

Hey, I thought Jefferson made a pretty good list. :p

Inability to have a say in decisions affecting you is a pretty good reason, imo. Even if you don't always get want you want, being able to participate in the decision making process is essential for government to be legitimate. While I agree that some of the claims might not have been great, they're still better than preservation of slavery.

Also, even if you were to say that popular will determines whether or not to be part of a country, I'm not entirely sure the thousands of men, women, and children owned as property were fans of secession.
 
Under what theory did South Carolina hold title? Right of discovery, right by treaty, right of conquest, right of occupation? When you talk about competing titles, South Carolina lost its title when it voluntarily ceded the land to the Federal government in order to make the fort (and Article IV of the Constitution makes it clear that Federal property was owned by the United States, not the several states in their individual capacity). The only justification I can think of is right of conquest, but that implies the right of the party possessing the land to contest this and the party who attempts to seize something through conquest is generally considered the aggressor.

Sorry, but I feel I have to call your interpretation here. From the south's point of view it was part of the (after the secession) sovereign state of South Carolina, owned by a (then) foreign government. The federal government afaik did not held its land as a separate entity outside the states, only owned it within the states. As such it became a foreign military base on the soil of a (now) sovereign nation, because sovereignty over the land shifted with secession along state borders, regardless of who the owners were within each state. Attacking such foreign bases has certainly been taken as an excuse for starting a war, but I dare say that "international law" as it existed even then allowed a sovereign state to order the eviction of such a foreign base, in the absence of a treaty authorizing it. And that was the case after secession, has the North really committed to not oppose it militarily.
 
It's "property belonging to the United States" as described in Article IV of the Constitution. Complete control over this property was entrusted to Congress and the Federal government. That's fairly strong indication that South Carolina had no sovereign power over Fort Sumter. They didn't have the power to tax it, for example, and that's generally one of the more central components of sovereignty (along with jurisdiction of your laws, which I don't think it had either).
 
It's "property belonging to the United States" as described in Article IV of the Constitution. Complete control over this property was entrusted to Congress and the Federal government. That's fairly strong indication that South Carolina had no sovereign power over Fort Sumter. They didn't have the power to tax it, for example, and that's generally one of the more central components of sovereignty (along with jurisdiction of your laws, which I don't think it had either).

But that was a constitution South Carolina had repelled by seceding. From their point of view it was no longer valid, nor from the point of view of anyone who accepted the secession. And when demanding eviction they exercising their newly-reclaimed sovereignty well within the rights of any independent state. As they would if they started taxing it, or decided to do anything else whatsoever with it.

Thus the north's stance was that secession was never recognized and that they were willing to use military force to prevent it. Claiming that the south decided to start the war by shooting at the fort was hypocrisy. The decision to start it had two parts: the act of secession itself, and the refusal to accept it. That war followed from these conditions was inevitable if neither party backed out. Apportion blame as you will, but don't insist on the first shot being the cause of the war!
 
Hey, I thought Jefferson made a pretty good list. :p

Inability to have a say in decisions affecting you is a pretty good reason, imo. Even if you don't always get want you want, being able to participate in the decision making process is essential for government to be legitimate. While I agree that some of the claims might not have been great, they're still better than preservation of slavery.

Also, even if you were to say that popular will determines whether or not to be part of a country, I'm not entirely sure the thousands of men, women, and children owned as property were fans of secession.

The "no say in decisions" argument get progressively less imprecise when you realize it's really "We had no say in being told to pay some taxes, and we had no say in being told to stop taking natives lands, and we had no say in allowing catholic francophones up north to be part of their own local administration, which is totally a papist plot against us...". Enlightened and rights-defending, these complaints are not. Especially the one about the natives.

Not unlike how the whole "States right" argument get rapidly less impressive when you realize "States Right" really means "States Rights to be slaveholding state", and shortening it to "States right" is an attempt to obscure the "slaveholding" bit.

(In fairness, the USA list is markedly more impressive than the CSA ones. Just not particularly impressive in its own rights)

--------

I'll give you the slave vote angle. It is, indeed, the one problem here. Is it the democratic will of the people (either via them or via their representative?) if a large category of people don't get to vote? It's an iffy issue. After all, the slave not votign was considered a good enough democracy for the purpose of electing representative and the president of the USA (and indeed, in electing representatives to determine whether or not the south should join the United States).

It's murky.

(And of course, plenty of people did not vote/elect representatives on whether the USA should be a nation, including those same slaves. What would they have thought on the issue? Who knows by now)
 
But that was a constitution South Carolina had repelled by seceding. From their point of view it was no longer valid, nor from the point of view of anyone who accepted the secession.

The issue is what happened to the status of the property when it became in possession of the Federal government. What the document would happen shows you want happened. The issue isn't whether the Constitution is was binding on South Carolina at the time of secession, but whether it was binding when they ceded the property that became Fort Sumter.

This is all assuming they had a right to secede. I just like covering all bases.
 
I find the legality debate to be a red herring; good stuff can be illegal, and bad stuff can be legal.
That said, if secession itself is illegal, firing at the original government's property after it is also illegal.
 
Yeah, it's a mostly unimportant discussion, especially from a historical perspective. It might be useful to think about what people believed at the time, but it's certainly not really all that helpful in determined some kind of objective right or wrong. Certain events, like the Civil War, are still being fought in some people's minds, which is why these kind of discussions happen.

But yeah, it doesn't really matter. We can go back to discussing Polish cavalry charges instead :p
 
Or the senseless popular version of the Hundred Years War (in parts of the English speaking world, anyway), which run something like "We won all the battles that mattered and we would have ruled France forever then Joan of Arc burned at the stake and waved her hands and we were miracled out of France".

(Of course, Will Shakespeare didn't write any plays about Patay, Formigny and Castillon. Which goes to show, history isn't written by the historians or by the victors - history is written by the entertainers.)
 
To be honest, the moment they decided to identify the pro-Plantagenet bloc with "England", they'd already gone pretty firmly off the rails. Might as well have some fun while they're there.
 
That said, the southerners white people, at least taken as a group (there may or may not have been individuals who were not, it's beside the point) were racist.

Much better. To think that some, and not most, northerners, westerners or white people in general at the time were racist is silly. White people were racist against other white people. I'm not defending slavery, but I am defending that just about everyone was a dirty racist. Even today most white people freak out if their daughter or sister or mother hooks up with a black guy. All part of the system, mang, all part of the system. And let's not even mention the Native Americans or Chinese.
 
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