More Civ, Less Fanatic

Jharii said:
Seriously, as an overall whole, people really need to chill out a bit here. Everyone wants a better Civ5 game.

Some people have differing and often completely opposite opinions on the current stage of the game. Great, I get that. But the flaming, baiting, and trolling has become excessive and really needs to stop. Every single one of us has the ability to demand more while displaying tact and patience with each other.

And believe me, I've got caught up in it a few times myself. For that, I apologize.

Let's try to tone down the personal attacks and emotional responses and practice some civility and maturity.
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I completely agree. Cheers to you for stepping up. Consider me /signed.

Unfortunately it took like 3 responses before this very thread went in the exact direction you're talking about. :rolleyes:

Let's put the CIVIL back in Civilization, here. The hatemongering on both sides is completely ridiculous. The best way we non-mods can combat it is by reporting it to the degree possible (to help mods out) and REFUSE TO ENGAGE blatant trolling, flamebaiting, and personal attacks. When someone goes barrelling off the road of civil discussion into inflammatory terms like "fanboys" or "haters," just ignore them from that point on. Responding just turns it into a flamewar.

I agree with Ashwind, too. The constant labelling and massive generalizations ("you just wanted Civ4.5" or "you're playing a dumbed-down version of Civ") just inflame the whole situation. Same with references to complaints as "whining" or insinuations that praising the game means you're stupid. If you can't respond civilly, just don't respond at all.
 
dexters said:
I like the sentiment here
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Agreed.

Another type of generalization does get to me...

... obviously... carries the connotation that someone is not intelligent enough to figure something out.
... is laughable ... carries the connotation that someone is a fool for liking some concept of the game.

The list goes on.

Using these types of (potentially) derogatory comments to describe aspects of the game or discussions is a masked way of insulting people. It invalidates their opinions and are condescending in tone. On top of that, that's all that is typically posted. No reasoning follows, and when it does, it carries the same tone.

It's situational, of course, but people know what they are doing when they post it, just as easily as you know what they are inferring when you read it. But it goes under the moderator radar because it is not a direct attack. I mean, "obviously" is not a derogatory word in and of itself, but it can carry a derogatory context when used in certain ways.

Basically, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone's opinion. But to add a layer of condescension is unnecessary.

"I don't like that aspect of the game, personally..."
"While I do not share that opinion..."

If it applies, offer reasoning why your opinion differs. You don't always need to, but maybe it just doesn't sit right with you for some reason, and simply saying that is good enough.

Eh. Who knows. Maybe I am too sensitive about this one. :)
 
I just wanted to reiterate that I have been guilty of all of this in the past... I'm not polishing my halo here.

Typically, when I did this, I would tend to go target the people that I felt were trolling, baiting, flaming and used the same tactics against them.

No longer.
 
Jharii said:
I just wanted to reiterate that I have been guilty of all of this in the past... I'm not polishing my halo here.

Typically, when I did this, I would tend to go target the people that I felt were trolling, baiting, flaming and used the same tactics against them.

No longer.
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Same here. I'm not innocent by any means. I hope none of my recent posts urging some more civility and condemning the hate-spewing tactics from both sides have appeared as if I put myself on a pedastal. I'm willing and able to recognize that I've been a part of the problem. (In fact, I think you and I have clashed in some of the other threads not too long ago.) Now I want to be part of the solution. I'm just plain sick and tired of all this contention.

Sadly, posts and threads like this tend to fall on deaf ears. In this very thread, people claim to agree, and then go directly on to flaming other people in the very same post. Beyond just controlling our own behavior and tone, what more can we do to try and get this message across to people?
 
Jharii said:
So exactly how does someone being one of the "old guard" and a fan of Civ5 justify getting insulted for liking the game? Or a fan of Civ5 justified in flaming a critic?
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You are "one-siding" the issue here. The same is valid for us, the "old guard" that stood the test of time for the series (until now, that is). We have all the right to express our opinion that this iteration is a piece of (you fill in what you want, we know what we mean) only targeted at some market definition that is not going to stay for long with the game and the series. Yet, when we express that, a rain of fanboy-like insults come down on us...

No-no. Either, or. We won't be silently watching what we think is the mediocrization of the series. And yes, we think that. And yes, we say it.

Now, start the insults.
 
vandyr said:
Again, read his post. Or do you want me to quote it for you?
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Yes. Quote it if you have to. Give me something more than "everything he said is great" with no reasoning. I read his post, and responded to every part of it. He didn't make any points, he just insulted everyone who was complaining about the game. Is it so much trouble to ask for "he made some great points, and this is why they're great points"?
 
ricardojahns said:
You are "one-siding" the issue here. The same is valid for us, the "old guard" that stood the test of time for the series (until now, that is). We have all the right to express our opinion that this iteration is a piece of (you fill in what you want, we know what we mean) only targeted at some market definition that is not going to stay for long with the game and the series. Yet, when we express that, a rain of fanboy-like insults come down on us...

No-no. Either, or. We won't be silently watching what we think is the mediocrization of the series. And yes, we think that. And yes, we say it.

Now, start the insults.
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Oh, you're such a patriot! I'm a long time Civ player myself, so I guess that makes me part of the "old guard" and I enjoy the game. Unlike many people, I don't have time to play marathon games for hours at a time due to real life, but when I am able to play, I thoroughly enjoy it, which, to me, is what its all about.
 
klokwerk said:
It's not perfect by any mean, but a lot better than vanilla Civ 4.

See it's posts like this that incite people to complain. While I respect your opinion it does not represent my feelings towards the game. If people that wanted to complain stayed in complaint threads and people who were happy stayed in the happy threads there would be no need for threads like these. Like a wise civ leader said, "You have to learn to respect our differences" :p

Firaxis doesn't care about kids crying on the forum because they know they account for 1% of their customers. The majority is happy and will never write on this boards anyway.

Civ sells millions and the biggest poll here account for 300 people, which means it's nothing at all compared to sales.

Patch will be there anyway, no need to make thousands of rant threads. Just trust Firaxis, they always helped.

Overblown rant threads are just annoying and people don't read them anyway, especially the devs.

Complainers certainly get more attention then those who do not. It's always the vocal minority that causes change and according to 2K Greg he reads posts on the problems with the game and reports them back to Firaxis.

Constructive feedback is appreciated though, but it's really rare on this board.

In my opinion, AI should be improved mostly on 3 points :
- better city defense
- naval invasions
- city optimizations (using maritime city states for example)

THAT is constructive criticism.

"Civ 5 is the worst thing happening to mankind" is useless though. Nobody reads that, especially not Firaxis, since you immediately understand the guy who wrote it is a complete idiot and you'll learn nothing useful.
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See it's posts like this that incite people to complain. While I respect your opinion it does not represent my feelings towards the game. If people that wanted to complain stayed in complaint threads and people who were happy stayed in the happy threads there would be no need for threads like these. Like a wise civ leader said, "You have to learn to respect our differences" :p

Who plays Civ vanilla anyway? I never hear anyone recommend that over getting BTS. BTS is the defacto standard for which Civ V should be based on. If it's not then the game should have a different name.

I'm not a kid crying on the forum, I'm a dissatisfied customer who represents more then 1% of the audience. This isn't the only major civ forum that unhappy purchasers complain on so the truth is none of us have any idea what the happy vrs unhappy % is.

Sales figures mean nothing. I'm sure many people like myself pre-ordered the game on blind faith only to discover the horror of their purchase upon playing. And as you said since you can't return it we have no return sales figures to base or counter sales figures with.

Trust Firaxis, that's the problem. 2K is in the driver's seat clearly now otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the consolized game we ended up with despite Firaxises promises of keeping the console version separate from the PC version.
 
ricardojahns said:
You are "one-siding" the issue here. The same is valid for us, the "old guard" that stood the test of time for the series (until now, that is). We have all the right to express our opinion that this iteration is a piece of (you fill in what you want, we know what we mean) only targeted at some market definition that is not going to stay for long with the game and the series. Yet, when we express that, a rain of fanboy-like insults come down on us...

No-no. Either, or. We won't be silently watching what we think is the mediocrization of the series. And yes, we think that. And yes, we say it.

Now, start the insults.
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I am by no means one-siding the argument. I merely listed some examples. Did you need me to list out every permutation of "old guard" vs. "new guard" and "Civ5 fan" and "Civ5 critic" and everything in between. And maybe you missed the part that you quoted yourself:

Or a fan of Civ5 justified in flaming a critic?
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If I was trying to skew the issue, as you claim, my initial post that opened this thread would have done so. Instead, it was a completely unbiased request to all people to display civility and respect.

No one is saying that you can't voice your opinions. Can't you do it without insulting others that have differing opinions than yours?
 
Well I can see the dechorum breaking down because someone chose to recycle the same old arguments spread across a hundred different threads, sprinkle it an 'us vs them' mentality with a liberal use of absolutist terms.

Leave that crap out of here.
 
Jharii said:
No one is saying that you can't voice your opinions. Can't you do it without insulting others that do like it?
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I fear this will lead to the Ad-hominem Singularity; someone will post an ad-hominem reply, followed by an ad-hominem attack for using an ad-hominem attack, then another post yelling at the previous two, inadvertently being another ad-hominem attack, forever.
 
Rystic said:
I fear this will lead to the Ad-hominem Singularity; someone will post an ad-hominem reply, followed by an ad-hominem attack for using an ad-hominem attack, then another post yelling at the previous two, inadvertently being another ad-hominem attack, forever.
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All you can do is your part. Don't take the bait. Don't reply.
 
Rystic said:
Yes. Quote it if you have to. Give me something more than "everything he said is great" with no reasoning. I read his post, and responded to every part of it. He didn't make any points, he just insulted everyone who was complaining about the game. Is it so much trouble to ask for "he made some great points, and this is why they're great points"?
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He made several points, you just can't see past the tone of his post.
 
ad homenim is an attack on the person not the argument in a discussion about something that isn't about the person at all.

a post complaining about other posters being jerks is by definition not an ad homenim as the premise of the post is that jerk complainers derail threads.


An ad homenim would be
'You and your kind like dumb down gameplay like the Wii crowd, true civ players want sophistication'

Not an ad homenim
'Moderator Action: above poster is derailing the thread. can we be more civilized?'

Not an ad homenim (but obviously poorly argued & ignoring moderator)
I still think so and so is right, Civ5 is garbage.
 
Jharii said:
To be honest, his points are irrelevant to this thread. The tone of his post is precisely why this thread was started.
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Without a doubt it has no place in this thread, however, it doesn't change the fact that I agree with everything he said, even if I don't agree with how he said it.
 
vandyr said:
Without a doubt it has no place in this thread, however, it doesn't change the fact that I agree with everything he said, even if I don't agree with how he said it.
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IMO, that's an opportunity to encourage more civility and constructive communication in this forum. If you agree with someone's points, you're already starting from a position that is less threatening, and can reply with something like "I get where you're coming from and have a similar perspective, but I don't think it's necessary to flame people who don't agree or imply that they're all idiots if they think otherwise."

That kind of remark is going to be a lot easier to receive than counter-flaming from someone who completely disagrees; those responses just escalate the conflict and the hating by contributing to it.
 
As someone who is disappointed in Civ5 (compared to Civ4 BTS) but who nevertheless enjoys playing it, I must say that there are some attitudes from "Civ5 haters" that are rather annoying to read through. Phrases like "Firaxis made a game that appeals to dumbed-down console kiddies" may not be a direct insult to any specific person, but is obviously derogatory and condescending to anybody who happens to like the game despite its flaws. I still recall the thread a week ago seriously musing on whether people who enjoy Civ5 must be pirates (as he figured that nobody who paid good money could possibly enjoy the game... and that it was "beyond reason" that anyone prefer Civ5 to Civ4).

No matter the stance or whether they agree with my opinion or not, I strongly dislike either side painting convenient pictures and generalizations of the "other side" with such broad brush strokes. Comments like "Civ5 is a game so dumbed-down, even my 8 year old kid could beat Prince by randomly clicking stuff" or "Civ5 is good if all you care about is shiny buttons and animations" is absolutely unnecessary and remarkably insulting to people who honestly like the game but cannot beat lower difficulty levels.

(Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm ONLY talking about a small-but-flamingly-vocal minority... this is certainly not an indictment of the forum posters here as a whole -- whether they're for or against Civ5.)
 
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