SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

I had the same issue. I went into WB and deleted the lion. Now if we could just figure out how to do that in the real game... :lol:

This does bring up the point that we may hit a road block like this. Our perfect plans can easily be put off track by something like this. If this happens when you're playing the real game, you'd stop and post the issue in the thread. If needed, we may need to re-plan. It's all part of the fun.
 
Regarding a Culture VC, I say we just continue down our current path which includes the Contruction sling and taking on the Toku Bros. The main thing we're doing that we wouldn't necessarily do if we were going Culture is building SH and the Oracle outside of Delhi... and we've already gone around and around on that one. ;)

EDIT: That's 32:culture:/turn base after they've doubled in cultural output!
 
how much of an impact will delaying the settling of east gold city cause?
Who knows? COuld be several turns. That would suck and it may well happen. Forests popping up in our workers' paths can throw my planning off too. Sometimes, a forest popping up won't be a problem if you're thinking ahead.

An animal can screw up our workers coming to the sheep also, that's why I sent it SE SE.

And like Mitchum says, the biggest lesson I learned in SGs is to STOP when unsure. Never go on, because that almost always leads to a mistake.
 
Planning, t38-onwards.

Cities:
Delhi grows at max food for 7 turns, building Stonehenge, then a Settler at max hammers, followed by a quick library with growth while the forests are still there.
Zlatorog finishes its worker, then builds Stonehenge, working the gold.
Gold-E-Locks grows on a warrior, working sheep, then gold. It'll ramp up to 6hpt on the last turn of the warrior, for overflow reasons, into a worker.

My thought is to play through to Writing, and/or Stonehenge, and then hand off to someone else, but I'll need to pause for at least a few minutes at the end of BW to work out the beakers on Writing - we don't know if we'll have any bonus beakers from Toku learning BW.

Worker actions:
Before the city is founded, see "unit moves".
Then, both workers pasture the sheep. Both workers put a turn of farming into a tile near the gold. Both mine for a turn. Then they split: one mines to the end, while the other runs ahead to start chopping Delhi. (Deer, then 1-chopNW, chop Delhi SE, chop Delhi SW.)
The other follows, chopping Deer-NW and Deer-NNW.
The Zlatorog worker will mine (1t), prechop S (1t), chop W, then chop S.

Tech:
Bronze Working (0%-30%-100%) - Writing (not sure yet) - Wheel.

Unit Moves:
The eastern warrior moves E, through the lion, onto the hill outside Osaka, right away.
If it needs to heal, it can do this in the city, and then moves westward, via the forest 3E1S of marble, where he'll camp if there's trouble.
The western warrior will have to move south via Gems-S. There's no better way to deal with the lion near gems. It's a 95+% battle, but it's still a slight risk.
The captured worker will follow the plan laid out pictorially - it'll head west at first, being safe, then scout a hill on the turn the settler should venture into the unknown. Then both workers hightail it to the sheep, making sure to stay in the south of the hilly area, where it's safe.

Stopping points:
We lose a warrior.
Toku refuses to CF on t41.
Stonehenge BIFAL. Then we'll have plenty of gold to play with.
Scary animals which want to eat our domestic units.
Bronze Working shows us we have copper.
Bronze Working shows us we have no copper. :p
 
As for planning Gems City - if there's enough commerce, I'm happy to spend the turn on 2F2C - but that's the city I don't think should build a barracks - it has no production, except for some forests.
That's the place which should be building a Library and running scientists while the rest of the empire is in VikingMode
 
As for planning Gems City - if there's enough commerce, I'm happy to spend the turn on 2F2C - but that's the city I don't think should build a barracks - it has no production, except for some forests.
That's the place which should be building a Library and running scientists while the rest of the empire is in VikingMode
That's fine by me. I'd even be willing to consider more libraries, like in Gold-E-Locks, since it can easily support scientists too.

Gems could also build a galley, in that case, or even earlier, an exploring wb.

EDIT: If the exploring wb doesn't have far to go, it could end up being the wb for MarbleCrabs or the Fish city eventually.

YOu can play whenever you're ready, as far as I'm concerned, ZPV.

.
 
Also, since we're up to 18 worldwide cities, it might be wise to cehck for a barb city near Gold-E-Locks that might prevent it from settling there. Or just select the settler and see if our site is still available before moving it each turn.
 
Test 2 Warrior W of Delhi devoured by Lion on turn 42
Possible Mitigation (what are we gaining by leaving our cultural zones before being able to go directly to fog busting point?)

Test 3 Lion Devoured East warrior now occupies future City Site. (Was not at full combat strength when engaged due to attacking weakened lion previously)
Possible Mitigation (Camp out on Gold hill so is prepared to clear future city site if necessary)

Test 7 Variant Moved East Warrior to Gold hill (Lion attacked warrior on hill and warrior went down to 1.4 (first time actually able to settle city)
Healed in place

Was able to heal E warrior and move to fog busting point where was able to fortify for 1 turn before being attacked (and won!)

Governor in zlatorog started working deer when stonehedge was complete... We want this? I started working the gold again

DOH! never sued for peace and now he wont take it on turn 1840 bc

Turn 54. Worker is listed as "Fat" not "Fast". May cause self esteem issues.
 
Strategic planning for this Scenario is extremely difficult because we have no idea what lies ahead. Cultural is rarely the fastest victory, but could easily be in this set-up. Religious is usually the fastest but could easily be nigh on impossible here. If an AI is mountain-locked from us, we're doomed.
Only if they are mountain locked, have 4 Cities, and cannot meet us are we doomed. Otherwise, an AI with 3* or less Cities should take a gifted City anywhere on the map (* this number comes from anecdotal evidence, not code-digging).

As long as an AI will take a gifted City, then we can give them the Apostolic Palace's Religion.

I'm more concerned about an AI that has room for more than 3 Cities on a landmass that can only be reached with Caravels or Galleons... we might need to tech up to Astronomy for Galleons in that case in order to build them a City or to capture a City, "infect" that City with the Apostolic Palace Religion, and gift said City back to them.

Part of the problem is that we've already researched Meditation, so we'd either have to avoid Code of Laws on a Maintenance-heavy map or else Lightbulb Philosophy, and then we'd need to avoid Theology (which is needed to build the Apostolic Palace) or else be forced to use our Lightbulbs up the Paper + Education path and use Liberalism on Astronomy.

We're also likely to be getting Great Prophets, which don't contribute to Lightbulbing toward Astronomy.


What we haven't really discussed is going for Space. We have Philosophical = cheap Universities. We have some good Commerce Resources and lots of green land for building Cottages or better, Farms and then later Watermills and Workshops (since we aren't Financial I'd skip the Cottages).


We wouldn't need to found or capture additional Religions like we would with a Religious Victory.

We wouldn't need to deal with the diplomatic challenge of Heathen AIs, at least two of which are hard to get Open Borders with.

We have access to a Stone Resource for an early Oxford University. After capturing a City or two from Toku, we'll also have 6 or more Cities that can quickly whip regular Universities.

I'm not saying that we should shift gears now, but LowtherCastle did suggest that it's better to think of the ideas ahead of time and discard them, rather than only thinking of the ideas after the fact.


LowtherCastle said:
So to explore we need to DoW. :lol:
Or else build Courthouses, accumulate Espionage Points, and send out Spies. Caravels could work, too.
 
ZPV said:
Delhi grows at max food for 7 turns, building Stonehenge...
Zlatorog finishes its worker, then builds Stonehenge
Just to clarify, am I right in thinking that Stonehenge will be completed in Zlatorog, assuming that no AI completes it first?


ZPV said:
Bronze Working (0%-30%-100%)
I'll have to take your word for it, but it's weird that a number like 30% wouldn't result in partial Flasks or Gold that get truncated into nothingness. Then again, since I'm not sure how much Commerce we're making or what our bonus Flasks will be, it's one of those things where I'd really need a test game and multiple reloads just to see if there was a better way to do it.


ZPV said:
The western warrior will have to move south via Gems-S. There's no better way to deal with the lion near gems. It's a 95+% battle, but it's still a slight risk.
I don't suppose that we see the Lion every second turn or so from our Cultural Borders, such that the absense of the Lion would indicate that it was auto-killed, giving us a hint as to when to safely move there to spawn-bust for Barb Humans?


Since I can't find a recent screenshot of where the units are currently located, it's hard for me to know where exactly each unit will be moving.


ZPV said:
The captured worker will follow the plan laid out pictorially - it'll head west at first
For example, I have no idea what's going on here, since I'm not sure what is meant by this pictorial plan and I'm also not sure where it is heading west from.
 
Tech:
Bronze Working (0%-30%-100%)
I didn't notice this switch last night. Are you sure this is better than 30-0-100? 30% on the first turn gives 6base-beakers plus the two OF beakers gives 8base-beakers which is the bare minimum to get an extra beaker from Hammy knowing BW. I haven't tested it, but if you haven't either, then I think there's possibly a lost beaker in there.
 
Here are the jumppoints for 1 and 2 AIs knowing BW to get an extra beaker, in base-beakers at 100% slider:
Code:
1AI 2AIs
      3
      7
 8    
     11
     12
13    
     15
     16
17     
18    
     19
     20
21
22
23   23
     24
     25
26   26
27   27
28   28
     29
30   30
...
 
I didn't notice this switch last night. Are you sure this is better than 30-0-100? 30% on the first turn gives 6base-beakers plus the two OF beakers gives 8base-beakers which is the bare minimum to get an extra beaker from Hammy knowing BW. I haven't tested it, but if you haven't either, then I think there's possibly a lost beaker in there.

Research and overflow get their multipliers applied and rounded separately, unfortunately, so it's 6 beakers either way.
 
Just to clarify, am I right in thinking that Stonehenge will be completed in Zlatorog, assuming that no AI completes it first?
Right
I'll have to take your word for it, but it's weird that a number like 30% wouldn't result in partial Flasks or Gold that get truncated into nothingness. Then again, since I'm not sure how much Commerce we're making or what our bonus Flasks will be, it's one of those things where I'd really need a test game and multiple reloads just to see if there was a better way to do it.
That's how much research we need to complete BW in time. It's tight, so going 0% for two turns means we don't get enough beakers.
I don't suppose that we see the Lion every second turn or so from our Cultural Borders, such that the absense of the Lion would indicate that it was auto-killed, giving us a hint as to when to safely move there to spawn-bust for Barb Humans?


Since I can't find a recent screenshot of where the units are currently located, it's hard for me to know where exactly each unit will be moving.



For example, I have no idea what's going on here, since I'm not sure what is meant by this pictorial plan and I'm also not sure where it is heading west from.
Here's a link to a turn ago:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=314117&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1329589513
 
Test 2 Warrior W of Delhi devoured by Lion on turn 42
Possible Mitigation (what are we gaining by leaving our cultural zones before being able to go directly to fog busting point?)

Yes, keeping the warriors alive is going to be risky. I can't tell you how many 5% attacks I lost while playing. Luckily ZP "Toto Killer" V is really good against barb animals... ;)

Test 3 Lion Devoured East warrior now occupies future City Site. (Was not at full combat strength when engaged due to attacking weakened lion previously)
Possible Mitigation (Camp out on Gold hill so is prepared to clear future city site if necessary)

That warrior has to go to the hill to threaten Toku's city so that we can get a Cease Fire, so it's a risk we're going to have to take. I agree that he shouldn't head back west to spawn bust until he's 100% healed, but this has to be after we have the CF.

Governor in zlatorog started working deer when stonehedge was complete... We want this? I started working the gold again

We want to work the gold continuously in Zlatorog until the deer has been camped. Good call on working the gold again.

DOH! never sued for peace and now he wont take it on turn 1840 bc

Yes, a CF with Toku is critical as we don't have enough units to stop him if he comes after us with archers.

Turn 54. Worker is listed as "Fat" not "Fast". May cause self esteem issues.

:lol:

@Dhoom I don't see how a perfect Space game could compete with a well-played Cultural game. In my mind, Space isn't an option but Culture is still on the table.

@ZPV When do you plan to play?
 
Thanks for the link to the image, ZPV.

Still, I saw that image before asking about a more recent screenshot as I'm not really clear where our other units are and I also THINK that that screenshot is out of date by a turn, right? Anyway, on a high level, the plan sounds good and it sounds like it has been reviewed by a couple of people now, so I'm okay if you go ahead with it, rather than waiting for someone to get me a couple of screenshots and then waiting for me to map out the plan without having Civ 4 to help me.

What's not really clear is whether we're mostly following LowtherCastle's unit movements or if we're following a different plan. Since the PPP doesn't go into the same level of detail as LowtherCastle's comments about his test run, it's hard for me to know if it's the same thing or not.


Mitchum said:
I agree that he shouldn't head back west to spawn bust until he's 100% healed, but this has to be after we have the CF.
I will pipe up here to give a likely completely-unnecessary quick reminder that it's easy to accidentally accept Peace instead of a Cease Fire.


Mitchum said:
@Dhoom I don't see how a perfect Space game could compete with a well-played Cultural game. In my mind, Space isn't an option but Culture is still on the table.
Well, the 'Ducks might go for Space. Duckweed pulled off a solid Space game in one of the BOTMs... but then again, it was a map suited to Sid's Sushi since there were, if I recall correctly, over 100 easily-accessible Seafood Resources on the map.

I was mentioning it more so that we could say that we'd considered the idea and discarded it, rather than actually wanting to push for us to do it.
 
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