Dune Wars 1.9.4 Patch Feedback

First things first. The new patch is a MAJOR step in the right direction. I am enjoying the game like I used to (before unit spam became an issue). The AI is teching way better than before. It is turn 205 and I am NOT the tech leader (still playing Emperor). I got beat to Great Houses even though I beelined it (by 2 turns). Before, it was shockingly easy to run away with tech early on (when it counts most). Now, you actually have to chose which tech path is most important (and even then you might not be the first to get to a key tech). The early game has improved significantly (challenge wise) and the gameplay is fun. From what I can tell, unit spam is now reasonable (and corresponds better with the number of cities an AI has - no more AI's with only 6 cities having 100+ units). I am very pleased with the new patch. :goodjob:

I did encounter a weird XP bug though. I bought 2 firefly bombers (offworld) and after a few rounds of combat, they ended up with 242,558+ XP. I never encountered this bug under 1.9.4 although I only built bomber units (no offworld) in the two games I played. It seems specific to homeworld bomber units (the other offworld units gained XP normally).

BTW, I forget what changes you want feedback on - too busy having fun. :)
 
BTW, I forget what changes you want feedback on - too busy having fun.

Anything that feels right or feels off ;)

I did encounter a weird XP bug though. I bought 2 firefly bombers (offworld) and after a few rounds of combat, they ended up with 242,558+ XP. I never encountered this bug under 1.9.4 although I only built bomber units (no offworld) in the two games I played. It seems specific to homeworld bomber units (the other offworld units gained XP normally).

I saw something similar and forgot about it while checking other things, only in my case they wouldn't recieve any xp while all other planes were working fine. I'm going to have dig to figure out where this is coming from as it's very odd.

It comes with something I forgot to add to the notes I just put up (I'll be adding it after I write this post :mischief:), I added the ability for air units to gain experience from combat when intercepted (where they can actually do small damage to the intercepting unit now, I'll go more into that in a minute) or when running a mission where they could be intercepted, based on the interception chance.

So if you bomb or airstrike a tile with a high interception chance from the units there and don't get intercepted, you get rewarded for the risk you took. If there was no risk or very low risk of interception though, you'll only get a very small amount of xp (0.2 I think is the minimum). As you noted it seems to work just fine for all aircraft except non-veteran homeworld aircraft (those starting with no experience), it's like the experience variable isn't initializing right or something wonky like that.

Anyway, the other change like I hinted above is that intercepting ground units, who mysteriously were immune to taking damage from the air units they were shooting at before :crazyeye:, are now likely to take light damage in the exchange, and just like before it prevents the air unit from hitting it's intended target or dealing collateral damage. So it's mostly a immersion thing.

It could still stand to have improvements in how the damage each is able to inflict on the other is calculated (it was done very simply before, ignoring strength of the units, only looking at interception rates and such), but it's an improvement for now. Now, time to go bug hunting :king:.
 
Some fantastic stuff here. Almost all of it looks great. Just a few things though:

Golden Ages slightly longer
Why? I worry about this a bit; its already possible to get lots of great people (to use for golden ages), and golden ages are more powerful than vanilla since every tile produces hammers.

Ducal Guard and Order of Agamemnon changes
Give defense% instead of combat% in addition to additional combat strength(they shouldn't make super offensive units)
I disagree with this; they should be superior all-round and offensive units.
The goal here is to model that the Atreides have a small group of super-elites, like those trained personally by Gurney Hallek and Duncan Idaho. These are excellent soldiers. They might be *called* "Ducal Guard" or something, but they aren't personal bodyguards, they just incredibly loyal highly trained soldiers. So I would revert this to regular combat strength. Defensive bonuses on melee units are pretty useless.

Some work things have come up that have meant I haven't done much testing; hopefully I will get some time tomorrow or next weekend.
 
Golden Ages slightly longer

This was a very minor change, from 10 to 12 turns on epic if I recall correctly. It felt like all other uses of great people were superior to the golden age option to me. I'm not particularly attached to it, but I feel it was a good move. At any rate, unless you go the Spice Orgy route(and still borderline even then), golden ages are still so short term of a thing that once it takes more than two great people to start it it's a generally poor usage of them.

Ducal Guard and Order of Agamemnon changes
Give defense% instead of combat% in addition to additional combat strength(they shouldn't make super offensive units)

Nothing to do with the name, just balance, I felt like they went a little too far with the additional strength. For the player, these promos will probably be reserved for the best units that already have other combat promotions, and additional strength has a synergy with any other +% combat modifiers. It's a thin line where it's better than typical promotions so you want to take it (it was too weak, particularly in the late game before as noted) but not a super promotion that makes offensive actions too easy, I wanted to tone it back just a bit.

My thinking was that the additional strength plus the other promotions you'd likely have/give the unit makes it good for offense in and of itself, while the defense bonus fits better in with the Atredies, I don't want them to have a particularly offenseheavy flavor to them (compared to other civs). I really thought of going 5% overall bonus plus 10% defense for Ducal Guard (was straight 15% combat bonus in 1.9.4), it's just messier in the text. Keeping the bonuses for each promotion as simple as possible makes it easier on new players learning the new promos. When you have multiple promos that have multiple effects, it starts taking some of the fun out of things and makes it more.. spread-sheety (it's a word, I swear :lol:)

Any good alternative suggestion I might just take you up on if it makes good sense, but the goal is superior troops, not super troops, and like I said, it shouldn't give the Atredies a much stronger offensive arm/feel than other teams.

Defensive bonuses on melee units are pretty useless.

Not when you are outnumbered in enemy territory, I've had plenty of situations where this is handy in and of itself, plus the AI Atredies will have plenty of opportunity to use it against you as well if you invade them. Again though I want to stress this isn't something I feel particularly strong about, I just felt it became too tempting for attack city type units over anything else and took away a bit from the 'flavor' of the Atredies as I saw it. I'd like to see a few of them being spent on reserve units holding down the homeland while the army is away. As it was before, like I said, it's too useful in attacking to keep any back for that defense role. Hope that makes sense.
 
This was a very minor change, from 10 to 12 turns on epic
Ok, seems harmless. But golden ages are more useful than vanilla, and great people are more available, so I don't see the need for the change. A golden age still has a *huge* boost on a large empire, and I mostly also use them for changing civics. Avoiding the anarchy alone is a very large benefit. 2 turns of anarchy avoided in an empire with hundreds of commerce and hammers, plus extra yield for every tile?
But I don't feel strongly on this one.

Nothing to do with the name, just balance, I felt like they went a little too far with the additional strength.
I disagree; they are supposed to feel powerful, that's why you get so few of them. My preference would be to keep them powerful, but push the Order later in the tech tree if needed.
These are supposed to be the guys leading the assault on the enemy cities, so they should be good at doing so.
If you're really worried, then make it a defense bonus and city attack bonus, rather than general strength bonus.

while the defense bonus fits better in with the Atredies, I don't want them to have a particularly offenseheavy flavor to them (compared to other civs)
I disagree that Atreides should be defensive. You can't win the game by being defensive. I don't think having a small number of good troops gives them an overall offensive-heavy flavor, I think it gives them an elite flavor, which is what we were trying to accomplish. Remember from Dune; the Atreides had a small number of troops that were as good as Sardaukar. That is what this is supposed to represent.

One of the big things that I am trying to achieve is flavor that is closer to the book than to the computer games (and movies). The Atreides aren't just generic paladin-look good guys. Their motives are much more complex, and often more cynical. Yes, they try to treat their people more fairly and put on displays for them.... in order to get the loyalty of their people. And they put out a lot of propaganda to make sure that everyone knows how good and fair and noble they are
They're perfectly willing to use force when called for. Remember that the Atreides here aren't just Leto I; they're also Alia and Leto II.

Not when you are outnumbered in enemy territory
If you're heavily outnumbered in enemy territory then you're doing it wrong, and the best stack defensive units are generally vehicles or specialists (AT, AA) not melee.

I've had plenty of situations where this is handy in and of itself
I don't think the ability should be situational. I think they should always be valuable.

plus the AI Atredies will have plenty of opportunity to use it against you as well if you invade them
I don't think there is much flavor to be gained from attacking an AI player that has a marginally harder to kill defensive unit. Most faction flavor comes from when the player is trying to use that faction's advantages to the best of their ability; flavor comes from being proactive, not reactive.

I'd like to see a few of them being spent on reserve units holding down the homeland while the army is away
This I think doesn't make sense flavorwise. These guys are the best of the best, the elites, the hand-picked trained guys. They're not reserve troops for garrison duties. They're on the front lines, leading the charge. Throughout history, this is how elite forces have been used.
 
Like all other patches I've released, this can be installed on top of a clean 1.9.1 install or any previously patched version of 1.9.1. It will break save games.
I'm assuming this can patch over 1.9.4?

Oh, also:
Political less overpowered, gives 2 free culture instead of 3
It's still one of the best traits to have even with this nerf in my experience, so I think this is a good thing
I think this is going to make Political underpowered, particularly with the +1 culture building you have added. 2 culture bonus is pretty weak beyond the early game. I really dislike civics that are only valuable in the early game.
In vanilla Civ, cities can be quite close together, so rapidly gaining a bit of extra territory in the early game can be quite valuable. But in Dune wars, cities are generally spaced much further apart, so being a bit quicker onto the 3rd ring is not really very valuable.
Not having to build a monument early for a new city isn't really that much of an advantage.
 
I can buy that argument, I'm updating the beta a little later today to update the air combat code (small update, won't break new save games). I'll switch the Atredies promos back when I do that.

I'm assuming this can patch over 1.9.4?

Yep

I think this is going to make Political underpowered, particularly with the +1 culture building you have added. 2 culture bonus is pretty weak beyond the early game. I really dislike civics that are only valuable in the early game.
In vanilla Civ, cities can be quite close together, so rapidly gaining a bit of extra territory in the early game can be quite valuable. But in Dune wars, cities are generally spaced much further apart, so being a bit quicker onto the 3rd ring is not really very valuable.
Not having to build a monument early for a new city isn't really that much of an advantage.

Expanding culture, as early as possible, and as much as possible, is much more powerful in DuneWars because of the spice economy. Being able to build a water cache or some other useful building, or get to building additional infantry before water stealers start harassing your borders instead of needing to build culture buildings immediately is a nice advantage when you need it. And that free culture just continues to pile up with all the other culture you can produce throughout the game that makes each border pop that much quicker, which brings in more spice fields that much quicker. It's really a big deal and still easily my favorite pick if I want to play a builder type game, and the fact that it speeds up library production is just gravy.
 
Ok, we can test and see.

I have seen a big problem though; I am playing a test game as Harkonnen, and I was able to utterly blitz my neighbor Ordos without losing a single unit. Why? Because they researched all kinds of economy techs early game, but didn't get defense tactics. So they were left trying to fight me with soldiers. On turn 101, I traded defense tactics to another civ (Imperial) who still hadn't researched it.

So I worry that your early game tech tinkering has focused too much on economy and not enough on military power. Defense tactics is a very important early game tech.
 
All standard settings.
Standard size map, 7 factions, Arrakis mapscript, Emperor difficulty, no tech brokering on, no other game options.
 
An old bug is still present; the cottage and solar farm improvements need to be buildable on polar sink terrain (they aren't).
Also, should polar terrain get the solar farm or turbine? Probably the former. The polar areas aren't intended to be high production.
 
An old bug is still present; the cottage and solar farm improvements need to be buildable on polar sink terrain (they aren't).
Also, should polar terrain get the solar farm or turbine? Probably the former. The polar areas aren't intended to be high production.

I've always been on the fence on this. I like that most of the polar region is un-improvable, my thinking being the real reason to go there isn't to build big or good cities there, but rather for the resources. So I've always liked nothing being build-able in the Polar sink, while you can still get something out of the polar, feels like a good balance to me there. I do agree that the solar farm is a better choice for polar than turbines.

There's also the question of terraforming in the polar region, I don't think it ever got a lot of thought when the polar sink was added. Right now Polar upgrades straight to grassland (no anchor grass needed first), Polar sink doesn't terraform, and if the city is conquered with terraformed Polar->Grassland, it goes to Rock, not back to polar. My personal opinion is that the polar region shouldn't terraform at all, or if it does, give it a different type than the grassland that shows up everywhere else, looks very odd and doesn't feel right. After all, it's the one place on Arrakis with enough defacto moisture to support grasslands without terraforming, it's just too damn cold for it, so terraforming really shouldn't effect it unless it's also supposed to warm the planet up as well.

Is there any indication in the books what effect terraforming Arrakis had on the polar regions that you (or anyone) recalls?

I've also started a game to watch how quickly they are going for defense tactics, as it should be a priority in every game to get better defenders early on for the AI. After the early game they do fine with this, but I've accounted for the early game scenario to 'nudge' them that way quicker.
 
I like that most of the polar region is un-improvable
This is a bug that was introduced by accident when the polar sink terrain type was introduced. It is not the design intention. The polar region is supposed to be water rich, but otherwise fairly resource poor.
If you can't built improvements there then any city there is too weak, especially given the inevitably large distance modifiers.

This should be a valuable zone that is contested. The main reason for introducing the polar sink terrain type was to increase the ease with which the polar zone could be contested by ground units. Before, the AI wouldn't really contest it well because they weren't good at moving between all the tiny islands.

There's also the question of terraforming in the polar region, I don't think it ever got a lot of thought when the polar sink was added.
I think its important that it terraforms; for a terraforming victory, you need as much land as possible, and the polar area is more water rich than elsewhere, and would be easiest to terraform. It is also logical that those seeking to terraform the the planet would try to control the polar region, which is a good source of water needed for the rest of the process.
From a fluff perspective, the polar ice is supposed to retreat.
Spoiler :
'It has been calculated with precision,' Stilgar whispered. 'We know to within a million decalitres how much we need. When we have it, we shall change the face of Arrakis.'
A hushed whisper of response lifted from the troop: 'Bi-lal kaifa.'
'We will trap the dunes beneath grass plantings,' Stilgar said, his voice growing stronger. 'We will tie the water into the soil with trees and undergrowth.'
'Bi-lal kaifa,' intoned the troop.
'Each year the polar ice retreats,' Stilgar said.
'Bi-lal kaifa,' they chanted.
'We will make a homeword of Arrakis - with melting lenses at the poles, with lakes in the temparate zones, and only the deep desert for the maker and his spice.'
'Bi-lal kaifa.'
'And no man ever again shall want for water. It shall be his for dipping from well or pond or lake or canal. It shall run down through the qanats to feed our plants. It shall be there for any man to take. It shall be his for holding out his hand.'
'Bi-lal kaifa.'
 
This is a bug that was introduced by accident when the polar sink terrain type was introduced. It is not the design intention. The polar region is supposed to be water rich, but otherwise fairly resource poor.

But at the same time, you now have twice as much polar 'area' since that space that was desert between islands of polar terrain is now a solid landmass of Polar and Polar sink, so with only the higher polar terrain developable, you end up 'balanced' roughly the same as before. Only without the movement headaches.

As far as being resource poor, you'll notice this isn't the case anymore. Deliverator changed this where it's quite common to be able to find ore, crystal, and diamonds in the polar region, which really goes with my thinking that from a gameplay perspective it should be a place fought over for it's resources (especially polar-ice since it's, obviously, the only place to get it), not so much as the best city sites in the world. Which brings me back to not wanting too many workable tiles around it.

It also has a nicer aesthetic look than a completely improvement covered polar region, I like the empty space there. All in all, while it might have been unintentional, I think it works and I vote to keep it. But I'd like to hear any other opinions than just ours if anyone has them too ;).

As far as terraforming, I think it'd be good to give some more thought on it. Seems if it's going to terraform, it ought to require a good bit of the terraforming goal have already been met before you start seeing 'warming' of the polar region. It's not fundamentally the same as terraforming the desert where it's a question of moisture. We could have a tipping point at say 2% terraforming where the conditions for the polar caps to warm up come into play, right now it just really hits a wall with me logically how it just magically turns to grassland, and easier than anywhere else for that matter.

The other question is what happens to the polar ice resources if the region turns to grassland? I really want to strike a balance between what's logical, what's thematic, and what works for gameplay and balance, and I'm not yet sure what that balance will look like.
 
Coming back to the quote:

We will make a homeword of Arrakis - with melting lenses at the poles, with lakes in the temparate zones, and only the deep desert for the maker and his spice.'

I don't want to dwell on this too much in the decision making, as like I said it needs to consider gameplay as much as lore, but it's still important. He still mentions melting lenses at the poles, even after the terraforming. If you consider Earth as an example where we have tropical, temperate, and polar areas, it's rather easy to imagine the terraforming being aimed at the temperate latitudes primarily while leaving the polar regions, well, primarily polar.

From a gameplay perspective, I think from personal experience the terraforming victory is one of the easier to achieve (assuming you don't get dog-piled of course), I don't think restricting the polar regions from terraforming would be too disruptive. By contrast, I think the polar regions should still be important as an additional water source for terraforming the rest of your territory. I'd like Reservoirs of Liet to take up a % of your water in each city(instead of a flat amount) and make the amount of water collected itself contribute to the terraforming chance, so that the amount of moisture you can collect becomes important, not just so that you can collect enough to support the reservoir building. It feels logical that collecting more water in each city would positively effect terraforming, and I'd even assumed this was possibly true playing the game before I ever looked at the code and learned it wasn't (just the number of buildings built actually effects the terraforming odds at present)
 
More feedback:
The unit maintenance and higher civics combined feel punitive; it is hard to keep the science slider very high at all while also having a decent army, even without High maintenance civics.
3-4 gold per unit per turn just feels unreasonable.

On the terraforming:
Spoiler :

But at the same time, you now have twice as much polar 'area' since that space that was desert between islands of polar terrain is now a solid landmass of Polar and Polar sink, so with only the higher polar terrain developable, you end up 'balanced' roughly the same as before.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Before, you could terraform some polar terrain, so it would count towards the terraforming victory condition. Now, you can't terraform any of it, and there are more land tiles (which I presume increases the number of tiles you have to terraform to win - though I am not certain these are counted). How is this "roughly balanced"?

As far as being resource poor, you'll notice this isn't the case anymore.
Yes, there a handful of resources, though not a ton. I'm fairly agnostic about whether these stay or not. They don't have luxury or health resources, which I think are the most important ones.

It also has a nicer aesthetic look than a completely improvement covered polar region, I like the empty space there.
By this argument, shouldn't we remove the ability to build any improvements on the map?
I also see no realism argument; sinks are supposed to be superior terrain, because they are protected from the wind. Why would we want them to be inferior? Why should it be possible to build improvements in the harsh rocky areas, but not in the cooler polar zone? Why should it be possible to build improvements at "sea level" where the winds are still very strong, but not in the protected sink?

But I'd like to hear any other opinions than just ours if anyone has them too
Agreed.

Seems if it's going to terraform, it ought to require a good bit of the terraforming goal have already been met before you start seeing 'warming' of the polar region.
The design intention is for terraforming in the polar region to be possible with the melting lens improvement.
I'd have no problem with having the polar terrain have a lower probability of terraforming, and for it taking longer to terraform than other areas. The main reason for anchor grass being skipped wasn't because we necessarily wanted it to terraform faster, it was because it isn't a desert zone, so anchor grass wouln't make much sense.

I think part of the problem is that we have different ideas of what the polar zone represents. To me, the ice cap is only the handful of tiles with the ice resource; the rest is just cool and pleasant, and mostly above freezing.

Whereas I think you are imagining the polar zone as like antarctica.

If you consider Earth as an example where we have tropical, temperate, and polar areas, it's rather easy to imagine the terraforming being aimed at the temperate latitudes primarily while leaving the polar regions, well, primarily polar.
This is not a good comparison IMO, because Arrakis is so much hotter than earth. Arrakis does not have tropical and temperate zones. It has incredibly hot desert, fairly hot desert near the north pole, and then the polar zone itself. For a comparison; on Arrakis, the natural climate of Greenland is like the Sahara on earth.
After terraforming, Arrakis will still not be like earth, it will remain hotter and the poles will continue to be the zones most fit for human settlement.

The other question is what happens to the polar ice resources if the region turns to grassland?
I think these should stay. As you say, they keep melting lenses on those polar ice resources for a long time. The ice caps are shrinking, but within the same tile. Eventually they would disappear, but beyond the timeline of the mod.

I think from personal experience the terraforming victory is one of the easier to achieve
This has not been the playtest feedback we have received. Other victory conditions require you to be the dominant player. Terraforming requires you to be the dominant player *and* then wait a long time for the terraforming to occur in your conquered territories.
Also, the dogpiling is part of the design intention for the terraforming victory.

I'd like Reservoirs of Liet to take up a % of your water in each city(instead of a flat amount)
I would oppose this, this can make them really not worth building, and can make the AI suffer really badly for building these. The current system is simple and works fine.
The design goal was very deliberate, to make the catchbasin and reservoir have an upfront investment (the hammer cost) and short term cost (from less water), but a long term gain (in water). The idea is that these should be valuable in themselves, not solely for achieving the terraforming victory. If you keep sucking out more and more water the more terraforming gets done (and remember that terraforming reduces hammer and gold income) then you can make a city with these buildings worse off even in the long run than one without.

One of the biggest problems with vanilla Civ4 culture victory was that culture had very little incremental value up to the point where you actually got the culture victory. We have tried to correct this in Dune Wars by making cultural expansion an economic boon from getting more spice. So lots of culture is valuable even without a cultural victory. We want a similar approach for terraforming.

and make the amount of water collected itself contribute to the terraforming chance
This seems nontransparent to the player and unnecessarily complicated.
I worry that you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist; I think simpler is better.

The hammer cost of building a Reservoir is the same in each city, I think the benefits should also be the same.
 
More feedback:
The unit maintenance and higher civics combined feel punitive; it is hard to keep the science slider very high at all while also having a decent army, even without High maintenance civics.
3-4 gold per unit per turn just feels unreasonable.

Alright, good feedback, I'll make some adjustments. Something else I've considered is giving Imperial Fealty a %population free units bonus on the order of what Trial by Combat has, we need a latter game civic to fill this void for warmongers (AI and Humans alike) and it currently doesn't have really useful bonuses in practice, I don't think I've ever taken it.

I won't have time to really look at the terraforming reply, I'll come back to it tomorrow when I have time. I appreciate you putting up with me, it's good to bounce ideas in these kinds of things between a few people.
 
I think the civics are doable, its the unit upkeep that is killing me.
However, we should do a balance pass over the civics to make sure that we think Low, Medium and High are really well-assigned to the right civics (so that more powerful civics have higher costs; this also means that things like Imperial Fealty can be advantageous purely through low civic cost).
 
I think the civics are doable, its the unit upkeep that is killing me.
However, we should do a balance pass over the civics to make sure that we think Low, Medium and High are really well-assigned to the right civics (so that more powerful civics have higher costs; this also means that things like Imperial Fealty can be advantageous purely through low civic cost).

Well, I've dialed the unit costs back a bit, and I'm trying cutting back inflation some too as an experiment, and left the civic costs be. I agree about looking over the civics, but I still would like to give fealty the free unit bonus, there's a real void for that in the late game and it makes a lot of sense for it, gives you some room to actually use the draft ability with the extra free units, what do you think on it?
 
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