SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element

First off, let's settle in the desert, if this is the mainstream

Culture without wonders... mmmh not sure on that.
Being Philo and with many wonders generating GA points this can be the wrong choice.

So i propose: First, let's verify if our teamed AI presumption is true.
Assuming it is, culture is the only way, provided we don't get smashed, so we MUST have a good military, just in case.
If we have enough land to expand to 9 cities we can avoid any expensive early war and be on the defensive but ready to counter attack.

Wonders i see useful:
Oracle (obvious)
Pyramids
HG
MoM, probably the most
Sistine and try to be first on music
Taj
less useful: my favourite GLib if not for some GS, good to speed up Lib, which we'll use for Nationalism (Taj, hermitage)
parthenon (not much for a philo leader, but good for GA points if we have marble)
colossus, for commerce

then we must use Caste, which i always prefere to slavery, being a disaster in whipping (my main weakness, i think) and set up a specialist economy, with cottages to grow fast only in the chosen legendary cities

monuments. i think that for the first time ever i'll build some. I doubt we can build SH if our assumption on the teamed AIs is correct. If the AIs feel to have enough land and power they start go wonder crazy if they are inclined to do so.

convert ASAP, choose OR since we need to build many structures. Pacifism is not so useful for us.

and many more. damn, i'm not strong in culture

Going for culture on emperor with an unknown map type is a bit of a risk imo. If we don't have enough land to expand into 9 cities we will be slow. Even if we have plenty of land I don't see us winning faster than 1400ad, and that's if the wizard is manageable at that point. I do think it will be faster than diplo though, given the random ai personalities.

Perhaps we should consider something a bit unconventional, say a knights/trebs war asap. Obviously taking two ai on at once means we'd have to have a pretty big military advantage and knights/trebs is probably the first chance we have at that. That, ofcourse, depends on their proximity. If we have a team nearby we could probably get away with an early axe rush.

I am better at culture than conquest/domination by far, but I am still not sure it would be faster.

If the consensus ends up being culture though I'd have to say settle 1W, worker/archer/archer/settler -> settle gp farm @ corn/crab/stone/oasis asap. Enough production to build a cathedral or two, enough forests to chop out the NE respectably quick, and enough farmable grassland. It will be by far our most important city. One early GS for academy in the capital, and then nonstop GAs in Caste.

As far as WW's for a culture vc personally I'd limit it to Oracle, Mids (a stretch), Sistine, Taj, Eiffel (if we get that far) and focus instead on cathedrals/NE/Hermitage.

[cross-posted with Meow]

A cultural victory doesn't require many wonders. It does require at least 3 religions, preferably early religions. Hammers are much better used on Temples/Cathedrals, NEpic, and Hermitage rather than on Wonders. Oracle and Sistine, perhaps Taj are all that's required for a fast cultural victory.

Two massive cottage cities (need 3 hills each) and a GP farm, and max out the culture slider. Other cities should be food or production heavy - cottages are irrelevant outside the main Legendary cities.

However, the problem with a cultural victory is that it doesn't work nicely with teching deeply through the tree, because that slider needs to point to culture, not science. Also, it is optimal to only get GArtists, so no tricky Scientist bulbings through physics. Building Oxford is a huge drain right at the point that Cathedrals are needed.

The fastest Cultural Victories (say, 1300ad) stop at Liberalism/Nationalism.

I worry what the end-game will look like if we pursue a cultural victory. Let's say we get to Liberalism at 500AD, take Nationalism, and only then tech Astro and find that we're facing massed tanks or something.

While I often play Cultural games myself, I'm unsure whether it's the right choice here.

I'm leaning towards Conquest, probably starting with Maces/Cats, but an Axe or Horse rush is also a possibility. I'm not too concerned about taking on 2 AIs at once, as long as we have a tech advantage.

Also, should we check that the turn 1 demographics line up with what we are assuming is happenning with the AI-teams?

I would point out that the team itself seems strongest in cultural. My main question would be on marble. If we take a wonder route to a cultural victory marble will be key. Science and culture can coexist, but we'd really need marble to make it happen. MoM and the Taj would be essential. Religion's how we make anything like that work. We're all quite capable players. How many times does someone on this team end up #1 on the HOF board? Twenty? more? How many of those are for cultural? The simplest way of playing Civ is playing to your strengths as a civ. Let's apply the same to ourselves. If we're good, very good cultural players, perhaps we should play to our own strengths. Ready stone makes Judaism/Christianity appealing especially with the Oracle.
That being said, culture via wonder requires marble. If we can't find a ready source for not just wonders, but cathedrals, it becomes moot.

Also am I right that we're in agreement on 1W for settling?

Also am I right that we're in agreement on 1W for settling?

Click to expand...

I'm keen to run a test or two to compare 1W with a more food-rich site (probably 1SE) to see whether we can whip out a very early settler to claim the GL gems with a second city. This will depend greatly on how the micro slots together. For example it will take some time to move workers around to improve all the food if we settle 1SE, and this will delay growth. I think I'll try to chop out a second worker quickly.

This will mean editing the test save, which anyway needs doing at some stage.

Don't let my testing delay us though if everyone else agrees to 1W.

I'm up for 1W. Can we get a screenshot of the Turn 1 demographics screen first?

I'm very wary of going for culture before we know what the wizard is. pnp_dredd makes a good point, the Wizard could be a modern armor ... or a Missile Cruiser ...

Forget the whip for a long while if we want a chance to the CS sling. We must carefully avoid any non strictly related tech aside mining and the wheel. Not even sure we can insert the wheel.

Also, one thing is working those gems right after the worker/mine are ready, another is to work them with a second city. If we don't want try the CS sling this can be the way to go.

I already said i'm not strong in culture. At least not as i am in Space.

One thing i can affirm is that if we build the pyramids we can run artists, but any artist will give us 4 beakers, not bad for research.

Better forget my HoF achievements in culture. Just a couple of 3rd place and max on Monarch

BLubmuz said:

Forget the whip for a long while if we want a chance to the CS sling. We must carefully avoid any non strictly related tech aside mining and the wheel. Not even sure we can insert the wheel.

Also, one thing is working those gems right after the worker/mine are ready, another is to work them with a second city. If we don't want try the CS sling this can be the way to go.

I already said i'm not strong in culture. At least not as i am in Space.

One thing i can affirm is that if we build the pyramids we can run artists, but any artist will give us 4 beakers, not bad for research.

Better forget my HoF achievements in culture. Just a couple of 3rd place and max on Monarch

Click to expand...

This is only Emperor, the AI isn't going to build the Oracle in 3000bc. Especially with gems in the BFC we can surely afford BW for chopping/whipping. With an early Academy and gems we'll have a capital that's pumping out many, many beakers.

I'm very wary of going for culture before we know what the wizard is.... the Wizard could be a modern armor ... or a Missile Cruiser ...

Click to expand...

The uncertainty with Culture is huge. If this game is hard, and the winning date is around 1600ad or later, then Culture is a real option. But if it's like the last game and early conquesting is possible then Culture just won't be competitive.

But there are uncertainties with everything else too. Diplo is muddied by random personalities and AI teams. Military options are made difficult by teams and the need to possibly tech deep, which means building a fine empire. Space is generally the slowest VC.

So maybe Culture isn't such a bad option? We could be 30-40 turns from a culture VC a bit after 1000AD, and then be free to focus on the Wizard, knowing that we just need to pump the slider for 30-40 turn at the end of the game (in parallel with whatever else it is we need to do).

One option is to just play TMIT style and build a great empire which is flexible. Rush a neighbor if possible, but in general aim for 10 cities by 0 AD, and early Oxford and Liberalism, to leave options open. But that approach rules out early conquest or culture, and may not result in a competitive date

Damn, this is hard! I'm off to modify the test game and get into some micro.

OK I've updated the test game as far as I'm able. It's attached as "BC-3960_Rev1". It's unlikely that Toku will start so close in the real game!

I haven't opened the real game, so not sure what techs we have? Hunting and Archery?

In any case, some testing assuming we settle 1W (and I added Hunting and Archery):
Worker first takes 15 turns, working the sheeps.
Growth takes 8 turns if we don't build Worker first
Mining is 5 turns, AH is 8 (although perhaps less if we have Hunting), Writing is 11 turns, BW is 11 turns.

In a quick test I teched mining-AH-Writing-BW and built worker-warrior(suspend; wasted hammers)-Library, improved sheep,gems,PH. Completed BW at turn 28. Then myst-med-PH (turn 37); completed Library turn 38. Then Maths-COL and chopped (3 forests, including mining 2nd PH) into Oracle, and popped a GS on turn 51 for an Academy.

Oracle for CS on Turn 53 (1880 BC) with size 5 capital, BW, Academy. The switch to Slavery/Beurocracy takes a turn. It would be better to delay Oracle sightly and have a 2nd city working corn/cows, perhaps completed at size 4. Another worker would also be required, perhaps at the expense of some more forests. Some people also like defenders and fog busters...

On turn 54 the capital is producing between 47-59/turn, depending on whether we use specialists.

I've attached a save from turn 52 if people want to play around.

I didn't tech Wheel-we have no happiness or health issues.

I don't see any need to test another site other than 1W. For the first 50 turns, the sheep, gems and 2 mined plains hills are sufficient. The lake/spices/silk are nice micro options.
I note that we'll want Pottery soon for some cottages, and of course Calendar is more attractive than normal.
We may be hard pressed to also build the Pyramids with this opening.

<Cross post with Dredd>


Okay tried to post this earlier but had problems.

I think that settling 1W is probably the best choice.

Second, I ran a couple non-scientific tests with team AIs and what I'm seeing is the Oracle going around T75 ish. T73 in one test T78 in another. The start was not right for us and the AI are just random but I think it is a fair assessment of when we need to shoot for bringing the oracle home.

I also ran a couple quick tests on the original test save with the gems and such quickly added (need to revise it better tonight before I upload it) and with research of Mining->Myst->Poly->Priest->Writing->CoL->Math. I was able to get the Oracle to 2 turns left on T55. I also squeezed out 1 new city, 2 workers and a handful of archers.

The problem I ran into was that on T75 I was still 8 turns out from finishing Math. I feel sure we can shave some turns off this with some better MM but we are talking about 11-13 turns of MM to get to a safe date of T70-72. And then even more if we are going to try for other techs.

So Dredd is correct that the oracle isn't going in 3000bc but we need to aim for T70 completion date in order to guarantee that we get it. After T72, I believe we are just riding on luck as to finishing or getting fail gold.


Edit: Granted I didn't MM much at all but dang, I can't wait to get home and look at this turn log. All those techs and the oracle and another city all by T53. Hell if we can pull that off in the real game then we are going to rock this one hard!!

So, OK i'm fully in, Settle the W desert is the way to go.

Me and UT already debated about the problems teching fast enough to have the Oracle before turn 72 (i just updated the first page with that goal and with some HoF date, BTW).

But Dredd's report is impressive. Already DLed the saves, now i'm goin' to look at them. Deeply, of course.

edit: done

IMO, dredd's test has 2 weaknesses:
1) not a second city founded
2) Toku so close protects us from barbs a lot, so we can't have a real clue of what we can expect on that side

secondarily, BW without slavery and in no need for Copper having archers for defense proved to be useless.

AH first can be a good idea, to go straight to writing and pity if we renounce to have the 2nd prereq (PH). it's good also for having sheeps, since it adds 1C to the pasture.

So i think that AH-Wri and worker-archer can be the opening, then library, settler
the wheel to benefit from TR with city 2 and to speed the settler movement, then the path to PH

Then a note: we have archery but not hunting, like all the monarch and higher AIs not starting with hunting as a Civ.

unclethrill said:

Edit: Granted I didn't MM much at all but dang, I can't wait to get home and look at this turn log. All those techs and the oracle and another city all by T53. Hell if we can pull that off in the real game then we are going to rock this one hard!!

Click to expand...

Unfortunately I didn't have a 2nd city, and only 1 worker, and 0 military built. I also added in Hunting in my test, so that's 4ish turns to add right there.

It needs work, I just wanted to see what's possible. Teching for me was extremely fast, hammers were the limiting factor. It will be difficult to fit in worker-archer-worker-library-settler-Oracle before turn 70. Bronze Working will be the key, allowing lots of forest chops.

I think Mining then beeline Writing (via AH of course!) is the way to go. Then probably BW to allow forest chops in our hammer-poor capital, and chop a second worker. Only then move onto Priesthood. Then definitely Maths for extra hammers from forests.

Dredd, it seems research will not be the limiting factor, but hammers.
You proved this is true, let's see how it can work with BW but without a 2nd worker.

And yes, hunting gives a good bonus for AH. We can also try to see how it works if we actually research it. Saving 4 turns on AH can be a good pay-off for it.

Off to test, now.

I will test tonight and tomorrow.

I think we all agree on the starting location but the first build and tech are up in the air still so not sure if WithTea wants to move and settle and wait for testing to commence or if he just wants to wait. The settling of the city should reveal a few more squares but they are probably not significant to the testing.

I moved Toku far south, it's highly improbable that we start with an AI so close.
And given us the correct techs.

So, i managed the Oracle for CS on turn 64 (CS in, ready to revolt) with NYC settled by the stone in 1840 BC.

Research path was:
mining - AH (hunting is not worth researching) - wri (but we can also delay it, we can't build the library so early)
wheel - BW - math
Myst, Poly, PH, CoL

build:
worker - archer - Lib - archer - settler - Oracle
academy in 1680 BC (turn 58)

hammers were the problem, definitely. We can find some better MM, but not much, i think.

I improved the sheeps before the gems: we wanna grow fast, right? I also delayed the PH forest chop/mine until after math. Timed perfectly, just built 2 roads first, which we need. Overflow to the settler, then switched to archer. We can even risk and skip it, not a single barb in sight if not some animal.

I'm also thinking to change the starting research to:
AH - mining - wheel
wri - BW - math

unclethrill said:

I will test tonight and tomorrow.

I think we all agree on the starting location but the first build and tech are up in the air still so not sure if WithTea wants to move and settle and wait for testing to commence or if he just wants to wait. The settling of the city should reveal a few more squares but they are probably not significant to the testing.

Click to expand...

Needless to bother WithTea with another half-turn.

Let's draw a solid plan for the opening, then we can start.

Worker first and Mining -> AH seem obvious, so the other details until turn 70 are what are up for discussion it looks like. I'm wondering if we can't delay the library until after the oracle in favor of an earlier settler, 2nd worker, or 2nd archer. Yes it would slow research a tad, but it looks like you guys are slamming the CS sling out of the park with the tests, so a slight dip in research may not kill our chances while an earlier 2nd city would be very nice.

Once again concerning the vc: sorry WithTea, but I really have to disagree as to culture via wonders. Like Dredd and I mentioned, almost across the board HOF and otherwise the best culture times are a result of a cottaged bureau capital with a few select wonders (oracle, sistine's, taj), a cottage spammed city, and a GP farm running max artists, all with the slider at 100% culture.

Although I'm not ruling out the mids since we have stone, and our GP farm would then double as a science city (but in reality specialists in the gp farm would only account for 12-27 or so beakers). As far as marble is concerned, yeah it's super helpful for Sistine's, cathedrals, and NE, but we shouldn't rule out culture if we don't have it.

So much of our VC decision depends on the wizard. If he can be taken out with Rifles/Cannons or less then culture is viable, but so is conquest/domination which would also be faster.

If he's modern armor or something, then we have to tech past lib obviously which makes culture a less awesome choice. However, a good culture time takes early commitment to the appropriate strategies (ie: settle gp farm 2nd or 3rd, finding religions, tech path, etc), so if we don't find the wizard soonish I think Conquest is the way to go.

Morning. You guys were busy last night!

Yeah it looks like we have consensus on 1W for settling. The question is what to do after we settle. Lots of test games to compile data. I've always found that useful for SGOTM.

My three cents is that I've never been fond of whipping. It has to be done just right. For me it's the most difficult to master doing well aspect of the game. We can use it to some effect, but I think that you dredd are the only one of us who uses it regularly enough as their economic basis to be called good at it.

I think that we have a lot of unknowns. I'd say we go for a flexible culture at the moment. Meaning we work culture with hammers, and tech as much as possible until we have at least a clue what it is we're facing. The large amount of unknowns seems to be just to make sure nobody can pull a super quick conquest/domination victory, because they might be up against a mech infantry. At the same time anyone who goes culture while ignoring science, won't be able to get things done. Guess that I'm saying that it looks like someone went and put effort in to make sure that a FULL game is played. That we're going to have to be good at everything. Doable, but probably not doable before we'd meet the real Frank L. Baum aka the Wizard, which would be the late 1800s. We need information.

I'd like to see what the test games say before committing to the first tech/build.

WithTea said:

Morning. You guys were busy last night!

Click to expand...

Exactly what I thought when I opened the thread this morning

Looks like we cross posted. I don't think going half culture half tech will work. Better to go all out one or the other. If the wizzy is modern armor then space may be a better plan. If we don't find out what he is within the first 100 or so turns I think we can throw culture out the window.

I find it interesting that you bring up the original WoOz. Maybe neilmeister had him in mind and purposely made a game that couldn't be won until ~1800.

Let's not forget he may just be a civ, though it seems more likely he's a unit.