Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
ok, ive finished Brettonia, Estalia, Tilea and Skaven. theres a few changes, so Ahri could you go over them pls 
Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion
- Thread starter Psychic_Llamas
- Start date
There is a dogs of war duellist unit, the skull faced guys with cloak-shields but who cares. If you guys want duellists (personally they'd be better as detachments) I will add duellists...
*laying brick by brick deadliver gazes at the sun, shaking a fist at the cruel designers who make him get off his arse*
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
haha Deadliver 
well i think Deuellists could be a good human unit in general, avaliable to all oldworlders.
make it a Handgunner, 7 strength or so, +50% vs Heroes.
well i think Deuellists could be a good human unit in general, avaliable to all oldworlders.
make it a Handgunner, 7 strength or so, +50% vs Heroes.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Eh, screw it. Fear is pretty damn important for Cold Ones. I’ll take the -1 strength hit.
We should flipflop these two. The Phoenix Guard is called the Phoenix Guard for a reason. They guard the Phoenix Kings’ Palace and Person.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Thats what I had, but PL switched them. I am indifferent, as long as they aren't overpowered. I am commenting on the changes he has added to his design thread.
a) High elves DO, but cavalry/knights are more of a HE thing, they aren't getting a ton of extra monster units.
b) Most factions don't, there are only a few who do. Cold ones should be weaker than the knights that most other factions get; *any* faction who isn't cavalry oriented gets a weaker knight unit (or no knight). And fear is a powerful ability anyway.
For reference, the Empire just gets a standard Knight unit, and the Empire should have better knights than dark elves.
I warned you about making him angry
The moderators are pretty slow at responding to requests. Its unfortunate that civfanatics doesn't seem to be set up to, say, give PL and I moderator control over just this forum.
Well, its *silly*, and it is overpowered. Strength 7 trolls can come *very* early if you beeline them, usually when all your opponent has is strength 4 or 5 units (axemen, spearmen, archers/javilineers, with or without bronze). Adding a damaging spell (note that as a spell it is much much more powerful than an archer bombardment attack, because you can cast it and then attack) will make it very easy to steam-roll another faction with only a couple of trolls and some backup.
A strength 4 unit fortified in a city with 20% defense is only strength 5.8. If you take 20% damage off it, its now strength 4.64. Easy meat for a strength 7 troll.
Basically you are making trolls into catapults as well, which are already very powerful in this mod.
I could live with that - though I don't see that anything would be too dumb to run away. But I doubt stupid units are ones with withdraw chances anyway.
This wouldn't happen with my intended design; the resource is just provided *locally* in the city that the lodge is in, its not the same as providing a normal resource. It doesn't cause the trading problem, because you can only trade resources that are present in your capital city. So you get one bonus dyes to trade at most.
I don't know exactly how this works code-wise, but there are certainly mods that having buildings that just add a resource for that city.
Or in vanilla, the national park wonder removes coal *locally* in just that city.
Eh, afraid of the HP Lovecraft Estate I guess? A shame. Shaggoth makes me think of Scooby Doo, instead of unspeakable horrors.
I just don't think that bodyguard is wellsuited here. bodyguard is only really good on a) sacrificial units who you want to use for protecting against assassins and don't mind losing or b) really high defenders like the royal guard, who were likely to be the first defender anyway.
You don't really want it on a unit whose roll is normally as a city defender.
I agree that longbows shoudln't be getting shock cavalry promotions.
Its probably ok, but do they really need fire? I thought phoenix guard was just a name. Whatever you prefer.
Nope. Spirituality in the mod is for Araby, Ind, Nippon and Cathay.
These weren't really in the design, they were left out to be in the religious unit section.
The Empire already is basically decent at everything, so I'm not sure about giving them more knights, but maybe one more.
I don't really like it. Most heroes aren't going to accept a duel.
There is also a specialist Nippon anti-hero unit in my design (the Kensai I think), and I think the Skaven assassin. Sword dueling (ie someone who just seeks out the enemy hero in a battle and attacks them) makes much more sense than pistol-dueling.
But I'd prefer to have a couple of faction specific units rather than a generic anti-hero unit. Not needed, we want the AI to keep their heroes alive.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Brettonnia:
It also shouldn't effect ranged cavalry (not that I think Brettonnia gets any) - not very chivalric. Its also pretty boring just by itself, since it duplicates the effect of another building.
I also think we might want to take some of the buildings back to the old free xp on creation system.
I'm not that enamored of the training system, since the AI doesn't understand it.
I forget the old questing knight and grail knight stats, but how about 7/5+1holy and 8/6+2holy. These are basically their crusader units, after all.
Estalia:
Just let the inquisition pyre itself do the inquisitioning; thats not really a useful aura.
And they'll already get inquisitioning from their Inquisitor unit.
I'm not really sold, I don't think this adds anything over their inquisitor unit (see the religion thread).
If you do implement it, you should make it clear that it comes at fanaticism tech; and not at steam power (default tech for the steam tank).
Why not give them an improved Bank building, that also gives some extra gold income?
Skaven:
Easiest way to get them to not stack is to have them be the same civic category.
Otherwise looks good.
"Academy" doesn't sound right. Its not like the knights are sitting around taking classes and attending lectures. Why not make it Jousting Tilt, since IIRC we removed the joust building?
It also shouldn't effect ranged cavalry (not that I think Brettonnia gets any) - not very chivalric. Its also pretty boring just by itself, since it duplicates the effect of another building.
I also think we might want to take some of the buildings back to the old free xp on creation system.
I'm not that enamored of the training system, since the AI doesn't understand it.
I advise against this strongly. This is a huge early game economy advantage.
I forget the old questing knight and grail knight stats, but how about 7/5+1holy and 8/6+2holy. These are basically their crusader units, after all.
Estalia:
Can you make this higher spread only of state religion? We don't want it making foreign religions easier to spread.
Seems pretty weak. Changing the religious zeal promotion might help; maybe +10% attack strength, -10% withdraw chance.
Just let the inquisition pyre itself do the inquisitioning; thats not really a useful aura.
And they'll already get inquisitioning from their Inquisitor unit.
I'm not really sold, I don't think this adds anything over their inquisitor unit (see the religion thread).
If you do implement it, you should make it clear that it comes at fanaticism tech; and not at steam power (default tech for the steam tank).
Doesn't seem worth it, they already have a ton of buildable mercenary units. And quartermasters dont' have anythnig to do with hiring mercenaries; they are for outfitting your own normal army.
Why not give them an improved Bank building, that also gives some extra gold income?
Skaven:
I forget what vassalage does, we can re-evaluate civics some other time - maybe FF gives us extra civic hook options too, in terms of what we can do?
Easiest way to get them to not stack is to have them be the same civic category.
This name still seems a bit naff (unless its really canon?), we should keep thinking about this.
Weak for its cost, lets bump its strength up 1 more.
Actually they do get these, black skaven.
Otherwise looks good.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Orcs and goblins can probably be added.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301877&page=2
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301877&page=2
Ahriman
Tyrant
Dwarves:
I forget what its stats were, but it can be either a steamtank or a warchariot.
You need to add the Runearmor promotion (5% strength and 10% resistance to various) to the promotions list.
You need to add the Runed (or rune weapons) promotion to the promotion list; this is the placeholder that stops you from being able to imbue units with multiple runes.
We should make the Rune chances sum to 100%. So we get a list of Runes and assign probabilities to them so that 1 rune from the list is assigned to each unit affected.
Most of the runes look pretty good; lots of good ideas. The master runes are more powerful, so I agree that they should be less likely to occur.
Some comments on individuals:
I assume you're trying to convey the Dauntless trait (is that what its called?), but it would be really hard to convey the effect of this in the mouseover text to the player. Maybe drop it, or just change the might rune to a +5% strength bonus or a +10% vs melee units.
Also, cleaving sounds like the Alaric rune which ignores defensive bonuses (by which I assume you mean terrain?)
These runs should be at most as powerful as a single standard promotion.
Too strong. Also: MoralE!!! This is one of the all time things that bug me.
IIRC, FFH never really got Dispel magic to work.
I'd just make it some resistances.
How about unit is invisible in forests? Or hills?
And specify a radius for aura effects; radius 3.
Otherwise, looks nice! Good job.
I forget what its stats were, but it can be either a steamtank or a warchariot.
You need to add the Runearmor promotion (5% strength and 10% resistance to various) to the promotions list.
You need to add the Runed (or rune weapons) promotion to the promotion list; this is the placeholder that stops you from being able to imbue units with multiple runes.
We should make the Rune chances sum to 100%. So we get a list of Runes and assign probabilities to them so that 1 rune from the list is assigned to each unit affected.
Most of the runes look pretty good; lots of good ideas. The master runes are more powerful, so I agree that they should be less likely to occur.
Some comments on individuals:
I don't really like this one, a bit weird. I'd remove it, or have it give 1 first strike chance.
I assume you're trying to convey the Dauntless trait (is that what its called?), but it would be really hard to convey the effect of this in the mouseover text to the player. Maybe drop it, or just change the might rune to a +5% strength bonus or a +10% vs melee units.
Very powerful, this should probably be a major rune.
Also, cleaving sounds like the Alaric rune which ignores defensive bonuses (by which I assume you mean terrain?)
Assume you mean withdraw chance? 10% max.
These runs should be at most as powerful as a single standard promotion.
I'd keep the Adamant, remove the Gromril.
Too strong, and not really in flavor. How about either heal while moving, or immune to poison and disease?
I'd make it 10%.
Too strong. Also: MoralE!!! This is one of the all time things that bug me.
Potentially too strong (and reduces runtime if lots of units have this). I'd remove it.
IIRC, FFH never really got Dispel magic to work.
I'd just make it some resistances.
If we're making all the probabilities add up to 100%, its probably not a good idea to have some that only apply to particular units.
Too strong, particularly if you happened to get this on a really powerful unit!
How about unit is invisible in forests? Or hills?
How about 1 first strike chance, 5% withdraw chance?
Maybe.... but this only works if the unit dies (otherwise the attacking unit is dead and so didn't get the promotion), so its really a one-time thing.
How about lordship? Kingship isn't really a word.
And specify a radius for aura effects; radius 3.
Too strong, and can mess up promotion chains and all sorts of things. I'd remove this one.
Master rune; very powerful.
Otherwise, looks nice! Good job.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Cathay and Nippon look ok (though they'll need religious units).
Ogres done, though slightly underpowered.
I do really like how their larder will work; it could be hard to code (Dunewars mod is currently trying to get corporation effects on buildings), but I think it will give them an awesome playstyle; constantly trying to hunt down new food sources, which boost the food yield of their larders, which also boosts construction of all their ogre units.
Lots of good synergies.
Chaos dwarves are done.
So, all we're really lacking are hobgoblins, Ind, Amazons, Lizardmen.
And tomb kings need some more buildings.
Ogres done, though slightly underpowered.
I do really like how their larder will work; it could be hard to code (Dunewars mod is currently trying to get corporation effects on buildings), but I think it will give them an awesome playstyle; constantly trying to hunt down new food sources, which boost the food yield of their larders, which also boosts construction of all their ogre units.
Lots of good synergies.
Chaos dwarves are done.
So, all we're really lacking are hobgoblins, Ind, Amazons, Lizardmen.
And tomb kings need some more buildings.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Rocklikeafool said:
Ahriman said:
As you see, I just said screw it. I thought more and I’d rather keep fear I guess. It’s still a powerful unit, even with that -1Rocklikeafool said:
nerf.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Ok. The italicized part, that is taken care of by this:
Spoiler :
What that promotion does is to negate all magical damage. So, whatever damage it is, unholy, holy, fire, etc., it doesn't affect dragons. Part of the badassness of a dragon. So, in other words, we don't need the italicized part.
*Grumbles about the cruel designers who make him work and returns to the xml code*
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
I just realized! I knew something was missing! The Dark Elf and High Elf caster UUs are missing!
They should be
Dark Elf:
High Elf:
Ugh...that was throwing me off.
They should be
Dark Elf:
Spoiler :
High Elf:
Spoiler :
Ugh...that was throwing me off.
Ahriman
Tyrant
They're *there*, they're just floating in the background, since they're unchanged from the old design.
Intended stats IIRC:
Aspirant. Strength 3, 1 move, arcane class, starts with channeling 1, starts with Dark Magic 1.
Requires Dark magic tech, requires Dark Covenant wonder.
Sorceress. Strength 4. 1 move, arcane class, starts with channeling 2, starts with dark magic 2, requires education tech. Cannot be built, only comes from upgrading a level 4 aspirant.
High Sorceress. Strength 6. 1 move, arcane class, starts with channeling 3, starts with dark magic 3, requires arcane lore tech. Cannot be built, only comes from upgrading a level 6 sorceress.
I forget what the high elf wizard names in the old design were, but using yours they are:
Adept. Strength 3, 1 move, arcane class, starts with channeling 1, starts with High Magic 1.
Requires High magic tech, requires The White Tower wonder.
Mage. Strength 4. 1 move, arcane class, starts with channeling 2, starts with high magic 2, requires education tech. Cannot be built, only comes from upgrading a level 4 adept.
Archmage. Strength 6. 1 move, arcane class, starts with channeling 3, starts with high magic 3, requires arcane lore tech. Cannot be built, only comes from upgrading a level 6 mage.
I see no need for the lower attack or the hedgemagic, but I'm relatively indifferent.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I don't think this is the design intention.
Immune to magic is as in FFH: it gives immunity to *spells*, not immunity to all non-physical damage types. Red dragon has fire immunity, green dragon has poison immunity, etc, but thats only immunity to specific damage types.
Dragons in FFH (like Acheron) already have magic immunity; that promotion already exists.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
OH! You're talking about a new promotion. Ok. That makes sense. I was confused, thinking we were talking something different.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I *think* that immunity to magic was just tied into the Dragon promotion in FFH, but I forget, its been a while since I've played it.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Maybe we should put them in so people looking at the mod, checking it out, can see it. And for reference. (Cuz as you can tell, I was thrown off.
)I just put that in cuz I basically copied the Asrai units with different names and different magics. Personally, I think it'd be good for balance if all the Elven UUs were the same, except for the magic they cast and their respective names. In fact, I'd advocate all the arcane units having the same
and hedge magic. (Although hedge magic imho is pretty much useless, it does serve a purpose, which is obviously so Hedgewizards have some spells to start with.) Since even a difference of 1 is a deal in this mod, if we keep all the arcane units the same (varying only by each tier), it forces the focus upon the differences in magic.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Yes, we should, it was pure laziness really.
Well, I also think the WE mages should go back to strength 3, 4, and 6, I don't know why PL cut them.
Hedgemagic belongs on hedgewizards, not the more powerful elven mages. Its already pretty weak, but the elven mages start with their level 1 magic.
Whereas hedgewizards don't get anything except hedgemagic unless they're promoted into elementalists or college mages.
So I'd really prefer to leave hedgemagic off the elven mages.
Other wizards:
I forget all the specific names, you can pull those out of the old XML I'm sure.
So I will just refer to them by their magic types and slots: eg Lore of Fire Mage. Or Elemental Fire Archmage.
All are 1 movement, arcane class units.
But otherwise:
Hedgewizard.
Requires raw magic. Starts with channeling 1. Starts with hedgemagic 1.
Initiate: replaces hedgewizard.
Requires Elemental magic tech.
Strength 3. Starts with channeling 1.
Warlock. Replaces hedgewizard. Requires raw magic tech. Starts with channeling 1.
Elemental fire mage
Strength 4. Starts with channeling 2. Requires master of fire tech. Starts with elemental fire 1, elemental fire 2.
Can be built, or upgraded from initiate.
[and similarly for other elemental mages]
Elemental fire archmage.
Strength 6. Starts with channeling 3. Requires arcane mastery tech. Starts with elemental fire 3. Can only be upgraded from level 6 elemental fire mage.
[and similarly for elemental water, air, earth archmages]
Lore of Fire Mage [=Brightwizard]
Requires Lore of Fire College wonder. [=Bright college?]
Requires Lore of Fire tech.
Strength 4. Starts with channeling 2. Starts with Lore of fire magic 1, lore of fire magic 2 (=bright magic 1, bright magic 2).
Can be built, or upgraded from hedgewizard.
Lore of fire archmage [=Brightlord]
Requires Arcane Lore tech.
Can only be upgraded from level 6 Lore of Fire Mage.
Strength 6. Starts with channeling 3. Starts with Lore of Fire 3 [=bright magic 3].
And similarly for other Lore of X mages and archmages.
Chaos sorceror.
Requires corruption of chaos tech.
strength 4. Starts with channeling 1, channeling 2.
Can be built, or upgraded from warlock.
Exalted Chaos Sorceror
Requires chaos incursion tech.
Strength 6. Starts with channeling 3.
Cannot be built; can only be upgraded from level 6 chaos sorceror.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
That I can understand.
Well, crap. I just coded them as the WE mages' strengths. Um...I will change them back if someone insists. If no one cares, I'd prefer to leave them.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Yes. It is. And it subsequently is brought over to FF.
Btw, just so y'll know, I'm running on low sleep. Didn't sleep well the last few nights. So, you'll have to excuse any particularly stupid moments I have.
