Trade Caravans and Freights

45°38'N-13°47'E;13138093 said:
My original idea was to make a separate "food caravan" unit because I don't know how AI handles caravans.
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I have a separate line of food caravans. The graphics are different also, if not good. I'll see if I have a compressed file of them. The techs would be different as they are set up for C2C.

edit turns out it was only the buttons which were different. here they are
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13139821 said:
It's possible I think but I'd prefer not to change game mechanics for the moment. We've spent months on solving bugs and crashes so I'm a bit uncomfortable in changing things that aren't causing troubles for now. But I'm considering your idea because I'd also prefer it that way.
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I'd really rather not have separate units. I think we should have just one kind of caravan unit and have it be built with food if that is such a game-breaker. I'm not so sure that it really is that significant.
 
I use them a lot when I'm out of stuff to build and am about to discover a tech that has a wonder (to rush the wonder when I get it).
 
As the AI seems to be unable to use Treasure, Trade Caravans and Freights I think some changes could be done to these.
How about adding a "negative maintanace" cost for them, so it is generating money for the AI, while the human players can still use "the more advanced" options of them.
I think something like this:
  • Caravan +2 :gold:/turn
  • Freight +5 :gold:/turn
  • Treasure +10 :gold:/turn (as you cannot build them the gold can be high)
 
Sogroon said:
As the AI seems to be unable to use Treasure, Trade Caravans and Freights I think some changes could be done to these.
How about adding a "negative maintanace" cost for them, so it is generating money for the AI, while the human players can still use "the more advanced" options of them.
I think something like this:
  • Caravan +2 :gold:/turn
  • Freight +5 :gold:/turn
  • Treasure +10 :gold:/turn (as you cannot build them the gold can be high)
Click to expand...

I've never seen an AI with a Caravan nor a Freight that they've made themselves. The Caravan they only get if they receive it as the free unit for being first to the Trade tech.

Treasures +10 gold? :crazyeye:



I don't know if it can be enabled for the AI but not the human though. If it were practical to right now I'd think the best option would be to have a snippet of code telling the AI to build a few Carvans/Freights once it starts on a Wonder, and if it has a Treasure to treat it like a Great Artist to boost a city's culture (I don't know if its Mini-Bomb can pull a city out of revolt like a GA can though)
 
I think the best cure here is to fix the AI. Maybe someone could outline all of the possible strategies for optimal usage of trade caravans. (Admittedly I tend not to use them either). I could look into implementing it.

Edit: I knew I wrote AI for trade caravans ages ago. I think I found a critical bug in the implementation that prevents it from ever working.
 
I only really use them for early wonders, or when am building a wonder in a production-average city that I don't want to lose. I'll have a few nearby cities on "Caravan Duty" until I'm finished with it or can buy the rest of it.

Often though, I just ignore them. The cash bonus is pitiful no matter how far you send them or how large the city is, and is almost never worth the production wasted on them. Freights are hardly any better.

I don't like the idea of them "rushing food" either even if it does make sense from a real life standpoint, so I never use that feature.
 
Afforess said:
I think the best cure here is to fix the AI. Maybe someone could outline all of the possible strategies for optimal usage of trade caravans. (Admittedly I tend not to use them either). I could look into implementing it.

Edit: I knew I wrote AI for trade caravans ages ago. I think I found a critical bug in the implementation that prevents it from ever working.
Click to expand...

Well, I use them early in the game if I have financial troubles to keep my economy afloat while I deal with it and to rush some wonders as Rezca described. Seldom I use them to hurry food for some cities I want to grow quickly or in the same way with hammers for some city which I need to develop quickly especially near border. I guess that's how AI should use them as well.
 
My favorite strategy is to have my more-developed cities churn out caravans to help new cities along. This is especially when I've run of out good buildings and don't want to build too many more military units.
 
I use Caravans quite extensively. I use them for starting cites mainly.

I will settle a new city, send in some caravans and rush the early important hammer buildings. It may be a monument for culture/happy, Carpenter for 10% hammers, or to rush through the slave market. (I use slavery quite extensively). The Treadmill crane for the 15% hammers bonus, Rushing through that Stone cutters hut.

Once they have the basics, I leave them to it, to GROW AND GROW AND GROW.

Rushing of wonders, not much at all, its worth 1 turn at best, Freight here more so.
 
IPEX-731BA5DD06 said:
I use Caravans quite extensively. I use them for starting cites mainly.

I will settle a new city, send in some caravans and rush the early important hammer buildings. It may be a monument for culture/happy, Carpenter for 10% hammers, or to rush through the slave market. (I use slavery quite extensively). The Treadmill crane for the 15% hammers bonus, Rushing through that Stone cutters hut.

Once they have the basics, I leave them to it, to GROW AND GROW AND GROW.

Rushing of wonders, not much at all, its worth 1 turn at best, Freight here more so.
Click to expand...

This is what I use them (freight) for also. I send a couple with the settler and build some :hammers: buildings with them to get them off to a good start. I have not started using the food caravans yet.

I agree that the AI does not seem to know what to do with treasures as I have captured a couple of them when I captured a city which suggests that the AI was just stockpiling them in that city.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
This is what I use them (freight) for also. I send a couple with the settler and build some :hammers: buildings with them to get them off to a good start. I have not started using the food caravans yet.

I agree that the AI does not seem to know what to do with treasures as I have captured a couple of them when I captured a city which suggests that the AI was just stockpiling them in that city.
Click to expand...

OH. Is the trouble with the treasure unit? They have the wrong unit ai for hurrying production. UNITAI_MERCHANT is what Trade Caravans have and where the custom hurry logic for them resides.

I rechecked the trade caravan code, and added some logging, but trade caravans units seem to work properly (AI hurries with them). The real problem seems to be that the AI will not build caravans on its own.
 
On the game I'm playing alone (my first AND game), Caravans are the only thing which keep me competitive. I have 32 cities in 1446AD, my strongest rival has 21 (but is a lot more advanced then anyone else) and my biggest rival has 36 (and is more or less as advanced as me).

Trade caravans on my empire have:
-Hurried some wonders (some which I got and some which I didn't);
-Helped new cities or satellites to my best cities make buildings;
-Saved coastal cities from starving because England (the most advanced player) arrived with 100+ Brigantines, Sloops, Fluyts, Cogs and Galleys removing my access to water tiles (and I had at best 10 Galleas and Caravels);
-Helped me grow when I had to be 80% tech rate (minimum not to get unhappy from monarchy) losing up to a hundred gold/turn. This is what let me have 32 cities at this point;

Rarely I'm not making Trade Caravans, I only stop when I need to make tons of troops to defend myself from my two war fronts.

And I agree that it's truly strange for a caravan made on a starving city with :hammers: may save that same city from starving giving :food:.
 
Sogroon said:
What do you think about adding a new unit to fill the gap between Caravan and Freight units? I think the gap between the ancient and industrial era is too big.
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If we can come up with either a clean name for the new unit or a clean rename of the current Caravan (and call the medieval one the Caravan), I'd be all for it. Artwork exists -- the Supply Train from the Charlemagne mod -- and that's usually the biggest hurdle with introducing a new unit. I definitely would not use the Supply Train name.
 
Vokarya said:
If we can come up with either a clean name for the new unit or a clean rename of the current Caravan (and call the medieval one the Caravan), I'd be all for it. Artwork exists -- the Supply Train from the Charlemagne mod -- and that's usually the biggest hurdle with introducing a new unit. I definitely would not use the Supply Train name.
Click to expand...

Wagon (whatever)?
 
What's wrong with 'Supply Train' as a mediaeval name for a caravan? To me, 'caravan' evokes Arabic traders during the Islamic Golden Age, whereas 'wagon' to me are things that start to appear in the Colonial Era.
 
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