[MOD] Eusebius World Religions

Sounds like Europe to me ^_^

But perhaps the mediterranean made it much easier to keep an empire on short leash, like the romans did. Their biggest headaches came from being landlocked with the cultures from the north. It was much easier to keep the mediterranean states under control. why, I believe that there was a roman emperor who decided to rid the seas of pirates. And he did!
 
Immacolata said:
Just a question here. What about the Indians? Wouldn't hinduism and buddhism represent a fourth worldview?

To be Honest, I'd have that as the Eastern View. It's certainly been more influential in eastern philosophies. Directly, indirectly or otherwise!
 
Ranbir said:
To be Honest, I'd have that as the Eastern View. It's certainly been more influential in eastern philosophies. Directly, indirectly or otherwise!

Well the "Eastern View "mostly exists in the minds of the occidental world. There is a lot of difference between India and China, enough to warrant a little more nuanced view on that part of the world, at least.

Modern confucian societies seems to share one work ethic, whereas the indians are still dominated by the five classes created by the caste system. Which is as far as you can get from confucianist obey your master and you too, shall rise and become a master of your own.

Not speaking about this mod though, since 3 world views seems fine for gameplay purposes. Not sure a 4th would really add to the enjoyment.
 
Well then India's will have to provide some influence to West. But tbh, it's all up to Eus' discretion.
 
Ranbir said:
Well then India's will have to provide some influence to West. But tbh, it's all up to Eus' discretion.

Basically, I would need someone who really understands the distinctions between the two to give lay out the specifics of how they should be different and what this new worldview would look like.

I see difficulties with making Hinduism a worldview beause it never spread out of Inida.

I see difficulties with making Buddhism a worldview because it spread into Chinese/East Asian areas.

So what would we call this worldview and how would you define it?

Eusebius
 
Vedism? Brahmanism? Induism? ^_^ But really, 3 worldviews isn't that good enough for a game?
 
Ah I was under the impressiong the world view wasn't directly from religion. It seems only you've described the Eastern one from Confy(already a foundable religion) While the western and american are not directly from any foundable.

Anyway it seems to me that these are somewhat midly philosophical schools of thought? (How the world was percieved etc) In that sense, China would share more commonality in the basis due to India's spread (across nearly all asia inc japan(albeit small things)). While specific religion didn't spread out, a lot of ideas etc did. And these ideas outside India helped spur new things.

Like I said, I'm not really picky tbh. Maybe I just got thrown that Eastern repped by Conf, already a selectable 'religion' and no way near as old as the other two thoughts.
 
No the world view is more a sort of "meta-religion", an overarching structure of common ideas and notions that means more than mere religion.

Still, religion and all that, the world has always been crafted mostly by blood and iron. If there is money to be made, most religions and world views find themselves able to work out the kinks for mutual profits :)
 
Eusebius said:
Basically, I would need someone who really understands the distinctions between the two to give lay out the specifics of how they should be different and what this new worldview would look like.

I see difficulties with making Hinduism a worldview beause it never spread out of Inida.

I see difficulties with making Buddhism a worldview because it spread into Chinese/East Asian areas.

So what would we call this worldview and how would you define it?

Eusebius

Indic's and Confucian's world view are really different to the core. while indic is otherworld and spiritual, the Confucian seem thisworld and materialism

Chinese's world view is this world and the thing that right is the thing that good for this world (not next world or otherworld). Heaven in chinese mind isn't the form of this world but heaven is the better reflection of this world. Chinese is very pragmaticism, religion in china mostly not offer reward in other world but focus on what good for this world and less likely to claim to the supernateral( as confucism claim heaven but not believe in supernatural and Taoism claim The Way but for this world use as for immortality). This made Abrahamic religion see chinese people as faithless people who switch their faith when its serve their interest. So most religion that prosper in china is offer something to this world, both material or spiritual. Chinese is quite humanism, Their ancest legend even have gods but serve less function compare other. Their cultural hero that is human serve most of function. They claim that their premodial land was once uninhibitable is now inhibitable by industrous of men to tame the flood. So they are humanism to the core and recently this idea develop in to collective humanism due to communist influence

In contrast Indic's world view is spiritual and other world(especially next world). This thing explain by history of caste system. Due to the system of human function from Veda is too rigid to serve purpose of upper caste especially Bhramin that on the top made it unable to change people status and crash the opposer with ironfist. As fear for the lower caste to uprise so bhramin promise of the loyal one with reward in next world. Even with this promise, the suffering still exist. The suffering made some people disillusion but with lack of factor to ease it materially so many of these people flee into forest and searching for meaning of life and how to free from suffering....(continue later...)
 
One big issue here: The distinction between religion and philosophy is proper to the West. This creates all kinds of problems, since the "world view" or "Culture" is not divisible into religion and philosophy, which are categories that Civilization 4 seems to support. Is Confucianism a religion or a philosophy? The whole question is just intellectual masturbation to which there is no ready answer. I've been trying to advocate on this board to just throw in the Chinese "world view" which as Immacolta pointed out is a "meta-religion" of sorts as a decent approximation of Chinese beliefs rather than drive ourselves crazy trying to puzzle out questions even the experts in the field of Chinese "religion" can't answer.

The Chinese Humanism versus Indian Mysticism dichotomy is to some degree true, but to some degree also represents ideological construction on the part of Enlightenment philosophers (who wanted to portray China as a rationalist utopia versus the religious war torn Europe of their day), 19th and 20th century religious figures (Who wanted to portray India as spiritually superior to the West), British Colonialists (Who wanted to portray Indians as incapable of Civilization) Qing dynasty officials (who wanted to portray Confucianism in a positive light that would serve their own interests versus Daoist popular religion, playing into the assumptions of western visitors) and others. In fact Confucians could be quite mystical, and Pure Land Buddhism certainly had its fair share of adherents in China, promising salvation in the Western Paradise of the Buddha. At the same time there were in fact hard headed India logicians and even materialists. While the generalizations are pretty valid, don't think that they were without exception.
 
I just watched terry jones last night in Ancient Invention series where he tracked down the number 1. According to him, the indians invented the modern numbers, including the zero. Why? So they could answer numerically outrageous questions such as how far a God walks in one week when he traverses at least 10 kilomters per blink of his eye. On the other hand, the romans used numbers for counting plunder and body piles after their conquests.

So the cultures of the indian subcontinent seemed to be content with warring amongst each other and ponder impossible questions. Perhaps we would have been doing that, too, in Europe if not the romans had gotten greedy ^_^.
 
Suppanut said:
Indic's and Confucian's world view are really different to the core. while indic is otherworld and spiritual, the Confucian seem thisworld and materialism

Chinese's world view is this world and the thing that right is the thing that good for this world (not next world or otherworld). Heaven in chinese mind isn't the form of this world but heaven is the better reflection of this world. Chinese is very pragmaticism, religion in china mostly not offer reward in other world but focus on what good for this world and less likely to claim to the supernateral( as confucism claim heaven but not believe in supernatural and Taoism claim The Way but for this world use as for immortality). This made Abrahamic religion see chinese people as faithless people who switch their faith when its serve their interest. So most religion that prosper in china is offer something to this world, both material or spiritual. Chinese is quite humanism, Their ancest legend even have gods but serve less function compare other. Their cultural hero that is human serve most of function. They claim that their premodial land was once uninhibitable is now inhibitable by industrous of men to tame the flood. So they are humanism to the core and recently this idea develop in to collective humanism due to communist influence

In contrast Indic's world view is spiritual and other world(especially next world). This thing explain by history of caste system. Due to the system of human function from Veda is too rigid to serve purpose of upper caste especially Bhramin that on the top made it unable to change people status and crash the opposer with ironfist. As fear for the lower caste to uprise so bhramin promise of the loyal one with reward in next world. Even with this promise, the suffering still exist. The suffering made some people disillusion but with lack of factor to ease it materially so many of these people flee into forest and searching for meaning of life and how to free from suffering....(continue later...)

Chinese is quite pragmatic in sense of religion.The Confucians didn't believe in supernatural but they still use rituals as tool for social harmony. Taoist even have mysticism but channal to nature instead of higher being. Every religion that can grow in china their concept will become less abstract and more concreate as concept of ultimate goal in mahayana buddhism in fareast is less abstract than in india.

let's continue india.
The forest tradition is start with Upanisad with is individual liberation of self from material world and start tradition of abstract god of Bhrama.From now on the indian philosophy an religion was divert from other branch of Indo-european as they growth into overabstract sense. This is start of Upanisad age. All religions of india in this age got their influence from Upanisad and forest tradition(as in buddhism and Jainism for self liberation and abstract concept of ulitmate truth).This trend start action of social liberation in some degree and this began to threat to power of bhramin in society. So Bhramin fight back by incorperate upanisad in to their canon, create gods that more powerful and more benevolent than in Vedas such as Vishnu and Shiva, foster absolute monarchy by let king has more right in society/religion/moral and develop knowledge about politic, development, economic and war to support them and propaganda against other religion(such as they tell that buddha is an avatar of Vishnu to divert people from the truth path),etc.. With concept that easier for people to understand and easier for state to exploit, bhramin regain their foothold in society and slowly destroy upanisad age's religion. Weak point of Upanisad's religions is too abstract for common people to understand it clearly, with this is made gap of tradition between elite who understand concept and commoner who use materialize faith base wider but allow their civilization to develop abstract knowledge such as concept of zero in math and stand for self-liberation while while commoner still beg for savior, stick to the code of caste that forbid them to save themselves.This really different from confucian point of view that to beg for savior is just to be parasite that leech the society and even fareast have abstract in some degree but still concreate enough for most of commoner to understand.Indian civilization can stand againt invader mostly by their inclusive and ability to assemmulate the newcomer but this thing cannot be use with Islam. This threat society and traditional religion to began dichotomize people in to hindu(but still inclusive) and non-hindu(start by muslim). But some concept of self-liberation and abstract idea slowy influence muslim people in india and this is why most of muslim with sufi tradition are in india. Hinduism have work ethics in their religion, root in book of Bhakavagita that tell the hindu to devout, dutiful and faithful in their caste and done the best in (caste) work and duty.

This CONTRADICTION of of the elite mysticism, abstractism & self-liberation and commoner conservative, ritualism, devout, faithful, docile and be the hopless who wait for other to be savior was influence the character of indian civilization.

Oh, It's really fallacy to think that hindu and bhraminism never spread outside india. It's really spread to south-east asia by elite group interaction and trade (through south India and Bengal) such as in Cambodia (most time during Khamer empire had Hinduism and state religion with mahayana buddhism as main competitor). Thailand (most of state ritual done by bhramin) and Java/Bali(Java once was hindu, this still has influence today as most of Javaist names have sanskrit root. Bali still have prominent hindu.
 
And in even more subtle ways did things from India spread. Like mythical creatures. Dragons, demons etc. Not much to affect World Views, but interesting, no?
 
Ranbir said:
Ah I was under the impressiong the world view wasn't directly from religion. It seems only you've described the Eastern one from Confy(already a foundable religion) While the western and american are not directly from any foundable.

Actually, all three are founded by building a wonder...
Confucianism: Forbidden Palace (which does what Versailles used to)
MesoAmericanism: Chichen Itza (allows Environmentalism)
Hellenism: Parthenon (allows all government civics)

So, here is a Warlords conversion question. Should I change Hellenism to the Temple of Artemis?

Eusebius
 
Ranbir said:
And in even more subtle ways did things from India spread. Like mythical creatures. Dragons, demons etc. Not much to affect World Views, but interesting, no?

No. India's comology and political idea have much effect to middle age of southeast asia. All this state base their pattern on universe with captial as Mt. Sumeru,center of universe, center of economic culture and power. King is assume as god which base in indian political idea of absolute monarchy. Not allow any city in compete as center of universe. Use law from "Manu Dhramasutra". Power base on ritual and technology in hand of Bhramin. Forbid local innovative and act as technology importer.

In mainland of SE asia this political cosmology is develop further by buddhist idea but in now Indonesia and Malaysia is graduallly destroy by Islam political cosmology and western colonization.
(I'm sorry for too short reply but because my longer reply lost during transmitting process and I have no time to rewrite it.)
 
Dunno really. Arthemis was a greek temple?
 
Well could I give a sugestion??Ok here it is for hellenism could you add a Science to it because Hellenism is very into Science because in their view it religion and Science were not conterdictery things, also I suggest that mesoamericanism give a millitary bonus becasue the religon promoted fighting (for captives to sacrifise that is)
 
Slavic Sioux said:
Well could I give a sugestion??Ok here it is for hellenism could you add a Science to it because Hellenism is very into Science because in their view it religion and Science were not conterdictery things, also I suggest that mesoamericanism give a millitary bonus becasue the religon promoted fighting (for captives to sacrifise that is)

The idea about Hellenism is so good that I went back in time and included it in the original release :crazyeye:, i.e. it already does that. I'll have to think about MesoAmericanism.

Thanks,
E.
 
Excuse me. May I give you some suggestion too?

How about create offshoot development of eastern religion tree as

1. confucianism-->neoconfucianism and seperate taoism into other tree with very friendly relation with confucianism

neoconfucianism is the extreme development of confucianism in response to foreign religion (historically buddhism). It is much alike state doctrine that much more support the state power but in some aspect develop more on metaphysic and use more faith than ordinary confucianism. Neoconfucianism is responsible for state policy of China, Korea and Japan during 16th-19th century CE as it made China, Japan and Korea close border and turn to inward perfectionist of their culture but hurt civilization for the anti-innovation stance of the doctrine and hostility to foreign religion. For more information can find in wikipedia.

In term of the game neoconfucianism should use the same or have no contradict with confucianism believer. Start by great prophet when have foreign religion that shrine doesn't in your civilization border spread into your border. They will produce state culture like a mad(perfection of ancester culture) and increace growth rate but hurt you alot in global culture, research and a bit reduce wealth (neoconfucianists were socialist and sometimes act like economic blindness who did'nt understand how the wealth operated since they act as interest group). Allow you to build a defensive wonder which protect you from other civilization and babarian(historically is Ming's great wall which is the expansion of older great wall) and another economic boost wonder "Zheng He's Oversea Voyage" that can only be build under neoconfucian as a state religion but cannot use it effect until you switch state religion to other than neoconfucian. (Zheng He is half buddhist/islam eunuch and admiral in early Ming's court who went oversea exploration under emperor for economic and political greatness of China. Which later all official report of his vovage and his ships were order to be destroy by neoconfucianist beraucrats for inward perfection policy. But his legendry vovage inspire southern chinese to go and settle oversea to seek glory wealth and profit even it violate goverment's order but all of this oversea chinese proven to be useful to China later on after China open their border due to economic transaction, oversea chinese's investment on China's fatherland, technology and sometimes espoinge)

I would suggest that Taoism should allow enviromentalism civic when it is state religion.

2. I would suggest you let's buddhism can develop further into three sect, Thravada(represent as ordinary buddhism), Mahayana Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism (Vajrayana of tibet is one part of it.). With religion tree like this.

Buddhism-->Mahayana Buddhism-->Tantric Buddhism

all three buddhism can use each other the buildings and most of its wonders but different in game bonus (which should not much to balance the wonders effect below and should get production plenalty if possible) and have seperate believer since seperate ways of doctrine so it should cause a bit disadvantage for have different sect in the same civilization .

I agree with you in how to found buddhism and it bonus(but I want you to increace research bonus a bit and more spread rate than Hiduism). Once found buddhism it should allow you to build 2 wonder, Nalanda (first buddhist's university and the best known in medieval India for both religious and worldly subject. Later destroy by the turkish conqueror. For more information, visit www.wikipedia.org ) which grant you research and great people boost can be expire later.(but not happiness since Thravada Buddhism originally monastaic and quite intellectual oriented.) And Temple of Tooth Relic (original in Sri Lanka) Which grant more happiness for Buddhist's temple can be expire( Represent the further development Thravada buddhism to more social oriented outside india. ).

Mahayana Buddism found by great prophet(historically, Nagarjuna) along with Nalanda University. Mahayana buddhism is more social orient and catch lower market sect as they are believe in saving all life and soul as their ideal. Their temple should produce more content citizen and spread fastest among all buddhism (they are once spread cover central asia before coming of Islam and fareast) and their bonus produce more coin and culture but less in beaker since they are less rational compare Thravada Buddhism. With Mahayana as state religion should allow you to build Buddhas of Bamiyan that boost economic and trade routes(corelated to silk road), Sholin Temple that automatically produce Sholin's monk (unit may count as warrior/scout/missionary) and allow to build warrior monk but expire later by technology (Sholin temple in china and warrior monk tradition in japan represent another side of idea of compassion that born in india. While india compassion end in pacifism, Fareastern Mahayana buddhism develop into use their on power to protect another even if it violated pacifism.) and Cults of Kuan Yin (project)(female bodhisattva of mercy of fareast tradition, the variation of originally male Avalogitesvara of india, which second widest worship in buddhism, second to buddha himself, and is widely known in fareast or any place that effect by chinese culture both classic and temporary) which add some happiness to all city with buddhism.

Tantric Buddhism found by Trantrism (project build by hinduism) but splited from Mahayana Buddhism. It is the buddhism that believe in instant knownledge, shortcut to enlightenment and supernatural power that in influence by tantric philosophy of india but still believe in concept of mass oriented saving of all life and soul as in Mahayana ideal. It should have bonus to support the state power in term of war and culture (since tibet once Dali Lama is the ruler both worldly and spiritual with temple as government center. With this they fight as aggressor against Butan and as defender against China) but reduce in coin and beaker since they less promotion on trade and least rational type of all buddhism. It allow to build wonders Potala Palace which reduces maintenance in nearby cities, generate gold for each tantric buddhism city and have all temple count as Broadcast tower and bunker but will not work unless your state religion is Tantric buddhism and Burobudur that add effect of temple and increace culture production and can be expire.

3. Should change tech tree of Hinduism to this.

Bhraminism-->Hinduism-->Sikhism( along with Islam)
-->Jainism

Bhraminism should allow you to build wonder Taxila (Learning center in ancient and classic india) no spread outside border.

Hinduism is found by have more than one religion shrine in border. Have higher spread rate than Bhraminism and better production bonus but use the same temple and shrine of Bhraminism. Should allow it to build Angkor wat and Tantrism (project)(a tradition and philosophy that inflence all aspect of india art, culture and religion)which increace spread rate of and hinduism, increace chance of Great artist, great prophet and great scientist and splited trantric buddhism from Mahayana buddhism.

Sikhism should be separate religion that will be found by have both hindu and Islam in your border and need great prophet. Should have warlike and state bonus since the history of struggle against odd of intorelant rival and born from idea to end conflict of hindus and muslims but not spread outside border.

Jainism should be separate religion that allow to use pacifism to the full potential( jainism is the one who develop pacifism in india) and doesn't spread to outside border.

4. Tech tree of islam should be

(from Eusebius's)--->Islam-->Sunni
-->Shia

Islam should start by great prophet with condition as you state but should give them a free shrine(Kabah Rock). Shia should become seperate religion sect since history of both intorelant of Sunni and Shia against each other but share the same main shrine (but shia will have other wonder that as their own shrine. While Sunni have quicker spread rate, Shia should have some battle bonus instead due to their violent struggle.

5. Catholism, Sunni, Shia should their own religion war unit since they have concept of holywar (such as Templer for catholic, Assasin for Shia, Ansar for Sunni etc.)

6. Howabout have othrodox christain too? as it should splited once someone build Papacy

7. How religious wonders can be use by any civilization that control is due to their state religion food chain and civic such as

the abrahamic group, the higher in food chain can be use wonders of the lower one but cannot use across food chain group such as Judaism cannot use woder of hellenism, all Christianity and all islam, islam can use wonders of all lower food chain include zoroasterianism due to their tolerant toward these group but Sunni cannot use Shia wonders due to their intolerant to each others

The Confucianism group, all first level religion that found in fareast can use each others include whole line of buddhism wonders but neo-confucianism can use only confucianism wonders.

The indic group, every religion in this group can use bhraminism wonders. Sikhism can use all hindu, bhramin and abrahamic line. Buddhism can use all wonders in their separate chain. Hinduism can use all wonders in indic food chain(no matter higher or lower in food chain) with additional of hellenism and mesoamericanism due to their extremely inclusive nature of their religion. Perhap hinduism should allow to build Hindutva project in modern age that allow you to use all religious wonders no matter what chains it reside.

Mesoamericanism can use all polytheism religion wonders such as hellenism, Bhraminism, Hinduism, Mahayana buddhism and Tantric buddhism due to their polytheistic nature.

Secularism cannot use other religious wonders except confucianism and neoconfucianism and secular wonders with little religious ties.
 
For the love of god and all that is holy can we please see a warlords conversion of this!!!!

In other words its great!
 
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