Team Free Embassy

Uhm… well, I think my way works… but we could go with…
If Saber agrees to our terms, we'd split the gold with you, putting 75 gold into your pocket!

I kinda like that better anyway… I'll make the change above.
 
Just so no-one misses it:
My big post on why we should send this letter soon:

Spoiler :

I agree that it would be nice to keep more of the gold from the trade with Saber to ourselves – but that only leaves us 2 options… mislead (read: lie to) FREE about what we sold the tech for… or try to convince FREE that we deserve a 2:1 ratio of gold.

I think trying to convince FREE to agree to a 2:1 gold split is a very bad idea. Even if we were the ones to research Construction, it was done in the framework of trading beaker-for-beaker with FREE, making each tech belong to both of us… or put another way, they did ½ of the research on everything. I think that idea just spoils our relationship for a pretty small gain.

That said, I could be talked into leading FREE to believe that we're getting less gold from Saber than we are… by using a generous definition of the word "split" ("split: Verb, both parties get some of the whole, not necessarily in equal amounts" ) :D

I've adjusted that language below… see what you think :evil:

RE: Wonders, I agree that neither team is likely to build all 5 wonders on their side, but including them all makes it look better, imho, by making our grab for Cop and Newt a little bit less obvious.

RE: Trading Maps – I see what you're saying – but getting FREE's map will help us determine if there's an extra sea lane between us and BABE. Finding this out asap is of tremendous value in my opinion. More important than protecting against potential spying. I seriously doubt we'll be going to war with FREE before airplanes… or ever.
Also, I've added language to this letter making it clear that they can't trade our map without our approval. (by banning any future "world map" trades without our consent.)
That make you feel any better?

Re: Hurrying this – if we split this out into different letters, not only does it take longer, but FREE will give that much more scrutiny to each point. Given how FREE appears to be running their diplomacy (sloppy) I think there's real value in sending them a good burst of things, many of which they'll happily agree to, along with a few things that they might have a problem with if they had more time to think about it.

So far, you're the only holdout, but since you're the First Councilor, I really hope we can get your buy-in before anything is sent!

What do you say?

Version 1.4
Spoiler :

Dear FREE allies,

We are eager to welcome you into the middle ages! We await the hopefully good news of what new knowledge you'll bring to the table. Once we have word from you, we'll begin work on a MAAP II agreement – unless you beat us to it with your own draft of a MAAP for the Middle Ages!

We're sorry to hear about Azzaman333, and we send along our wishes for a speedy resolution of whatever hinders him. Until then, we look forward to working with Empiremaker.

While we wait to get started on the MAAP II, there are 4 points we'd like to cover…

1) The Statue of Zeus
First of all, we just want to send along our personal assurances that the Statue of Zeus was built for purely defensive reasons, to help safeguard us from a potential Great Lighthouse powered attack by the Mounted Warriors of BABE. Rest assured, in the hands of The Council, these Ancient Cavalry are the agents of peace.

2) Trading Maps
We like the idea of trading maps with you, and are eager to do this. The most attractive proposal to us is the one Azzaman333 suggested before he had to leave – and that's trading our Territory map for your World map – as that will be a more equal revelation of exploring… but still sets a great benchmark for mutual trust as we reveal our lands to each other.
Of course, along with this trade, we would want a mutual agreement that neither team will trade their world map to any other team without the other team's consent. (As that would reveal the other's homeland)


3) Splitting Wonders
You raise a very interesting idea about splitting the wonders. We see great value in this proposal, as it will save duplication of effort and save our alliance any potential trouble or hard feelings over wonder races. We think this agreement should cover every wonder in the Middle Ages, even ones that no-one is likely to build, just so that we're in agreement without chance of hard feelings if the situation changes.
You mentioned four wonders that you viewed as particularly valuable in the MA, and as a show of goodwill, we'd like to agree to put three of those four on your side.
Here's our suggested division of the MA wonders…

Team FREE
  • Sun Tzu
  • Smith's Trading
  • Magellan's Voyage
  • JS Bach's Cathedral
  • Shakespeare's Theatre

The Council
  • Leo's Workshop
  • Copernicus Observatory
  • Sistine Chapel
  • Newton's University
  • Knight's Templar

What do you think? We're certainly open to negotiation on this.



4) Selling Tech to Saber
As we mentioned before, Saber has showed an interest in trying to buy some knowledge since we have refused to trade with them. We think this is a good opportunity for both us for two reasons… #1) It would be a great tragedy if Saber is conquered by BABE, and it would become very hard for either of us to win. #2) We have a chance to make some gold for both us to help power our research in the early Middle Ages.

The first deal with Saber we'd like to propose is that we sell them Construction. As a part of this deal, we'd demand that Saber doesn't trade Construction to anyone else - or no deal.
If Saber agrees to our terms, we'd split the gold with you, putting 75 gold into your pocket!
(We know that Saber already knows other teams, though they have been coy about who – so we only have limited room to negotiate with them, or they'll likely go somewhere else to trade)
We hope you'll agree this is a good deal for both of us, and let us know if we can proceed.
(Please respond to this point in particular asap, as Saber likes to move quickly)

We look forward to hearing back from you!
To glory and bright future for both of us,

- General_W, speaking with the voice of the Council




Last count:

In favor of sending: 5 (A.T., Aigburth, Niklas, Paul#42, General_W)
Opposed: 1 (zyxy)
Unclear: 1 (cubsfan)

So I think I can still send this, but I'll give it another hour at least for continued feedback.
:salute:
 
No comments on this?

Since the time that (most) everyone voted their approval, I've adjusted the gold split with FREE to be 141:gold: for us, and just 75:gold: for FREE.
Are we all ok with that?

I've also added language preventing world map trades without consent – which I assume no-one has a problem with.

I really want to send this out soon so that we can get back to Saber… but I'm going to give this another 4 hours or so to make sure I'm obeying the will of The Council.
If we need to go back to version 1.3, that's ok. If we need to just chop this up into smaller letters ala zyxy's proposal, I guess that's ok also… but either way, we need to send something regarding the trade with Saber very soon.

If I don't hear more in the next 4 hours, then I'm just going to have to move ahead in the interest of being timely and send version 1.4
:blush: I hope that's ok!

:salute:
 
Ok then. That's 6 in favor, 1 opposed.
I’m going to send version 1.4 now.

But before I did… I found this e-mail from FREE!
Dear friends at The Council,

We have good news for you. The great families in our republic have
developed a new idea. They want control over our land, and make the
lower classes serfs. Our wisemen have tried to make sense of this new
idea. We were able to reject the idea of changing government, but
some of the ideas stuck, inproving our people's knowledge. (We
received Feudalism as our free tech) It will be sent to you this
turn.

Therefore we propose the following MAAP for the Middle Ages:
FREE The Council
Monotheism (1080) Invention (1320)
Theology (1200) Gunpowder (1440)
Education (1320) Chemistry (1800)
Astronomy (1680) Metallurgy (1920)
Banking (1560) Magnetism (2040)
Physics (1920) Military Tradition (1920)
Theory of Gravity (2040)

Total 10800 10440

This makes up for some of the imbalance from Polytheism, and the
difference can be renegotiated at that point. Other optional techs
can be added later.

Sincerely,

Empiremaker


So I actually sent this version, with a modified opening, called
Version 1.5
Dear FREE allies,

Welcome into the middle ages! We are thrilled to hear the good news of Feudalism… we were running short on ideas for repressing the masses ;).
We have begun reviewing your MAAP II proposal, and expect to have word back to you very soon.

(Also: we're sorry to hear about Azzaman333, and we send along our wishes for a speedy resolution of whatever hinders him. Until then, we look forward to working with Empiremaker.)

While we look over the MAAP II, there are 4 points we'd like to cover as soon as possible…

1) The Statue of Zeus
First of all, we just want to send along our personal assurances that the Statue of Zeus was built for purely defensive reasons, to help safeguard us from a potential Great Lighthouse powered attack by the Mounted Warriors of BABE. Rest assured, in the hands of The Council, these Ancient Cavalry are the agents of peace.

2) Trading Maps
We like the idea of trading maps with you, and are eager to do this. The most attractive proposal to us is the one Azzaman333 suggested before he had to leave – and that's trading our Territory map for your World map – as that will be a more equal revelation of exploring… but still sets a great benchmark for mutual trust as we reveal our lands to each other.
Of course, along with this trade, we would want a mutual agreement that neither team will trade their world map to any other team without the other team's consent. (As that would reveal the other's homeland)


3) Splitting Wonders
You raise a very interesting idea about splitting the wonders. We see great value in this proposal, as it will save duplication of effort and save our alliance any potential trouble or hard feelings over wonder races. We think this agreement should cover every wonder in the Middle Ages, even ones that no-one is likely to build, just so that we're in agreement without chance of hard feelings if the situation changes.
You mentioned four wonders that you viewed as particularly valuable in the MA, and as a show of goodwill, we'd like to agree to put three of those four on your side.
Here's our suggested division of the MA wonders…

Team FREE
  • Sun Tzu
  • Smith's Trading
  • Magellan's Voyage
  • JS Bach's Cathedral
  • Shakespeare's Theatre

The Council
  • Leo's Workshop
  • Copernicus Observatory
  • Sistine Chapel
  • Newton's University
  • Knight's Templar

What do you think? We're certainly open to negotiation on this.



4) Selling Tech to Saber
As we mentioned before, Saber has showed an interest in trying to buy some knowledge since we have refused to trade with them. We think this is a good opportunity for both us for two reasons… #1) It would be a great tragedy if Saber is conquered by BABE, and it would become very hard for either of us to win. #2) We have a chance to make some gold for both us to help power our research in the early Middle Ages.

The first deal with Saber we'd like to propose is that we sell them Construction. As a part of this deal, we'd demand that Saber doesn't trade Construction to anyone else - or no deal.
If Saber agrees to our terms, we'd split the gold with you, putting 75 gold into your pocket!
(We know that Saber already knows other teams, though they have been coy about who – so we only have limited room to negotiate with them, or they'll likely go somewhere else to trade)
We hope you'll agree this is a good deal for both of us, and let us know if we can proceed.
(Please respond to this point in particular asap, as Saber likes to move quickly)

We look forward to hearing back from you!
To glory and bright future for both of us,

- General_W, speaking with the voice of the Council
Sent to FREE gmail and to Empiremaker (rm5 AT Qwest DOT net)

Again, I hope we’re all ok with that!

Let the debates on FREE’s MAAP II proposal begin!
:salute:
 
That is good news about feudalism!

As for the MAAP II division, I agree with it in principle but here are so many unknowns it is difficult to foresee how it will actually work out. The division seems fair and workable if we research at a more or less equal rate. The thing that can prevent that is one of us being invaded by BABE. The only question for now that I have is about chivalry. Should we insert it into MAAP or should we at least make a contingency plan to include it should one of us become a BABE target? It might be worth out while to get chivalry ASAP and let BABE know we have knights.
 
I don't think knights will help us in the short run (in the long run, H'Watchas will be our tools). :nono:

They are way too expensive compared to MDI, especially if I compare the warriors we already have to the horses we'd have to build.

It would be nice of course if their MW can't retreat and our units can retreat after killing the final unit of a stack - but I guess that's really "nice to have".

So: No sidestep to Chivalry.

edit: On the tech plan:
We could swap Physics and Magnetism, that would be another 2x120 beakers to our favor to make up for Poly and we could call it a deal imo. :hmm:
Oops. I see a problem to get Physics (6480 beakers from here) in time before they are ready for Magnetism (6840)... And those 6480 already exclude our key tech Metallurgy... :nono:

I guess their plan is better for both... :thumbsup:

edit2: On the wonder sharing:
If they want to build KT, I'd love to swap it for Bach's. :p
Crusaders are certainly nice but KT lasts only ~7 techs = some 40 turn before it's obsolete, that's ~eight units for 300 shields. On average half an era too late. Of course, the worse it gets for us, the longer we'd benefit from them... :crazyeye:
 
I like the fact that we don't share our world map.
We cannot give the others a sniff of the map outline that Aigburth cracked, at least not yet.
 
1) and 4) look ok to me, although 4) is "dastardly" and could easily backfire...

ad 2) Aigburth's map is not part of our world map, but if we give away our TM then FREE will certainly find out.
But my biggest concern about the map trade is that it will spread info on our interior cities and land, and we cannot control the further spread of such info. And I don't believe in those additional sea lanes, and even less that FREE would have discovered them (if they exist).

ad 3) I would like Smith's on our side, it's the only commercial wonder apart from Colossus, until the UN. I would happily trade KT or even Leo's for it.

Horsemen are better value than knights in this stage IMO. We don't have many towns that can spit out 70 shields in reasonable time. Horses will kill MW's at reasonable odds probably.

The tech division is fine by me but still leaves an additional 360 beakers on our side, I think we should ask for 180 gold compensation for it, to be paid within a short time span. Carrying the difference over to the IA is no good idea IMO, the value of 360 beakers is significantly less by then.
 
Agree with zyxy on everything he posted (unless he changes it after this is posted :p ).

Now that SABER and BABE look slightly more peaceful, I'd like to keep our map knowledge a secret if still possible... :shifty:

I was surprised by the 75g. It's quite thin and if they accept it, they don't deserve more. :p
However I doubt that and if we have to explain it, it will look quite shabby... :rolleyes:
But okay, I guess my sloppy post led to this solution... :hammer2:

I'd also take instant money if we agree on that tech devision.
Otherwise we'd have to invent a modifier to adopt Poly's value to other eras. It's already underrated by carrying it to the Middle Ages. :old:
We could also offer them to build 3 catapults for us to capture :D (edit : Joke!)
 
I thought we weren't going to capture each others arty anymore, or is that just me and am I wrong about that?
 
Well, it worked! :D

This just in from FREE:
Dear Friends in The Council,

Just a brief note. Empiremaker is unavailable this weekend and asked me to repond.

We have no objections to the SABER trade.

We hope you get this before playing your Turn 95.

We'll get back to you on the other items, since they are not turn-sensitive.

Sincerely yours,

Art Parry
aka CommandoBob

Let FREEdom ring,
Let the white dove sing...
:dance:

Now we just have to figgure out the timing with Saber.

I'm going to take some time to more seriously look at FREE's proposed tech division later. More to come!
 
Well, we got away with it! Apparently FREE didn;t check the true cost of Construction...

Should I send Construction to SABER with the current save (turn 95)?
 
No.
I'm currently chatting with Dutchfire from Saber... they want to delay the swap to prevent making it cheaper for BABE.

I'll post that chat as soon as we're done - but in the meantime, just hang on to Construction.
:salute:
 
I propose sending this note to FREE updating them on world events…

Dear FREE allies,

Thanks for getting back to us so quickly, it's appreciated.

We're liking your MAAP II proposal so far, we're still just tinkering with some ideas to balance out the Polytheism thing. As you know, beakers become relatively less valuable as the game goes on, so we'd rather not wait till the Industrial Era to settle the books.

We have some scary news! The evil empire of BABE just showed up off our coast. Thankfully, it's just a boat with no units. Anyway, per our treaty, we're letting you know.

We've already had a chat with Saber, and they've agreed to not trade construction to anyone else. It turns out, they also know BABE, and so we're going to be delaying the transfer of Construction to them, to hopefully avoid lowering the cost for BABE. (As we're sure you'll agree, we want to delay BABE getting to the Middle Ages for as long as possible!) We will, of course, send you your share of the gold as soon as the transfer takes place.
Some really good news is that BABE appears to be four techs away from the Middle Ages… our cooperation has placed us far ahead of our rivals! :clap:

We'll be writing back soon with our response on the MAAP II trade, but we wanted to pass on this big news right away.

All the Best,
Your brothers in bluish,

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Feedback? Additions? Changes?
 
Should we just make a proposal for "settling the books"?

Out of courtesy we can mention that we've started on Invention and that we've descended into anarchy (or perhaps "festivities on reaching a new age" or something), but it doesn't really matter.

Apart from that, it looks very good to me.
 
Just so no-one misses it:
My big post on why we should send this letter soon:

Spoiler :

I agree that it would be nice to keep more of the gold from the trade with Saber to ourselves – but that only leaves us 2 options… mislead (read: lie to) FREE about what we sold the tech for… or try to convince FREE that we deserve a 2:1 ratio of gold.

I think trying to convince FREE to agree to a 2:1 gold split is a very bad idea. Even if we were the ones to research Construction, it was done in the framework of trading beaker-for-beaker with FREE, making each tech belong to both of us… or put another way, they did ½ of the research on everything. I think that idea just spoils our relationship for a pretty small gain.

That said, I could be talked into leading FREE to believe that we're getting less gold from Saber than we are… by using a generous definition of the word "split" ("split: Verb, both parties get some of the whole, not necessarily in equal amounts" ) :D

I've adjusted that language below… see what you think :evil:

RE: Wonders, I agree that neither team is likely to build all 5 wonders on their side, but including them all makes it look better, imho, by making our grab for Cop and Newt a little bit less obvious.

RE: Trading Maps – I see what you're saying – but getting FREE's map will help us determine if there's an extra sea lane between us and BABE. Finding this out asap is of tremendous value in my opinion. More important than protecting against potential spying. I seriously doubt we'll be going to war with FREE before airplanes… or ever.
Also, I've added language to this letter making it clear that they can't trade our map without our approval. (by banning any future "world map" trades without our consent.)
That make you feel any better?

Re: Hurrying this – if we split this out into different letters, not only does it take longer, but FREE will give that much more scrutiny to each point. Given how FREE appears to be running their diplomacy (sloppy) I think there's real value in sending them a good burst of things, many of which they'll happily agree to, along with a few things that they might have a problem with if they had more time to think about it.

So far, you're the only holdout, but since you're the First Councilor, I really hope we can get your buy-in before anything is sent!

What do you say?

Version 1.4
Spoiler :

Dear FREE allies,

We are eager to welcome you into the middle ages! We await the hopefully good news of what new knowledge you'll bring to the table. Once we have word from you, we'll begin work on a MAAP II agreement – unless you beat us to it with your own draft of a MAAP for the Middle Ages!

We're sorry to hear about Azzaman333, and we send along our wishes for a speedy resolution of whatever hinders him. Until then, we look forward to working with Empiremaker.

While we wait to get started on the MAAP II, there are 4 points we'd like to cover…

1) The Statue of Zeus
First of all, we just want to send along our personal assurances that the Statue of Zeus was built for purely defensive reasons, to help safeguard us from a potential Great Lighthouse powered attack by the Mounted Warriors of BABE. Rest assured, in the hands of The Council, these Ancient Cavalry are the agents of peace.

2) Trading Maps
We like the idea of trading maps with you, and are eager to do this. The most attractive proposal to us is the one Azzaman333 suggested before he had to leave – and that's trading our Territory map for your World map – as that will be a more equal revelation of exploring… but still sets a great benchmark for mutual trust as we reveal our lands to each other.
Of course, along with this trade, we would want a mutual agreement that neither team will trade their world map to any other team without the other team's consent. (As that would reveal the other's homeland)


3) Splitting Wonders
You raise a very interesting idea about splitting the wonders. We see great value in this proposal, as it will save duplication of effort and save our alliance any potential trouble or hard feelings over wonder races. We think this agreement should cover every wonder in the Middle Ages, even ones that no-one is likely to build, just so that we're in agreement without chance of hard feelings if the situation changes.
You mentioned four wonders that you viewed as particularly valuable in the MA, and as a show of goodwill, we'd like to agree to put three of those four on your side.
Here's our suggested division of the MA wonders…

Team FREE
  • Sun Tzu
  • Smith's Trading
  • Magellan's Voyage
  • JS Bach's Cathedral
  • Shakespeare's Theatre

The Council
  • Leo's Workshop
  • Copernicus Observatory
  • Sistine Chapel
  • Newton's University
  • Knight's Templar

What do you think? We're certainly open to negotiation on this.



4) Selling Tech to Saber
As we mentioned before, Saber has showed an interest in trying to buy some knowledge since we have refused to trade with them. We think this is a good opportunity for both us for two reasons… #1) It would be a great tragedy if Saber is conquered by BABE, and it would become very hard for either of us to win. #2) We have a chance to make some gold for both us to help power our research in the early Middle Ages.

The first deal with Saber we'd like to propose is that we sell them Construction. As a part of this deal, we'd demand that Saber doesn't trade Construction to anyone else - or no deal.
If Saber agrees to our terms, we'd split the gold with you, putting 75 gold into your pocket!
(We know that Saber already knows other teams, though they have been coy about who – so we only have limited room to negotiate with them, or they'll likely go somewhere else to trade)
We hope you'll agree this is a good deal for both of us, and let us know if we can proceed.
(Please respond to this point in particular asap, as Saber likes to move quickly)

We look forward to hearing back from you!
To glory and bright future for both of us,

- General_W, speaking with the voice of the Council




Last count:

In favor of sending: 5 (A.T., Aigburth, Niklas, Paul#42, General_W)
Opposed: 1 (zyxy)
Unclear: 1 (cubsfan)

So I think I can still send this, but I'll give it another hour at least for continued feedback.
:salute:

I am opposed and we should probaly give them a fairer share from now on.
 
cubsfan6506 said:
I am opposed...
Opposed to us getting more money? :crazyeye:

Care to elaborate on why? – Keep in mind that FREE is currently way ahead of us in score, land controlled, and has near double our population.

Imho, they owe us a few good deals… but I’ll be quiet and listen now :)
 
Should we just make a proposal for "settling the books"?

Do we have something to propose? What about their territory map? Think they'd give that up to balance things?

Should we tell them we're facing seven turns of anarchy?It would be nice to know when they'll be done with monotheism.
 
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