June 2015 Academy vs Bulbing Discussion

Erh you just pointed a major flaw in my spreadsheet. I forgot observatories :|

A capital with an observatory add around 1500 to the value of a sub T150 academy making academies really worth it up to ST. Note that observatories matter only if you can cumulate NC and observatory.

If you have to deviate from the normal path this mean your game will take longer, increasing the value of the academy both for accelerating the deviation and more turns working it.
The amount or how exactly it changes the results depend on how big of a deviation we're talking about. Like always there are a lot of things to assume in that kind of modelisation.
Note that we're talking about a deviation in a context where you still want to reach the end of the tree. If you need a quick tech like Dynamite, academies are usually a pretty poor idea in that context.

Acken said:

Note that observatories matter only if you can cumulate NC and observatory.

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Is this solely in the context of Academies? If so, I may have been unclear, if not a bit off-topic.

I used to beeline Education, ST, ideology, and Plastics. However, I often found myself backed up with production. So I started to deviate, picking up Factories along the way for example. I felt the ride was smoother. And now I read you guys talking as if I was doing it the "right way" before. So I'm curious if/when you decided that it's worth it to deviate from that path to pick up Astronomy. I think what most caught my eye was mentioning science path when going for CV.

I'm going to test in my games, but I think part of my problem was that I wasn't normally bulbing to get ST or Plastics sooner in general. I've only once bulbed Plastics and that was specifically because I was going for CV and felt I didn't have to completely min/max my bulbs.

I used to beeline Education, ST, ideology, and Plastics. However, I often found myself backed up with production. So I started to deviate, picking up Factories along the way for example. I felt the ride was smoother. And now I read you guys talking as if I was doing it the "right way" before. So I'm curious if/when you decided that it's worth it to deviate from that path to pick up Astronomy.

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I'm not a guru / deity, but from what I understand for very quick finishes it is paramount to make sure that your buildings keep up with the (very quick) pace of technological progress. This generally means that you need to buy a lot of buildings, especially the science buildings and preferably on the turn that you get the tech. That means getting a lot of gold, selling all resources (including selling strategics one at a time) and not wasting it on other things. The tech tree for quick SV is fairly well understood, what makes the top players different is that they manage to somehow have all pieces fit into place...

@Acken, from your balance mod: "Great Scientists discovery value is now fixed on creation"

I completely support this and it makes for much more interesting choices and immersion (it is just weird to have 10 great people chilling out until 5 turns before finish...), but I guess that really changes the way SV's are played, including making this whole discussion moot (which was probably the intention )

Dushku said:

Is this solely in the context of Academies? If so, I may have been unclear, if not a bit off-topic.

I used to beeline Education, ST, ideology, and Plastics. However, I often found myself backed up with production. So I started to deviate, picking up Factories along the way for example. I felt the ride was smoother. And now I read you guys talking as if I was doing it the "right way" before. So I'm curious if/when you decided that it's worth it to deviate from that path to pick up Astronomy. I think what most caught my eye was mentioning science path when going for CV.

I'm going to test in my games, but I think part of my problem was that I wasn't normally bulbing to get ST or Plastics sooner in general. I've only once bulbed Plastics and that was specifically because I was going for CV and felt I didn't have to completely min/max my bulbs.

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Most "speedrun" games will involve simply buying schools and laboratories. If you are using a classical tradition game this shouldn't be too hard with a combination of market/banks, selling stuff and taking loans. This is why many here in the discussion don't really care for factories in a SV. You can even sometimes get Mercantilism before schools.

My comment was purely for academies yes. Observatories matter only if they raise the %modifier, so only if you can cumulate it with the national college.

vanatteveldt said:

@Acken, from your balance mod: "Great Scientists discovery value is now fixed on creation"

I completely support this and it makes for much more interesting choices and immersion (it is just weird to have 10 great people chilling out until 5 turns before finish...), but I guess that really changes the way SV's are played, including making this whole discussion moot (which was probably the intention )

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Well SV is changed in more fundamental ways than that with my mod Not dying on Deity is one of them But you're right, with fixed bulbing, the discussion is very different. I would appreciate mod discussion to be in the mod thread though

claudiupb said:

Also assumed Rationalism opener in T140s (this is does not affect the calculation by that much). And T180 Free Thought.

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I didn't catch this before. Is this presuming Rationalism -> Humanism -> Free Thought? Isn't it better to grab Secularism first?

No he's not assuming that afaik. Secularism has no impact on the discussion, only free thought timing will change the value of an academy. T180 is pretty late though.

I assumed Rationalism Opener -> Secularism -> Humanism -> Free Thought. The turn timers are certainty off, since I'm not a fast player, and don't have a good knowledge on when each milestone is achieved on fast wins. I also added a couple of turns on top of my approximation, to get a fell of how the academy is worth it for even slower plays. Acken's spreadsheet lets you enter your own turn timers for each milestone which is super useful.

I also have to note that all my calculations are made under the assumption that a Science Win is considered. This basically simplifies the bulbing variables (you maybe bulb ST and/or Plastics, and you keep the rest of the GS for late game bulb, while for a Dom Win for example you may want to bulb for fast key military techs like Dynamite)

So is the assumption Tradition -> Rationalism with NO filler policies? Sorry, I can't wrap my head around 3 policies in 40 turns. I've had games where I keep my culture low so I can go Tradition -> Rationalism, and start working guilds and gifting CSs once Rationalism is open and 40 turns for 3 policies still seems unrealistic to me. That doesn't mean it is, but I'd like to understand better since I'm constantly striving to improve my game.

You usually get at least 1 filler policy, but what you choose between tradition and rationalism is not relevant towards the bulbing vs planting debate.

I have never done this, so I don't know how reliable it is, but it may be possible to get Oracle in renaissance if you beeline renaissance (so I guess acoustics right after Education). The key is to ally a lot of cultural City States (actually all of them if possible) +12 culture for each city state (or +26 from the industrial era) is A LOT. Your capital may produce something like 28-30 without any bonuses from religion, if working all guilds, so +12 (26 once you reach ST) is significant, since all other cities probably produce +2.

Also you can bulb your first GW for the Rationalism Opener but I don't know if this is optimal (probably situational).

Dushku said:

So is the assumption Tradition -> Rationalism with NO filler policies? Sorry, I can't wrap my head around 3 policies in 40 turns. I've had games where I keep my culture low so I can go Tradition -> Rationalism, and start working guilds and gifting CSs once Rationalism is open and 40 turns for 3 policies still seems unrealistic to me. That doesn't mean it is, but I'd like to understand better since I'm constantly striving to improve my game.

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Some will use great writers to accelerate that. 2 are worth 16 turns. So getting 3 in 40+16 doesn't sound that big.

But ultimately the person you quoted made some broad assumption. If you want to run the maths with your own timing try the spreadsheet I think.

I am interested in winning, I don't care about score or how soon I win, and I do not have the ability to reload games - with this criteria I would like some heuristics ("rules-of-thumb") for planting. It seems erring on the side of planting vs bulbing could mean a higher win rate but lower scores/times when you win if you don't have an isolated start. Also... there is always the risk of a clever human finding a way to kill a scientist. Like... rush bombers and BOOM there goes a couple scientists... or rarer, a civ like Inca/Denmark have a military CS ally that gives them a special mounted unit with extra movement you didn't expect... oops... playing vs smart humans adds so many more levels of consideration.

Slight benefits of planting on a hill (these benefits are stronger for MP vs SP) - you might get immediate hook-up for a later resource like coal, you make faster settlers, and it gives you more time to kill the barb (or enemy unit ) before it pillages the academy. However, this is not implying that I recommend planting on hills.