Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

Ahriman · Sep 10, 2009

Well, crap. I just coded them as the WE mages' strengths. Um...I will change them back if someone insists. If no one cares, I'd prefer to leave them.

I'd prefer to change them. Many of the spells, like some of the fire spells, death spells and beast spells, are actually strength boosts that make the mages into combat units, so their base stats matter.
I'm happy to wait and consult with PL if you like.

rocklikeafool · Sep 10, 2009

Ahriman said:
I'm happy to wait and consult with PL if you like.

I guess I'd prefer that. Since he made the WE changes originally, I'd like to hear his reasons for that.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 11, 2009

i dont really mind what you do with the We mages

i just put those numbers there without any idea on the strengths of the other casters. if theyre balanced id say leave them that way. WE are far more defensive anyway.

EDIT: i have a lot more to talk about when i have the time but right now i have to go to work

deadliver · Sep 11, 2009

Psychic_Llamas said:
i dont really mind what you do with the We mages i just put those numbers there without any idea on the strengths of the other casters. if theyre balanced id say leave them that way. WE are far more defensive anyway.

EDIT: i have a lot more to talk about when i have the time but right now i have to go to work

smElves get a uu for the hedgewizard anyhow right? iirc from the old warhammer they have adepts or something?

rocklikeafool · Sep 11, 2009

deadliver said:
smElves get a uu for the hedgewizard anyhow right? iirc from the old warhammer they have adepts or something?

Correct. And, btw, I already added all the DElf, smElf, and Tree Buggerer mage units, all 3 tiers. Although, it appears I have to go back and edit the code to fix the nerf that P_L put in. I have to get em all back to 2, 4, & 6 :strength:

. :sigh:

But that won't happen til tomorrow. My vision's starting to blur, and I stopped being able to stand code 2 hours ago. Ugh...see everyone tomorrow, with what I hope will be the final revision of the Eleven units.

deadliver · Sep 11, 2009

rocklikeafool said:
Correct. And, btw, I already added all the DElf, smElf, and Tree Buggerer mage units, all 3 tiers. Although, it appears I have to go back and edit the code to fix the nerf that P_L put in. I have to get em all back to 2, 4, & 6. :sigh:

But that won't happen til tomorrow. My vision's starting to blur, and I stopped being able to stand code 2 hours ago. Ugh...see everyone tomorrow, with what I hope will be the final revision of the Eleven units.

Good work bro. I know it is distasteful to work on mage units but it has to be done (especially Tree Buggerer and Smelf work) . I'd rather take an Axe of Khorne to all the arcane xml work.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 11, 2009

I'd rather take an Axe of Khorne to all the arcane xml work.

id be happy to do it (arcane shinannygans) if no one else does

Ahriman · Sep 11, 2009

There is an awful lot of copy and paste that can be done, so hopefully it won't be too painful.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 11, 2009

now, i had a massive post to reply to all this before but it got deleted so ill just continue from here (i made the chages i felt appropriate that you mentioned before the runes.)

First off these runes are all based on cannon. the names are all copied directly from the book.

I assume you're trying to convey the Dauntless trait (is that what its called?), but it would be really hard to convey the effect of this in the mouseover text to the player. Maybe drop it, or just change the might rune to a +5% strength bonus or a +10% vs melee units.

no, the actual rune says " the wielder of this weapon may double his Strength when attacking creatures wit ha toughness greater than his own. the rune has no other effect..."
so the iBetterDefenderThanPercent tag is perfect for this. i have no idea what youre referingto with dauntless. and no its not difficult to convey that mouseover,i believe it has a good description already coded in.

Very powerful, this should probably be a major rune.
Also, cleaving sounds like the Alaric rune which ignores defensive bonuses (by which I assume you mean terrain?)

i changed it to +15% strength then.
and yes to Alaric.

Assume you mean withdraw chance? 10% max.
These runs should be at most as powerful as a single standard promotion.

and no i mean evasion. its different to withdrawl
its the chance an enemy hits your unit in combat, i only just figured this out.

the rest i changed.

i cbf replying propperly here lol. go see the runes list for changes. lol

Ahriman · Sep 11, 2009

now, i had a massive post to reply to all this before but it got deleted so ill just continue from here (i made the chages i felt appropriate that you mentioned before the runes.)

The only one I feel really strongly about is the Brettonnian worker/warrior thing. That would be pretty game-breaking.

First off these runes are all based on cannon. the names are all copied directly from the book.

I don't think I had any particular problems with the names, but just because they're canon doesn't mean we have to have every last one in the mod. We include the ones where the engine allows us to have a sensible effect, that isn't too strong and doesn't overlap with the effect of another one. And we want to capture the flavor of the runes, not necessarily identical effects.

no, the actual rune says " the wielder of this weapon may double his Strength when attacking creatures wit ha toughness greater than his own. the rune has no other effect..."
so the iBetterDefenderThanPercent tag is perfect for this. i have no idea what youre referingto with dauntless. and no its not difficult to convey that mouseover,i believe it has a good description already coded in.

Its too powerful then. Imagine; strength 8 dwarven unit with this rune vs strength 9 other unit, all of a sudden the dwarven unit is strength 16.
You can't hand out +100% strength bonuses without wrecking balance.
Either you have higher strength and so you're odds-on favorite to win.... or you're weaker than them and get a bonus, which makes you odds-on favorite to win. So your unit always wins fights.

Its also bizarre to reward you for being weaker or having taken damage.
Imagine you're strength 8 fighting a strength 7 opponent; you would actually be better off to suffer a 25% damage effect first, which takes you down to 6 strength, which then gets doubled to 12.

and no i mean evasion. its different to withdrawl
its the chance an enemy hits your unit in combat, i only just figured this out.

I have never seen this in civ - what other units have this. How does it work? Is it something that FF added? Does the combat odds calculator understand how it works?

the rest i changed.

Sorry, I didn't see any changes in here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8439142&postcount=3
Where should I be looking?

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 11, 2009

The only one I feel really strongly about is the Brettonnian worker/warrior thing. That would be pretty game-breaking.

yeh i removed that. it was just a thought

just because they're canon doesn't mean we have to have every last one in the mod.

i know

and its funny because thats only half of the ones i could have posted lol.

Its too powerful then. Imagine; strength 8 dwarven unit with this rune vs strength 9 other unit, all of a sudden the dwarven unit is strength 16.

lol you misread my post. that was in warhammer tabletop statistics. trust me when i say this tag of mine will be fine.

I have never seen this in civ

evasion is a behind the scenes mechainc i only recently found out about. its been there since BTS i think.

Does the combat odds calculator understand how it works?

yeh it does.

Sorry, I didn't see any changes in here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...42&postcount=3
Where should I be looking?

empire, bretonnia, tilea etc. i changed the dwarf runes you suggested as well.

edit: i just realised i forgot to save the dwarf rune changes. its done now lol.

Ahriman · Sep 11, 2009

trust me when i say this tag of mine will be fine.

Ok. If it seems weird in playtest then we can talk about it then.

evasion is a behind the scenes mechainc i only recently found out about. its been there since BTS i think.

Which units have it? Aircraft?
There is the aircraft evasion chance, which is the chance to avoid being intercepted.
It doesn't do anything on normal ground units.

I'll check the others.

Ahriman · Sep 11, 2009

Empire.

more than half the table top units werent even mentioned in your design Ahri.

If you have suggestions I'm happy to use them. Which units did you have in mind?

We're talking about magic tech blocking in the tech thread here:

empire, bretonnia, tilea etc

I didn't see any other changes here, they look fine.

Runes:

Master Rune of Stromni Redbeard: All units in stack get 'Morale' promotion.

Still think this is too strong; IIRC correctly the morale promotion is +10% city attack and something else? Having it just give morale to the unit would be fine, to the whole stack? Too much.
Or we can just weaken morale I guess, but that weakens the Empire Senior Captains too.

rocklikeafool · Sep 11, 2009

Psychic_Llamas said:
id be happy to do it (arcane shinannygans) if no one else does

I was planning to work on it next. If you wanna do it though, go ahead. There's plenty to do.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 11, 2009

Still think this is too strong; IIRC correctly the morale promotion is +10% city attack and something else? Having it just give morale to the unit would be fine, to the whole stack? Too much.
Or we can just weaken morale I guess, but that weakens the Empire Senior Captains too.

Morale has a chance to wear off each turn. so its not that powerful. its effectively the same as teh Senior Captain mechanic for the Empire.

I was planning to work on it next. If you wanna do it though, go ahead. There's plenty to do.

i really dont mind hey. first in first served right

rocklikeafool · Sep 11, 2009

I was planning to work on it next. If you wanna do it though, go ahead. There's plenty to do.

Click to expand...

i really dont mind hey. first in first served right

You don't mind doing it? Or you don't mind if I do it? I'm confused.

rocklikeafool · Sep 11, 2009

Psychic_Llamas said:
i dont really mind what you do with the We mages i just put those numbers there without any idea on the strengths of the other casters. if theyre balanced id say leave them that way. WE are far more defensive anyway.

I'll be changing the strengths back to what Ahri had then. And making all the other Arcane units the same strengths.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 12, 2009

You don't mind doing it? Or you don't mind if I do it? I'm confused.

whatever hey

you can if you like, but if you do just tell me what youre doing so i dont duplicate it.

Ahriman · Sep 12, 2009

Morale has a chance to wear off each turn. so its not that powerful. its effectively the same as teh Senior Captain mechanic for the Empire.

Senior captain, as I understood it, just randomly gives morale to the *unit*, not the whole stack.
If it gives it to the stack, we might need to reconsider it.
I'm fine for this rune to have the same effect as senior captain, but we might need to tweak that too.

rocklikeafool · Sep 12, 2009

Psychic_Llamas said:
whatever hey you can if you like, but if you do just tell me what youre doing so i dont duplicate it.

I coded the xml. I'll leave the spells and python up to you. I'd rather have a hot rod up my ass than do those parts.

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