Civ 5/Steam:Offline Mode Question
- Thread starter atticus finch
- Start date
Hence my statement that it is literally true but not actually
The post I quoted was indeed about no connection and I only quoted it because it was from this thread here. Actually searching for it I find another post which is plain false and since I expect the devs to know the Steam client I'll have to be very charitable to assume an honest mistake:
My gripe here is that offline mode is being sold as a one time activation thing, which it simply is not. Advertising with misleading or in this case even plain false information is not going to further the company's standing. By the way the description of offline mode on the steam website just as misleading (though not literally false as the quote above), and only in the steam forums you can find someone mention that offline mode isn't actually preventing the client from attempting to contact the servers if it finds an active internet connection.
I am on the fence regarding this DRM scheme, but I do have a problem with company officials describing their DRM scheme in a misleading or even blatantly false manner.
azzaman333
meh
Well, I assume by "not communicate" they really mean will attempt to communicate but won't lock you out if it can't.
Although I believe there's another aspect wrong with Liz's post, in that steam does require an occasional log in for offline mode to continue to work/
Although I believe there's another aspect wrong with Liz's post, in that steam does require an occasional log in for offline mode to continue to work/
I find "steam client will start but not communicate with the servers" as a claim very hard to reconcile with the actual behavior, which is "steam client will start, check for an active internet connection, if it finds one it will try to communicate with the servers, if it is barred from doing so or finds no active connection, it won't communicate with servers but will allow you to play the game, but it will try to call home next time again".
azzaman333
meh
Akka
Moody old mage.
Because it's set in "offline mode", doh ?
Because the settings say its in offline mode. And the offline mode description by steam:
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555 said:
strongly implies that you don't connect to the Steam network when using offline mode. It doesn't work as advertised there, neither does it work as advertised by Take2. But on this site I am not going to complain about Steam misleading their customers, its the Take2 position I have a problem with here. When they sell it as a one time connection and claim that it will not communicate with the servers afterward I don't care about default behavior. Their pitch is that it won't connect while reality is that it will.
azzaman333
meh
Jesus, some people are really paranoid...
When you start Steam it will check for active internet connection (its default behavior and there is no reason why it shouldnt do it - it doesnt harm anything), after that:
- if its active and Steam is set for online mode it will connect to Steam servers
- if connection isnt active or if Steam is set for offline mode it wont connect to Steam servers
Its software and I am sure that its creators dont want to make its behavior any more complicated than is necessary to minimize likelyhood of bugs.
Btw.: I dont understand whining about Steam offline mode when you have internet available. I also dont see any reason to keep it in offline mode when you are connected to internet.
When you start Steam it will check for active internet connection (its default behavior and there is no reason why it shouldnt do it - it doesnt harm anything), after that:
- if its active and Steam is set for online mode it will connect to Steam servers
- if connection isnt active or if Steam is set for offline mode it wont connect to Steam servers
Its software and I am sure that its creators dont want to make its behavior any more complicated than is necessary to minimize likelyhood of bugs.
Btw.: I dont understand whining about Steam offline mode when you have internet available. I also dont see any reason to keep it in offline mode when you are connected to internet.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
Just as an information:
The German Steam-Wiki describes the procedure as follows (blue highlighting done by me):
So, following the German rules, if I want to play in offline mode, I am no longer allowed to be even technically connected to the internet. Well, that's great, isn't it?
The German Steam-Wiki describes the procedure as follows (blue highlighting done by me):
So, following the German rules, if I want to play in offline mode, I am no longer allowed to be even technically connected to the internet. Well, that's great, isn't it?
Just as an information:
The German Steam-Wiki describes the procedure as follows (blue highlighting done by me):
So, following the German rules, if I want to play in offline mode, I am no longer allowed to be even technically connected to the internet. Well, that's great, isn't it?
That article is years old...
Step 4 is not needed (it may be needed in some very rare cases).
There is nothing terribly paranoid about wanting to control what data a company collects about one's computer usage. If a company advertises this data collection one way and does another I am quite miffed. This doesn't mean I won't buy the game, since I personally accept that data collection, but I do expect companies to be upfront about this aspect of the contract I enter with them and it will weigh into my final decision about whether its worth buying the game.
Generally I do find false advertising of the data collection features troubling. There is no reason whatsoever for a software that is being advertised as a one time online activation to go call home every time it finds an internet connection. I simply expect the companies involved to actually be truthful about what they do: they collect a host of mostly anonymous information and they do transmit it to their servers if there is an active internet connection even if someone uses offline mode. Them not being upfront about this is not a good way to build trust with their customers. If they are not even truthful about when they transmit/collect the data how can one believe their statement about what data is collected? You don't need to be paranoid to expect a company to keep the claims it advertises with truthful.
Stating its the default behavior by the way doesn't make this less troublesome since I am not complaining about the default behavior but about what it does when you explicitly put it into "offline mode". This is a feature done to collect data and has nothing at all to do with keeping it bug free. That is not in itself a problem at all - I have a problem with them telling their customers one thing and doing another.
There are good reasons to run it in offline mode even with a potentially active internet connection:
1) control the flow of information for simple privacy reasons
2) control the number of programs having access to the internet for safety reasons - no program is perfectly safe and programs with lots of users are inherently more risky as they tend to become targets much faster
3) having unstable internet connection - pretty much default behavior when running on a laptop, since you might want to play while traveling and not have to remember to put it in offline mode just prior to starting your travels
4) having expensive internet connection
of the top of my head.
Bottom line though is: I noticed that the program acts in a way contrary to how it is advertised and I am not happy about it. Since there is an active discussion about this going on I am hoping that Take2 will clarify their advertisement of it. I do not have a problem with them stating how it actually works - if the game is worth it on its own merits I'll buy it. I already stated that I am using Steam to play Portal. So I already allow its data collection. I do have a problem with advertising features that turn out to work in a much different way than advertised.
Senethro
Overlord
Ori, what evidence do you have that sinister data collection is taking place? Or would your definition of undesirable data collection include the Steam client checking to see if a newer, updated, more secure, bugfixed version is available come under that?
Do you ever get tired of manually updating Windows, your browser, your anti-virus and all the rest?
Do you ever get tired of manually updating Windows, your browser, your anti-virus and all the rest?
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
Has it been just an accident that you do not pick up the fact that Steam does try to use connection when being in the so-called "offline-mode"?
The normal customer would assume that "offline-mode" just means that the program will stay offline. In other words, he will not assume that it is trying to make use of existing internet connections - for whatever reason.
This is a clear violation of one's right for privacy - no matter if and what kind of data are delivered through such an attempt.
Senethro
Overlord
Yes, checking for updates is a violation of rights.
Its not "calling home" its checking for connection to servers which are core part of that service. When you start it in offline mode it WONT connect to them even if you have active connection. It will just check if connection is available because it most likely was easier to program it this way when this program was created.
1. I am carefull about privacy, but I couldnt care less if some company see that I played game XY for X hours in last 14 days and what HW do I have in that PC (HW data are collected/sent only if you agree to it).
2. To be used for security breach attacker would need to take total control over Steams master servers which is about as likely as taking over control of Microsoft master activation server (and from my experience working in IT i know how well protected such servers are - without very very good knowlage of systems, databases, encryption etc. which those master servers use attacker would need some time to be in control of those servers to start such attack). This is not some server hosting high school email system with protection software bought for 20.
3. Unstable connection isnt problem in my experience. Sometimes when I use my notebook and I have wifi connection I start Steam in online mode, when I have to go I simply put NTB into hibernation and when I can use it again I resume from hibernation, start game and if that game was activated already and unless that game need internet connection to be played (for example DoD:S) that game will start.
4. Most people have either no data limits or at least reasonable limits (in my country all major providers canceled data limits years ago, with exception of mobile internet). And being online in itself dont consume much bandwith (unless you are installing some game from Steam servers or downloading updates).
Why dont you just read my comment from May 23, 2010 03:33 PM for explanation of what is Steam doing during start in offline mode?
The_Coyote
Emperor
@ Senethro
Where is your prove that it will only check for updates? Where is your prove that there is no "Hello Steam Server, here is user XXX, do you hear me" (And if the server pings bag, Steam asks the user if he want to go online again)? And where is your prove that nothing more is transmitted? Or did you only assume the "check for updates" thing?
We only know - following oris report - that it tried to connect to the internet even in offline mode. Summarizing, we have something run (in) offline (mode) which tries to go online if possible.
@ Rebel44
Why somebody (incl. me) shall think you posted the absolut truth and not only your own assumption about what steam does? There are alot assumption - from both sides -available - but for most questions real facts are still missing.
And you know, calling somebody "paranoid" can be seen as insulting formulation, do you?
Edit: Sorry if i sounded "rude" (i have the fear this post can be seen this way), wasn´t my intention.
Where is your prove that it will only check for updates? Where is your prove that there is no "Hello Steam Server, here is user XXX, do you hear me" (And if the server pings bag, Steam asks the user if he want to go online again)? And where is your prove that nothing more is transmitted? Or did you only assume the "check for updates" thing?
We only know - following oris report - that it tried to connect to the internet even in offline mode. Summarizing, we have something run (in) offline (mode) which tries to go online if possible.
@ Rebel44
Why somebody (incl. me) shall think you posted the absolut truth and not only your own assumption about what steam does? There are alot assumption - from both sides -available - but for most questions real facts are still missing.
And you know, calling somebody "paranoid" can be seen as insulting formulation, do you?
Edit: Sorry if i sounded "rude" (i have the fear this post can be seen this way), wasn´t my intention.
Same can be said about every piece of SW. Lack of proof that some1 is stealing in local supermarket doesnt mean that person should have to provide proof that he isnt stealing. For example: If MS wanted to spy on you (and almost everyone else with PC), they can and OS would also be able to avoid detection by any SW installed in that PC.... that doesnt mean that MS should make public every piece of data in their servers t show that they arent spying on every user of Windows OS
Its up to everyone to decide for himself what will he/she believe.
Edit: I work in IT for some time and despite what I know about posibilities of spying on othersI am not suspecting everyone from doing it, because most users dont have assets and knowledge needed and 99% of those people and organizations who can do it either dont want to risk punishement (management of random company XY dont want to end in prison for 20 years) or have something better to do (even NSA dont have enough people to analyze more than fraction of data they collect about people they are interested in - they are not going to waste resources to watch some1 just because he downloaded some movie from internet).
That last 1% will much more likely target easy targets (average computer users) from 2 reasons:
1. Less risk being caught and severely punished
2. its easier to infect 1 000 000 computers with malware and sell data from those PCs and access to them compared to gaining same ammount of money by breaking into computer systems of national bank or major corporation.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
The main point is that the user wants the client to stay offline.
Therefore, any attempt to "check for updates" is clearly a violation of what the user ordered the client to do.
And this is a violation of privacy.
To skip this mode of looking for internet connections when the allegedly activated "offline-mode" has been selected seems not to be rocket science.
If "offline mode"= true
then sleep
else proceed
(just in rough terms)
I think I already posted this, but I will gladly do it again (Steam's privacy policy):
Oh yes, there is, since the user explicitly told the program not to go online.
For the moment being, I am willing to put more trust into Ori's statement than into Rebel44's assumption that no connection will take place.
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