AI Tech Shooting Ahead

SO I finally tried Communitas for the first time since Gem and G&K.

I am using n a bunch of Whowards Pick n Mix.
Using version 3.9.3. Cleared the cache and Mud folders.
King, Continents +, Epic, Large game, as Carthage.

Whowards mod has a version of Info Addict that allows you to see everything when the So and so has compiled their list of...

It is turn 37 currently and I have yet to meet any of the other 9 players. I have 1 city Pop 3. I am in last place Tech wise with 4 Techs. SO far number 1 has 9 Techs, (Seems pretty impossible)... Number 2 - 5 has 7 Techs, Numbers 6 - 8 has 6 Techs and number 9 has 5 Techs.

That is an awful lot of Goody Huts!

Oh and by the way. I got one of my Techs via a goody Hut.

Going to plug away for a bit but this is crazy.

EDIT: Beakers per turn. Again I am in last.
11 10 9 9 8 8 8 8 7 7(me in last)

InfoAddict will not pick up the AI Science Bonuses from CEP. The next build will hopefully lower the teching rate of the AI.

As mentioned in the other thread, I have completed some more tests with the modified AI.

No change. Although the output is comparable, after 50 turns I can still be behind other civs in the TECH race.

One possibility is the AI does a better job than me of specializing their cities with specialists and building choice to maximize the output early on.
Personally, I think there are gifts of GS from CSs and other sources that assist them. It still amazes me to see how 'chummy' each civ can be with CSs so early, to the point of them getting the bonuses of the resources and units from these CSs.

Not having played a vanilla game for a while it is hard to get a baseline for comparison, we are rather going off 'gut feelings' as to what it should be.

If you believe that AIResearchPercent does not affect AI tech'ing then you can test this by setting the values to a high value like 2000 and see if the AI takes off or not.

stackpointer said:

If you believe that AIResearchPercent does not affect AI tech'ing then you can test this by setting the values to a high value like 2000 and see if the AI takes off or not.

Click to expand...

I don't know why I keep questioning your decisions?

Just tried a game with the AIResearchPercent @ 2000

Wow.

Turns 4 - 6 Everyone else moved to the Classical era.
Turn 12 a civ moved into the Medieval and I met Indonesia. They have 19 techs to my 2.

So I am off for some servings of humble pie and a re-think.

Whowards mod is not Info Addict.

UI - Enhanced Rankings
Is a Modularised version of Dale Kent's Advanced Civilization Ranking Popup

Instead of giving just one ranking list it gives all of them anytime a ranking list would normally pop up.

So it only gives you the info every 35 turns or so but it is not Info Addict so may be more accurate.

@Dunkah

I thought I'd give that mod a shot and see for myself.

Turn 175
List of civs by Techs
Me 28 and last. Alexander, my neighbour, 34 joint 1st with an unmet civ

List of civs by
Me & Alexander 106 in 1st place with an unmet civ next place. Last place is Pacal with 46 yet he is 2nd in Techs with 33.

Turn 200
List of civs by Techs
Me and 3 others 36 and in equal 3rd with Alexander at 40 in 1st

List of civs by
Me 104 in 5th, Alexander in 1st with 186
Shaka, who must have been the unmet civ at turn 175 is 2nd with 138 yet he is last in Techs with 33

The story here is position in the Tech race has no direct correlation to science output.

How many cities did they have? (Pacal should be expanding I thought but could have lost a war). That plays somewhat with the correlations to science output in the early-mid stage of the game.

But I'd agree a tentative conclusion here is something fishy is going on to produce science, or that our tools for measuring science output aren't up to the task in the mod. Even with the per city penalties, there's no way a civ with half the science output should be keeping up in tech with the tech leaders, or one with a near top science output be near the bottom.

I think the damage is being done very early on. That first report was the damning one.

I had 3 techs at turn 37 and the leader had 9. Pretty much I have kept pace ever since then constantly about a 6 Tech difference to the leader.

I seemed to be gaining about 3/4 to a full tech on the bottom of the barrel players Beaker wise. which seemed about right for that time `33 turn time frame.

My guess is they are either getting some kind of huge bonus right from the get go.
Or ancient ruins are giving them repeated techs.
Or perhaps every time one civ gets a free tech it is given to all of the Ai's as well? (Wild Guess).

Will have to expirament with the first 37 turns I guess.

Please state what version you are experiencing excessive AI tech'ing and whether you have modified AIResearchPercent. I believe we have solved a major part of this problem in 3.10 but it's possible that there are other causes.

Just speaking for the game(s) I have tested, I have been using the code changes as found in 3.10.

I think we need to somehow find out what sort of 'extras' are being given to the AI at the outset.
The factors at play here just don't add up, these Techs must be the result of something other than the science.

I haven't played a vanilla game in a while, do they get these sort of bonuses? I tried a comparison last week to guage the production, but didn't focus on the possibility of gifts of Techs from ruins or CS. Perhaps someone that plays a few vanilla games may have some input.
My comparison only used 2 games from each, GEG & vanilla. The results were not as clear cut as I would have liked.

I have just started to play Cep. I have been playing Vanilla since BNW came out. I wanted to play the new game with all of the new leaders at least once before I started using the mods. Also I wanted Cep to get to a stable point.

I have not experienced the crazy Tech Numbers that I got with Cep in any of my Vanilla games really. At least I didn't notice it. I always seemed to be behind but was always able to catch up in a reasonable amount of time.

New Test: Using Cep 3.10
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First game as Boudica Epic Large Turn 34

8 - 6 - 6(Venice) - 5 - 5 - 5 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 3(me)

Beakers

14(Venice) - 11 - 11 - 10 - 8 - 8(me) - 8 - 8 - 8 - 7

So lets say that since the beginning of the game the player with the most Techs has consistently had 3 more beakers per turn than me. Best case scenario that would be ~100 beakers.

I have spent 79 and 117 on Pottery and Writing Total = 196.

Add to that 100 beakers and total is 296.

Starting from the least expensive to the most.

Pottery=79
Animal Husbandry=81
Archery=81
Mining=84
Total = 325

So that means the best they could possibly have done is 4 Techs including Agriculture. Assuming they did not beeline. Venice has already asked for an embassy in my land so they are not going for strictly 1st tier Techs either. So my guess is the leader was granted 5 free techs and the 2-4 place Civs got 2 or 3 free Techs.

So that would mean that the highest Civ was granted 4 or 5 free Techs in the first 34 turns?

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Second game as Shaka Epic Large Turn 37

8 - 6 - 6(Dido) - 6 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 4(Haile) - 4(Theodora) - 4(me)

Beakers

14 - 11 - 10 - 10 - 9 - 8(me) - 7(Theodora) - 7(Dido) - 7(Haile) - 7

Managed to get one more Tech than last game. Went for lowest cost Tech available. Got 1 for free from a Goody Hut! I am 2 turns away from a 5th Tech.

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Third game as Pacal Epic Large Turn 37 VANILLA GAME! (except for IGE and Enhanced Rankings)

5(me) - 5(Alex) - 5(Darius) - 5 - 5 - 5 - 5(Caesar) - 5 - 5 - 5(Gandhi)

Beakers

8(me) - 8(Alex) - 8(Gandhi) - 7 - 6 - 6 - 6(Darius) - 6 - 5(Caesar) - 5

Wow! Went for lowest cost Tech available. Got 1 for free from a Goody Hut!

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Fourth game as Elizabeth Epic Large Turn 37 VANILLA GAME! (except for IGE and Enhanced Rankings)

6 - 5 - 5 - 5 - 5 - 5 - 5 - 5 - 4 - 4(me)

Beakers

7(me) - 7 - 7 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 5 - 5

Crappy start. Looks like I am on an island alone! Went for lowest cost Tech available. Got 0 for free from a Goody Huts!