What gives better science, order or freedom

Uzael36 said:

How does order give a double boost right away?

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I think he talks about faster factories(doubled production).

Well we have 2 clans here:

Clan that can finish the game under 240 turns and the other that cannot. More the game goes on, more Freedom gain power. In shorter words, some of you arer comparing apples to oranges without knowing it

Of course Order is stronger if you can finish the game in a shorter life span than the average Civ Joe.

In mp games the mathematics are suddenly less important since that human players are pretty unpredictable. Freedom can have his niche and comparisons should go outside the math world.

Tabarnak said:

I think he talks about faster factories(doubled production).

Well we have 2 clans here:

Clan that can finish the game under 240 turns and the other that cannot. More the game goes on, more Freedom gain power. In shorter words, some of you arer comparing apples to oranges without knowing it

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My tests were sub 240 victories, and still found Freedom slightly in the lead. It's not simply a matter of time.

NOTE: Just so my message isn't distorted here. I'm not seeing Freedom is clearly better, only that they are very close and one is not "Clearly" better.

Uzael36 said:

NOTE: Just so my message isn't distorted here. I'm not seeing Freedom is clearly better, only that they are very close and one is not "Clearly" better.

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In mp games Autocracy can be better than Order or Freedom so...it's all a matter of perception and type of games.

But if it's purely based on maths then Order wins.

Here is what I propose. Play a game up to T130ish (shouldn't really change your strategy at that point). Don't plant academy.

Post the save here.

Play the game up until the end chosing either freedom or order and post your result. Let other people play the same game from your save chosing either freedom/order (they can chose the same) and they post their results.

Now we'll compare real datas instead of having people posting weak arguments or boasting. Because that conversation is going nowhere.

I'll happily play the game you post, maybe even twice with each to compare to your results because I've always been interested to really judge how much better order is. We're obviously not all as good as each other but it is still better than where this is going and if one is so clearly than the other results should show a pattern.

Acken said:

Here is what I propose. Play a game up to T130ish (shouldn't really change your strategy at that point). Don't plant academy.

Post the save here.

Play the game up until the end chosing either freedom or order and post your result. Let other people play the same game from your save chosing either freedom/order (they can chose the same) and they post their results.

Now we'll compare real datas instead of having people posting weak arguments or boasting. Because that conversation is going nowhere.

I'll happily play the game you post, maybe even twice with each to compare to your results because I've always been interested to really judge how much better order is. We're obviously not all as good as each other but it is still better than where this is going and if one is so clearly than the other results should show a pattern.

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Let's just do it from the next deity challenge then since more people of varying skills will be likely to participate. Just mention this in that thread

Emperor level
You'll need to use the 2 mods in my sig. That 4-use GP is a "present" from Izzy(why we are at war) so don't do any converting.

I'll take a look at that over the weekend.

edit: Bah, having to load mods sucks.

Uzael36 said:

The reason I find it hard to believe you tested it, is the theorycraft isn't quite what you think. 25% science isn't the boost people think it is.

If your city has a base 50 science, for example, with all the buildings and observatory, puts you at 125 science (no academies). Adding a factory takes you from 125 to 137.5 science. Adding 2 additional specialists specialists would have taken you from 125 to 137 science, which is quite easy to do, and every additional specialists past 2 puts in the lead. If you had 2 academies in that, that's another 25 science bonus for Freedom.

Now, that settler exploit sounds a little interesting, but I have to wonder, do you just stop building anything do use it? When would you use that exploit? I've never seen or heard of someone queuing up settlers to run a full group of specialists. I don't know how that would turn out, but you also prevent growth doing that. How do you deal with the loss of 15% science from unhappiness (Rationalisms first bonus)?

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With order I have never had a problem running my specialists. If you are, you aren't focussing enough on growth earlier. Once ideologies hit, I never have happiness problems. The specialist bonuses seem to provide very little that I do not otherwise have, and do little to catch up on the cheaper buildings and factory science bonus.

I don't use the settler exploit, but I imagine it could be to run all the specialists in the lesser cities to maximise science for a few turns before bulbing the great scientists? You can also work all the trade posts and non food, non production tiles during that time.

Planting academies biases the game towards Freedom.

Illianor123 said:

With order I have never had a problem running my specialists. If you are, you aren't focussing enough on growth earlier. Once ideologies hit, I never have happiness problems. The specialist bonuses seem to provide very little that I do not otherwise have, and do little to catch up on the cheaper buildings and factory science bonus.

I don't use the settler exploit, but I imagine it could be to run all the specialists in the lesser cities to maximise science for a few turns before bulbing the great scientists? You can also work all the trade posts and non food, non production tiles during that time.

Planting academies biases the game towards Freedom.

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The difference between Order and Freedom on specialists, is with Order, you only run specialists on the science buildings, with Freedom, you add several more. Those +2 science from the rationalism policy add a lot to your base science. Order adds 25% to your already 200-250% multiplier, so it's more of a 10-12% boost. Adding 4-16 base science to each city, by being able to run more specialists in other slots and doubling academy bonuses also results in similar increases.

Uzael36 said:

The difference between Order and Freedom on specialists, is with Order, you only run specialists on the science buildings, with Freedom, you add several more. Those +2 science from the rationalism policy add a lot to your base science. Order adds 25% to your already 200-250% multiplier, so it's more of a 10-12% boost. Adding 4-16 base science to each city, by being able to run more specialists in other slots and doubling academy bonuses also results in similar increases.

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I run the engineers and guilds, and sometimes the merchants. The engineers would normally be working hills buy this stage, but I value the science more. Order doesn't prevent me from running the same number of specialists, I just don't get as much food happiness back, but at this point the happiness doesn't matter, and my cities aren't going to grow much more, and the 1-2 pop I might be behind from not running the specialist by the end I make up for with the specialist science output. I only stop running the, if I think I'll produce a GP I don't want, but at the end, getting a GE is great for rushing a space ship part. By not planting the academy but saving it, I can then bulb it for heaps of science instead.

Illianor123 said:

I run the engineers and guilds, and sometimes the merchants. The engineers would normally be working hills buy this stage, but I value the science more. Order doesn't prevent me from running the same number of specialists, I just don't get as much food happiness back, but at this point the happiness doesn't matter, and my cities aren't going to grow much more, and the 1-2 pop I might be behind from not running the specialist by the end I make up for with the specialist science output. I only stop running the, if I think I'll produce a GP I don't want, but at the end, getting a GE is great for rushing a space ship part. By not planting the academy but saving it, I can then bulb it for heaps of science instead.

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I'm not sure how you say cities don't grow much more after you reach your ideology. I think most my cities grow at least 10 population between picking one and finishing the game, but I guess if you do run all your specialist slots, and forgo growth, then yeah, Freedom doesn't help much. I imagine if you played that way, you'd want an extra city to offset the growth.

Martin Alvito said:

Which neatly gets at the underlying math here. To simplify a bit (by ignoring the positive effects of growth on Order) for explanatory purposes, the way the policies map onto as a function of time is as follows:

Order: f(t) = k (a constant) with f'(t) = 0.
Freedom: g(t) = 0 at t=0, g'(t) > 0 for all t and g''(t) < 0 for all t.

It should be immediately apparent that the only ways that Freedom can win are if g(t) rapidly becomes greater than k (which it doesn't) or if t is large (which it isn't).

Note that I'm ignoring the effect of doubling the value of specialist buildings because the math on planting Great Scientists (other than Babylon's early one) always depended on unnerfed RAs. There is currently NO way that planting a couple of midgame Scientists to accelerate Public Schools and Labs will ever get you back the 7000+ you forego by not bulbing in the late game.



It's because the math is self-evident. Suppose my kid comes up to me and insists that 2+2 = 5. I'm going to argue to the death that 2+2 = 4, and if he persists in the error then I'm eventually going to become quite strident about it.

I get that politics these days yield the useful heuristic that strident argument = lie (thanks, Fox News), but there's no basis in logic for that heuristic and you can't carry it to other venues as a result.

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Could you point out where your formula includes for such factors as a 51-turn golden age (Standard Speed), or at minimum 51 Turns of Golden Age in a 70-turn span? (15-turn Natural, plus 3 12-turn GA from Great Artists?). A competent Freedom player organizes this rather easily.

You are adamant that you've demonstrated perfect math, but you haven't at all. Unless you plan on showing equations that are encompassing the many, many variables which arise when playing out two sets of policy trees with lots of variable gameplay mechanics and feedback loops.... well, your declarations are hollow. Not least because of your misplaced condescension.

Which is why certain articulate posters are encouraging an experimental philosophy rather than trade declarations on piece-meal mechanics.

Nick31 said:

Unless you plan on showing equations that are encompassing the many, many variables which arise when playing out two sets of policy trees with lots of variable gameplay mechanics and feedback loops....

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+1

Although I think order is better I prefer if someone will demonstrate this in practice than in theory doing some 'calculations'

Emperor Level Save
You'll need to use the 2 mods in my sig.



Right done a test and I can say that Order seems to have the edge. In the Freedom shot I captured 4 caps and needed 4 techs to complete the tree(excluding future tech). In the Order shot I played it peaceful and needed 3 techs to complete the tree, and that's with coal coming late. Once you unlock Iron curtain(and are sending then growth issues go away).

phillipwyllie said:

Right done a test and I can say that Order seems to have the edge. In the Freedom shot I captured 4 caps and needed 4 techs to complete the tree(excluding future tech). In the Order shot I played it peaceful and needed 3 techs to complete the tree, and that's with coal coming late.

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Well Philip I appreciate your work, but you played in both cases quite differently, so it is difficult to really compare both games.

Even for a domination run, I am find the half-price factories of Order to be more valuable than the XP and other buffs in Autocracy.

IronfighterXXX said:

Well Philip I appreciate your work, but you played in both cases quite differently, so it is difficult to really compare both games.

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Although I played the 2 games very differently the numbers are roughly the same. Here's yet another emperor save this time as Poland using the Trad/Lib mix. In the save I'm going for a CV so mercantilism hasn't been unlocked but Aesthetics has. This is a delayed Education game where I wanted to focus on getting Compass and Engineering for the trade routes. Also I needed Notre Dame.


In the Freedom pic I had already won by a CV but needed 7 techs to complete the tree. Growth was never a problem even with maximum specialists worked in all 4 cities right from when 'Universal Suffrage' was unlocked.
In the Order pic I had already won a CV but only needed 4 techs to complete the tree and that's with me generating a GM(which I couldn't avoid). I rush bough all my Factories and that gave an immediate 100 increase when I unlocked Worker's Faculties which was about a %25 increase at the time. Since I won the World's Fair I wanted to unlock 'Representation', 'Fine arts', and 'Flourishing of the arts' to increase my culture output thus delaying 'Iron Curtain'. Growth was a problem and so was as I had to decide on what specialists to work. When I unlocked 'Iron Curtain' growth issues went away and when I was able to build/rush buy Hospitals/Medical Labs all specialists in all cities were worked. Incidentally I was able to rush buy all Research Labs the moment I researched Plastics.

In the 2 games I played pretty much the same, except in the Oder game Poccatello didn't DOW me and he built Brandenburg Gate instead. As you can see the order pic shows me in a better position scientifically.

I thought the question was what was best for SV.

Order, because of the half-price factories, is better for SV than Freedom (the 25% is gravy) &#8212; and better than Autocracy for Dom, again because of half-price factories.

It is hard to compare freedom and order from a turn 130 save. If you want to make up for order giving 10% more science and getting a free scientist, you have to use the very strong bonii freedom gives per specialist, and they are limited per city. Ideally you want to conquer as many cities as your happiness allows mid game to compensate for the extra science order gives. Order can do this as well, but freedom gets much more out of it with the extra happiness/food/production. In freedom you only need 1 decent city to produce appollo project, statue of liberty and hubble, the rest of the cities can just be specialist farms.