[Religion and Revolution]: Horses Produced on Plots

raystuttgart

Civ4Col Modder
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
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Location
Stuttgart, Germany
Hi guys,

I simply want to do some brainstorming about this.
I don't want to do this (not yet), because I am not even sure it is a good idea. ;)
(I am neither pro nor contra this. I am very undecided.)

However I have been thinking about this several times in the last years.
(Also had several discussions about that topic with other modders.)

Concept:

1.Currently Profession Rancher works as "Building Profession". (Like "Fur Trader")
I am thinking about making it a "Plot-Profession". (Like "Trapper")

2. For me a Bonus-Ressource on the Map does not mean "something is there".
For me a Bonus-Ressource means "it is very suitable for".

So having Bonus-Ressource Horses would not mean "There are horses." but "It is very suitable terrain to breed horses".

Thus Bonus-Ressource Horses would not conflict with aspects of authenticity and historical correctness for me.

In those times horses were usually bred in the wild and not in buildings.
Rancher was an outdoor profession.
(Talking about historical correctness.)

3. Generally AI would not have any problems to handle that.

"Problem": Natives should still not be able to do horse breeding until they acutally acquired horses by Europeans.
(But this could be solve by coding.)

4. First small "pro": We would have one more free slot in city for other buildings.

5. Second small "pro": It would work similar to Sheep and Cattle in our internal Preview.

-------------------------

I simply want to have some brainstorming about this. :)
 
I very much like the idea of breeding them on plots. It is more realistic and atmospheric in two senses, first that like you said horses were bred usually outside and second that horses shouldn't be competing with humans for food in the manner they do.

2. For me a Bonus-Ressource on the Map does not mean "something is there".
For me a Bonus-Ressource means "it is very suitable for".

So having Bonus-Ressource Horses would not mean "There are horses." but "It is very suitable terrain to breed horses".

Thus Bonus-Ressource Horses would not conflict with aspects of authenticity and historical correctnerss for me.

In those times horses were usually bred in the wild and not in buildings.
Rancher was an outdoor profession.
(Talking about historical correctness.)

I imagine bonus resources in the exact same way. In fact, I think we should make it more explicit in their names, and bring back the bonus resource naming scheme from the original Colonization: for instance, "Cotton" being named "Prime Cotton" instead.

"Problem": Natives should still not be able to do horse breeding until they acutally acquired horses by Europeans.
(But this could be solve by coding.)

This I believe would be rather easy to solve. We can either simply require horses being stored in the city for further horse production to be done, or (I think this second solution is better) rather than have a set number of horses produced, have a proportion of horses produced, as in my livestock breeding modcomp, but applied to plots rather than a building.
 
Yes it makes more sense to have horse production competing for land use, rather than food.

Although I would like it if horse pasture could be created relatively easily from most cleared land - not desert or tundra of course.

Does this mean that I can no longer have fish fed horses? I quite liked using small islands for horse production.
 
Does this mean that I can no longer have fish fed horses? I quite liked using small islands for horse production.

Good joke, agaro! Thank you. However, there is one very small detail. Real Horses don't eat the fish.

And now seriously, I plan to prepare my version of Horse production during about one week. Here some very rough remarks.

Bonus-Ressource "Horses", "Yes" or "No"?

"Yes" if you play on the global Earth map. Horses must be presented as a bonus resource for such regions as, for instance, Mongolia.

"No" if you play on American maps because horses absent on that continent before colonization. Please, read this post "What the Europeans brought to the Americas?" "Religion and Revolution" mod is exactly this case. Thus, horses is not a Bonus-Ressource.

Horses Production. Where, in city or outside?

Here there is only one variant of answer. Only outside the city. In the american period of history horses production was related with ranches, cowboys, etc., that is outside the village walls.

Now where exactly Horses could be produced?

I plan to implement three limits.
1. The highest latitude couldn't be higher that about 75 degree.
2. The tile must have at least 2 or 3 Food and have NO forest/light forest/jungles at all. Such terrains as Grassland, Plains and Hills all are OK.
3. A source of fresh water should present, tag
Code:
<bRiverSide>1</bRiverSide>.

How horses could be produced?

1. Some infrastructure should be created on the selected land tile. Here I plan to make some graphical presentation. Or a simple Pasture, or a growing Pasture, or something else. I don't decided yet.

2. This infrastructure could be created by our PIONEER.

What is required for Horse production?

Two conditions:
1. Good land tile that corresponds to minimal limits by latitude, food and water.
2. Some quantity of Horses imported from Europe. Our SCOUT required

Code:
 			<YieldEquipedNums>
				<YieldEquipedNum>
					<YieldType>YIELD_HORSES</YieldType>
					<iYieldAmount>50</iYieldAmount>
				</YieldEquipedNum>
			</YieldEquipedNums>

thus, I guess 50 Horses at normal game speed would be a correct value.

Who will produce Horses? Efficiency?

Only three units.
1. Rancher with his normal productivity.
2. Scout with 2 lower productivity
3. Colonist who try to be a Rancher with minimal possible productivity.

For all other units I plan to add a new tag

Code:
			<ProfessionsNotAllowed>
				<ProfessionNotAllowed>
					<VoidProfessionType>PROFESSION_RANCHER</VoidProfessionType>
					<bIsNotAllowed>1</bIsNotAllowed>
				</ProfessionNotAllowed>			
			</ProfessionsNotAllowed>
 
Hi guys,

first of all, let us please agree on this:
(Anything else will cause us massive problems with our new Yields and Bonus-Resources in Release 2.)
Spoiler :

For me a Bonus-Ressource on the Map does not mean "something is there".
For me a Bonus-Ressource means "it is very suitable for".

So having Bonus-Ressource Horses would not mean "There are horses." but "It is very suitable terrain to breed horses".

Thus Bonus-Ressource Horses would not conflict with aspects of authenticity and historical correctness for me.

Actually Cotton for example was not native to the New World !


After that is said, here is my concept for this. :)
(As I see, most of you share the basic idea.)

Rebuild of Breeding Horses

1. City Buildings for horse production are removed, because they won't be needed anymore.
(For Europeans and Kings.)

2. Profession Rancher will become a "Plot"-Profession requiring at least 2 yields of horses on the plot.
(For Europeans and Kings.)

3. Specialist "Experienced Rancher" and all other units stay as they are.

4. There will be a Bonus Horses which will give 3 yield horses.

Generated on Plains, Grassland and Savannah without any kind of forest feature.

5. The Terrain (Plains, Grassland and Savannah) themselves will have no horses normally without the Bonus.

But there will be an increase with river.

6. However you can build an Improvement "Horse Ranch" on these terrains (Plains, Grassland and Savannah) even if there is no bonus.

"Horse Ranch" will give +2 and additional +1 increase for horses if there is a river.

7. Natives will still use old system for breeding horses.

They cannot build improvements.

-----------------------

Some numbers:

Terrain without improvement or bonus: 0 Horses
Terrain with river but without improvement or bonus: 0 Horses
Terrain with bonus: 3 Horses
Terrain with bonus and river: 4 Horses
Terrain with improvement: 2 Horses
Terrain with improvement and river: 3 Horses
Terrain with bonus and improvement: 5 Horses
Terrain with bonus and improvement and river: 7 Horses

-----------------------

Summary:

1. This solution is realistic to my opinion.
2. This solution will ensure that Natives cannot produce horses before they got them from Europeans.
3. This solution will ensure that Horses (which are strategic) can be produced in sufficient amounts.
4. AI will generally be able to handle this.
5. It will be fairly easy to understand for human players.
6. Bonus Ressoure Horses works the same as other Bonus Ressources.
7. It is extremely easy to implement ! (Almost all XML.)
8. We get an extra city slot, which will be very valuable later on.
9. Almost no risk of bugs.

-----------------------

Let us go with an solution, that is easy and working.

I know it is very tempting to create extremely versified and complicated features in DLL.
But please, let us not do complicated coding here, if not necessary.

Feedback ? :)
 
Feedback ? :)

Your proposal is absolutely acceptable for me. It's a little bit simplified variant for Horses that I develop.

One question concerning graphics. Are you plan to have only one improvement ("Horse Pasture" or "Ranch") or you will have a "growing improvement" like Horse_Pasture => Ranch?
 
Your proposal is absolutely acceptable for me.

Great. :)

It's a little bit simplified variant for Horses that I develop.

I would really not like to make this feature / concept more complicated.
(Sometimes easier really is better. :) )

One question concerning graphics. Are you plan to have only one improvement ("Horse Pasture" or "Ranch") or you will have a "growing improvement" like Horse_Pasture => Ranch?

We will have "Growing Improvements" for all improvements. :)
(But that is a concept of its own and I wanted to do it in Release 2 together with all the other "Economy" features and concepts.)
 
first of all, let us please agree on this:
(Anything else will cause us massive problems with our new Yields and Bonus-

Yes I agree.

2. Profession Rancher will become a "Plot"-Profession requiring at least 2 yields of horses on the plot.

Should this say "at least 2 yields of food"? It would seem a lot of work to add mini horse symbols to each plot yield.

3. Profession Rancher will also require 30 horses just like Profession Pioneer requires 50 Tools.
(This can be done by XML without code changes.)

4. Specialist "Experienced Rancher" and all other units stay as they are.

Some numbers:

Terrain without improvement or bonus: 0 Horses
Terrain with river but without improvement or bonus: 0 Horses
Terrain with bonus: 3 Horses
Terrain with bonus and river: 4 Horses
Terrain with improvement: 2 Horses
Terrain with improvement and river: 3 Horses
Terrain with bonus and improvement: 5 Horses
Terrain with bonus and improvement and river: 7 Horses

-----------------------

Yes, this sounds good. I didn't like the earlier idea of requiring a river, as I thought it would be too limiting.

I presume the production numbers are for a basic colonist being assigned as a Rancher. But is it doubled for the Master Rancher? Also what about for the Converted Native - would they still get a +1 bonus?

A related question: Do you have any plans for other animal husbandry in versions of this mod. If so, will these compete with horses for the same pasture squares?
 
Should this say "at least 2 yields of food"?

No, it needs to be "horses" for this concept to work.

It would seem a lot of work to add mini horse symbols to each plot yield.

Not at all. :)
KJ and even myself have done this uncounted times.

I presume the production numbers are for a basic colonist being assigned as a Rancher. But is it doubled for the Master Rancher? Also what about for the Converted Native - would they still get a +1 bonus?

Yes, yes and yes. :)

A related question: Do you have any plans for other animal husbandry in versions of this mod.

Yes. We will have Cattle (base of production for Leather) and Sheep (base of production for Wool) in Release 2.
(This is all part of the old internal Preview which we are not using anymore.)

If so, will these compete with horses for the same pasture squares?

No, because "Cattle" and "Sheep" are supposed to be limited on the corresponding Bonus-Ressources only.
 
1. Some infrastructure should be created on the selected land tile. Here I plan to make some graphical presentation. Or a simple Pasture, or a growing Pasture, or something else. I don't decided yet.

Couple very draft scenes for Horse plot production.

1. Horse Pasture as a first level improvement



2. Horse Ranch as a second level (final) improvement



Screens made from one of my unpublished test mods. Part of Horses are animated (Bonus-Horses), other horses are just models.
 
By the way:

Could you please add icon for "horses" to resource_icons_64ea.dds ?
(Simply put it at the end of the one you find in our internal version and commit it to SVN, when you are done.)
 
By the way:

Could you please add icon for "horses" to resource_icons_64ea.dds ?
(Simply put it at the end of the one you find in our internal version and commit it to SVN, when you are done.)

Yes, I can, but I need more fresh version of resource_icons_64ea.dds. The current version of this dds file (TAC/R&R) is tooooo old.

Addon:

I found this version. Probably, this is one of last variants for RWL.

P.S. Oop! Here no more free space to add new icons. I have to extend resource_icons_64ea.dds again. I will try to this work tomorrow.
 
Yes, I can, but I need more fresh version of resource_icons_64ea.dds. The current version of this dds file (TAC/R&R) is tooooo old.

Addon:

I found this version. Probably, this is one of last variants for RWL.

P.S. Oop! Here no more free space to add new icons. I have to extend resource_icons_64ea.dds again. I will try to this work tomorrow.

Please take a look into the Preview in SVN.
(In there you will find the most current one you had made for me during RWL.)

Simply add it at the end of that one. :thumbsup:
 
Please take a look into the Preview in SVN.
(In there you will find the most current one you had made for me during RWL.)

Simply add it at the end of that one. :thumbsup:

Thank you, this Preview version has already extended resource_icons_64ea.dds.

Addition:

I downloaded resource_icons_64ea.dds with Horses on server.
 
i like your idea - as for your problem about native horse breeding, i feel there should be certain resources exclusive to natives or europeans. native resources would spawn on the map and european would simply not be able to extract its yield - while on the other end, a european resource would be "planted". that is, horse becomes a unit that is not transported by wagons.

buy horse from europe. bring to new world. click "build pasture" button. horse unit is sacrificed, and horse resource is placed on same tile. in fact, this model could work well with a lot of resources.
 
as for your problem about native horse breeding,

We don't have a problem here. :)

... i feel there should be certain resources exclusive to natives or europeans. native resources would spawn on the map and european would simply not be able to extract its yield - while on the other end, a european resource would be "planted". that is, horse becomes a unit that is not transported by wagons.

buy horse from europe. bring to new world. click "build pasture" button. horse unit is sacrificed, and horse resource is placed on same tile. in fact, this model could work well with a lot of resources.

Our model for ressources and yields will work very differently.
It is all figured out, don't worry. :)

See, you have to take care of many different aspects:
AI, game fun / usability, balance, authenticity ...
 
@KJ:

When you are done with "Horse Pasture", could you send me all graphics needed to build the feature ? :thumbsup:

* Improvement itself
* Button for Worldbuilder
* Button for Build-Action

I guess, we better wait with "Growing Improvements" until we are working on Release 2.
 
Hi everyone,
Hi guys,
Rebuild of Breeding Horses

1. City Buildings for horse production are removed, because they won't be needed anymore.
(For Europeans, Natives and Kings.)
Well I'm not really fond of this idea. I like Androrc livestock breeding. But I'm open to this discussion...

2. Profession Rancher will become a "Plot"-Profession requiring at least 2 yields of horses on the plot.
Seems logical if we do this feature!

3. Profession Rancher will also require 30 horses just like Profession Pioneer requires 50 Tools.
(This can be done by XML without code changes.)
Yes this is easy indeed. We should of course do that. I was going to ask the team, if everyone would agree to implement Livestock breeding. And of course I wanted to stop horse slaughtering, and change the horses needed to build a stable/pasture into tools.
Whatever we will do 30 seems a lot. I really liked the idea of being able to produce horses with only two units (in Col94 you only needed 2)!


4. Specialist "Experienced Rancher" and all other units stay as they are.
I don't understand. You want a super specialist?

5. There will be a Bonus Horses which will give 3 yield horses.
Generated on Plains, Grassland and Savannah without any kind of forest feature.

6. The Terrain (Plains, Grassland and Savannah) themselves will have no horses normally without the Bonus.

But there will be an increase with river.

7. However you can build an Improvement "Horse Ranch" on these terrains (Plains, Grassland and Savannah) even if there is no bonus.

"Horse Ranch" will give +2 and additional +1 increase for horses if there is a river.
This is really why this idea bothers me... Actually, I get the problem with the actual version (even if we use Androrc modcomp). Breeding horses would require one land plot. But almost any plot would do the job.
The most realistic idea, would be to "remove" on plot from city's free plots when you put a rancher in a stable...
Sounds quite awful to implement.

Or, if you want, you would have to build an improvement, on a specific plot, and that specific plot would be used for horse production, but I still like best a proportional increase (horses output increase = a 2% on the horses in your colony)...
 
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