The Deity Challenge Line-up #20 - Spain - Valentine day Resurrected

I'm playing this one pretty slowly... was busy around V-Day and I just finished some urgent work so I just got back to it.

Acken said:

This map is ridiculous .
Maybe I can get my sub 200 SV victory out of this map

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Yes, probably I will get sub 200T culture victory too. DCL slowly turns into emperor+.
I don't have anything against great maps but for God's sake not only such.

We have DCl every 10 days now so 3 times a month so in my opinion ideal would be:

One very good - great map (eg Egypt with marble river high production start, Korea coastal, mountains start,etc) Maps dedicated for lower levels players who want try deity or deity players who want beat personal records etc

One average map probably in most cases it's just enough to roll map with all random settings. Maps for all deity players.

One hard map (due to poor start, no CSs nearby, aggressive neighbours, picked AI strongest opponents,etc). Maps dedicated for good deity players to have some challenge or average deity players to have big challenge

I realise that judging difficulty just from start it's not easy and probably no many people have enough patience to play eg 100 turns just to check difficulty and send map for host but I just described in my opinion ideal situation.

Well in Consentient's defense he warned this would be an easy one. Also it's Spain... so if you don't get an easy one with wonders you may as well play a generic civ

But I'd also want variety so your opinion is noted.

I don't see why any defence would even be necessary, frankly.

We all know that you want hard maps, IronfighterXXX, so is there any need to sound like a broken record? Go back and look at the DCLs that I hosted before this map, #11-19, and tell me one reason why it can't be considered to be resemblant of the pattern you just mentioned.

I think some of them are quite difficult. Not impossible, but there is almost zero demand for those amongst this community. Negativity such as yours was a large part of my decision to resign as host. I had mostly positive comments (that the maps were fun and interesting), for which I was grateful, but I just can't stand it when people like you whine and whine. Go start your own series for pro-players (oh, there already is, it's called the HoF :S)

One hard map (due to poor start, no CSs nearby, aggressive neighbours, picked AI strongest opponents,etc). Maps dedicated for good deity players to have some challenge or average deity players to have big challenge

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Where is your submission for DCL #14 then? Poor dirt, the backstab twins as neighbours, all naval civs on a naval map. => Four total finishers.

Ditto for DCL #12....7 submissions for a god-tier civ. Why? Probably because the start was sub-optimal and the other continent had some cultural and scientific powerhouses.

- - -

(addressing the wider DCL community now)

Most of you like turtling science victories, as evidenced by the Aztec map. I get that. Not my thing, but you can hardly say I ignored your needs completely, either.

In fact, during my tenure, I tried to achieve 3 main aims...

1. To introduce non-Deity players to the game, and to introduce new types of map to the Pangaea-only people, including OCC, Small Continents, etc.

2. To persuade people not just to attempt the current challenges, but to go back and play the Dinglebirdy and Grendeldef maps.

3. To encourage people to try VCs they normally didn't opt for.

I think I had some limited success...but regardless of what you think about this, let me posit one final comment as something of a warning...

If you let the very best players take total control of the DCL again, it will become a series just for them, and you will not have so much fun, I think.

Ironfighter talks about balance, but if he's honest, it's not what he wants, he wants only the most difficult challenges.

When a host says in advance that a map is going to be easy and just for fun, and people can't accept that, and can't look back and see that past maps were not all play school, then I think he has good reason to be annoyed when people totally miss the point.

To describe my maps as Emperor+ is grossly inaccurate and wholly insulting, IMO.

@consentient

I just delivered my general opinion about DCL not about yours maps, so don't take it too personally.

consentient said:

(addressing the wider DCL community now)
Most of you like turtling science victories, as evidenced by the Aztec map.

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I wouldn't say that for myself, but it's my "safe" play on a Deity map. As for the Aztec map, well, it was just calling for a science game with those mountains and one of the best tall civs
Actually, what i would like is getting better at Domination If that map is that strong (well, Spain can be) it might be a good time to try domination with an easier empire management so i can focus on war, and without uber UUs that don't help you learn how to wage war with normal units.
I didn't play it because it's a Terra map and they tend to be too large and make for slow late games. Let's see if i can dominate before games slows down to a crawl.

In my case, consentient achieved all 3 of his goals:

1. I was between Emperor and Immortal before I hit the DCLs
2. I rolled Continents and Archipelagos thinking I could only win those.
3. No explanation needed, I scored my first DomV ever and I'm very proud of myself for doing it

However, I wouldn't think of myself as a *full fledged* deity player unless I can clear out the harder maps. But that takes dedication, which I have but obviously not as much.

So, I actually understand both of yous, while there were some rather hard maps like, say, 4, 10 and 14 which I haven't finished yet, there were also really fun ones with varying difficulty, 16 standing out for being rather unusually fun. So I disagree that the DCLs are easy, it was a really mixed bag of difficulties and I honestly don't want it any differently. I am pretty much certain I would never be able to win 14 if I started with that one, but now I gained some experience and I think I could take a swing at it with better success, key being knowing the game in the name of fun.

If you want to turn it into a willy measuring contest, fine whatever, but that would then make this forum look more like your typical internet message board and I'm fairly sure lots of people, me included, would just walk

You better go play than spam here

CV T235

IronfighterXXX said:

@consentient

I just delivered my general opinion about DCL not about yours maps, so don't take it too personally.

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No, you didn't.

IronfighterXXX said:

DCL slowly turns into emperor+

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For the DCL to have turned into Emperor+, it is implied that it wasn't Emperor+ beforehand. In other words, you thought it was harder before, and it has gotten easier.

Clearly, Grendeldef's maps were harder than both mine and Dinglebirdy's, but if you compare my 10 with Dinglebirdy's 8, I think they are comparable. DCLs #5, #6 and #8 were really easy. Others were middle. #4 was pretty tough. I think the balance has been relatively consistent.

So not only are you, in actual fact, making a judgement on my maps, but you are, I think incorrect. I invite you to actually posit an argument if you disagree. If you're unwilling to do so, then how about you agree to something else instead: to hold your tongue on the subject of DCL map difficulty?

If Acken, the board admins, and/or the DCL community think that I'm horribly wrong to push you towards this agreement, then I will back down, but I'm really tired of your sniping without you backing up anything you say.

I am not 'taking it personally for no reason' when you stir up arguments with negative comments that don't help anyone and I then get warnings and infractions for taking you to task for it.

You could be like other good players and actually share your skill with others. But instead you are just wholly negative, from what I can see.

stormtrooper412 said:

If you want to turn it into a willy measuring contest, fine whatever, but that would then make this forum look more like your typical internet message board and I'm fairly sure lots of people, me included, would just walk

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This isn't a willy measuring contest, I take offence at that. I consider it a matter of principle to not let people trash talk me, or the efforts I make, or the efforts of others that I appreciate.

From this forum member, we've had him calling the DCL a "so-called challenge", "Emperor+" and other slurs. Admin have not reined him in, so I'm confronting him. I don't want this confrontation to drag on and on, which is why I've asked him to just can it. If he won't do that after this message, then it will be me that will 'just walk'.

And to those people that would read this and think 'it's just a game', I would say 'yes, it is. And I just want to enjoy it, and the community that surrounds the DCL, without unwarranted negativity, thanks'.

I don't think any player can argue that 18,19, and 20 were easy, easier, and easiest. However, almost all the games are easy when you really come down to it. Once again this is not a contest or supposed to be a competition but one can not help to compete since most players have a competitive nature at the core. I do not think anyone was attacking any host at any time about what they were posting. I do think that we are all entitled to express our opinions about what we thought of the game or map. This should not reflect on any individual but more so about what they thought about the map which is just an opinion and has no bearing on the DCL as a whole.

Dinglebirdy hardly participated or shared his views on the games that he posted which (IMO) made him a much worse host. He also left a short post saying he was on vacation and someone needed to post the next map and never returned which was really ugly (IMO). He started this up again and at least he could of said I do not wish to do this anymore and leave it at that instead of just leaving things up in the air as he did. This is not to say that any host has been bad. The whole point is to post up a map and let us all share what we thought good or bad and to share our games win or lose. However, most players who lose do not post and I believe that a lot of players download the map and just do not post in general which I guess defines the Lurkers.

(IMO) and that is just an opinion I welcome all negative comments since they will help sharpen me as a host. My case in point is that I almost refuse to scout out my maps before I post them. However, with recent negative comments I have decided to actually play the game out 20-100 turns without any reloads to see if the map is going to be to my liking. One point was made that to make the game more difficult is to have Korea on the other side of the world so I now changed my thinking to find a map that will showcase this. I also love Alex in the game because he makes it much harder to ally the CS's. I like Ethiopia in the game because it is harder to attack him with his defense and he always gets a strong religion which helps to make the game more difficult as well. I like Poland in the game because he gets more SPs than most Civs and the human Civ for sure. Egypt and Pacal are good choices as well since they will help beat you to any Wonder. Shaka is almost in every game I choose since if he is close to you... you can have a higher chance of getting rolled!

Anyways... I think we should all just sit down and have a few pints and let bygones be bygones and move forward. One can't argue if you go back to DCL 10 and read Consentients comments that he was trying to make the game more accessible to a wider player base in hopes to get more player support. I think the plan was to make them a little easier and once the player support was stronger he would change gears and start to make them harder and harder. Just an observation and it might be incorrect but I have looked back at those conversations and it was clear that he was unhappy with 9/10 and wanted more favourable starts. This was a direct quote which kinda shows my point...

consentient said:

Sorry, this map is way too hard for me.

The Rome one was too.

I think that 'pro' Deity players have enough in the way of challenges trying to get quick win times in the HoF, etc. I'm of the view that the DCL shouldn't be so hard that only the best Deity players can get there.

The fact that many 'top' players struggled with the Rome map and that I think THIS one is even harder, tells me that perhaps the kind of player that I am:- e.g. an Immortal player that wins on Deity 40-50% of the time (with the maps that I play) is disenfranchised by maps that are too hard.

I appreciate the job being done by the OP, stepping up to the plate and providing a service for the rest of the forum, I would just politely request that he finds maps that are a bit less 'WTF'

I don't mind the Terra map. I don't mind the insane neighbours. It's the lack of good ground that pushes it over the edge for me.

Unlike posters above who had success with their Settler, I played this map three times without success. First time I settled on the coast just south of the starting location, made a scout and sent him out but he didn't find anything for like 30 turns. Meanwhile the lack of good dirt made me unable to grow or make hammers for defence.

Second time I sent the Settler off straight away and despite the sight advantage he landed on an island which we can safely say was named 'Barb Island'. No sooner did he land than he was trampled by a horse and captured.

Third time I sent him in a different direction and he was trampled, this time by a Galley.

Not fun for me, sorry.

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However, who really cares! It does not matter in the grand aspect of things. We need to stop this back and forth of trying to prove each others points because in the end we just want to play the game and post up results. That being said I would like to see some more difficult starts soon and I am sure that is what is going to happen. Either way, once again, I most likely will play all maps posted regardless since it is the posting that keeps me coming back for more. Actually the IDS thread has more difficult games when you compare the two but the DCL is 100X stronger in player support!

I was a little upset with the Spain map once I got to turn 120 and realized it was going to be unlike any game that I have ever played on Deity which actually was a role reversal since the player had all the advantages unlike any other over the AI. However, I seen some players struggling and I had a change of heart and decided to finish it out which was nice to actually get a CV in the end since I never want to do the work for CV so I have to thank Consentient for that and also give him thanks and praise for staying on as DCL host as long as he did because he was ready to give it up on DCL 12 or 13!

Oh, if you go back to DCL 1 you will see Acken and myself were in a heated debate about "Luck" which I do not believe exists. We had our differences but in the end we agreed to disagree and actually friended each other on this site! The whole thing started because he would like some games without ruins and I said ruins do not matter in the long run and he was saying they matter in the short run to compare games and I do agree with that statement but once again there is no such thing as LUCK lol!! Since Acken is now the DCL Host I am guessing we will see a map very soon with No Ruins which I will gladly enjoy!

Yeah, I wanted easier than Grendeldef's, not easier than Dinglebirdy's. I think Dinglebirdy was a good host myself. I really wish he'd not fallen through the earth's crust but had stayed on and kept putting out decent maps. Could have saved a lot of hassle.

Oh and having a Spain map without the Inca kinda upset me but I understand that the theme was a cat fight but I need the Inca in the game since Spain pretty much wiped them out trying to find the lost city of gold so you would have to roll map after map trying to find the Inca with El Dorado in its borders which would take a very long time to find lol!

Yeah the theme was that Isabella wanted to prove (by warfare or superior culture...or at a push, launching a stupid rocket) that she is the most beautiful of the female civ leaders. Theo would definitely 'get it' more readily than the Pious (and presumably puritan) Izzy, but this is 'fairest', not 'fit to' XXXX'.

Originally, I had the idea of Enrico plus 7 female leaders...so the blind guy can 'pick' who is the fairest of them all, but after numerous attempts to find a good map, I just gave up. Venice sucks worst than Spain for trying to find a map that is fun and neither OP or plain crap.

Evening gonad said:

Oh cool, I didn't know that. I will watch your LP if you post it. I watched the China and Byzantine ones. Learned about worker baiting there, though I never have the workers necessary at Immortal to do it cheaply (because of poor technique). Had some success with it here against city states.

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I've uploaded the first 4 parts in the following playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeJVlNgPKVo&list=PL5IXV43xjKWTL-Sd1abn826SDRA33GS-A

Since you brought it up, F.A., I'm gonna respond to the point about DCL #10 and my reaction. I've been thinking about it since reading your post, and I think I'm going to use it as an example.

The question that arises is: how often does the DCL community want such a map as the Polynesia one? When I took over, there was indeed discussion about a pattern identical to the one that Ironfighter mentions. I'm sure if someone really scoured the back threads they would find the post where I label them as Accessible, Challenging and 'Hardcore', or something like that.

However, the Hardcore map being a part of it was initially on the proviso that Grendeldef roll that one. When he also disappeared from CFC, I decided to try something a wee bit harder myself and that gave us DCL #14 (which has less finishers than DCL #10, despite more downloads) and #15

And, yet again, I see the concession, from IronfighterXXX no less, that it's hard to judge the difficulty. Having played both 14 and 15 to around T90ish (late NC in both cases) at the time, I actually thought 15 was the more difficult map.

So there are lots of acknowledgements that it's not easy to judge difficulty, but very little allowances for that. You're saying DCL #18 was easy. Maybe it was, but not in either of my 2 playthroughs, plus the entire concept of OCC on Deity was quite new to me, and a lot of players.

Maybe Acken, being a better player by an order of magnitude, will be a better judge of difficulty. But let's put that to the side for a second and imagine that he isn't. That he chooses maps that are, like Grendeldef's, perceived as too hard, or, like 18-20, perceived as too easy.

What should the community do?

And this returns us to the initial question, of what the community wants.

Throughout my time as host, I readily invited constructive comments, suggestions, and maps, via email, yet I received very few maps and NOT a single message saying "Nice work but maybe some harder maps". So what was the deal? Was there no problem until #18, and then people started giving me a hard time about it, an initiative which snowballed with #19 (which was an appreciated present for the turtlers but clearly disliked by the 'I want a harder map' contingent)? Or was there always a feeling that the maps were too easy but no-one was saying anything?

I also think that the people who gave me negative feedback are a vocal minority. What is a host to do? Ignore the vocal minority and give the majority what they want? Or vice versa, since the minority include the 'senior' members? Or something else? What I tried to do, what I always try to do, is to communicate, and to stick to my principles. I made a big effort to get the community at large to resolve its differences and decide once and for all what it wants, but that didn't happen, and then, only after I stepped down, did the outpouring of support begin. And I'm grateful for that support and kind words, but I would much rather those same people communicate not just with me but with each other and by consensus decide what the real purpose of the DCL is.

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of differing difficulties, and I feel I achieved it quite well during my tenure. I'm sorry that 19 was too easy for some people, and I'm even sorrier that people don't get the idea of a Valentine's Special.

But I stick by my warning to the whole community that they should be careful that the DCL doesn't become too elite and too difficult, a testing ground for sub-T240 victories.

The only way that the community will determine anything happens other than pure luck, is to speak up now.

As before, Acken has my full support and I will respect anything he does.

I think all players can agree that the game itself is broken and if a player plays as Acken or IronfighterXXX or other top players one will never lose no matter what restraints are implemented into the game. I think most players will agree that the DCL is more for fun and learning rather than competition. I know for myself that each game has made me a stronger player by far and I notice that you have eclipsed me as a player in recent weeks from playing these games. So I would say that your tenure as host was a major success and I feel that it is too bad that you let some negative comments get you down to the point of letting go of the reigns. However, being host is another animal compared to just playing out the games and I can understand any player not wanting to host so they can focus more on playing and learning. I think that your idea of rotating hosts was the best idea so far since it would take the burden of rolling maps off of only one player and all the comments as well.

Now what would I do differently to try to appease to all players? I would do this:

I might change the DCL to every 8 days which is going to strain players because of time but in reality I think only 5-10 of us play every map in the first day or two and it doesn't matter because they are open to all for an unlimited amount of time.

Now I would make the maps a 4 tier difficulty level and each week I would put up a different VC condition that was optional. So week 1 you make the map as hard as possible with Korea on the other side of the world. Shaka right next door. Alex in the middle so you can't get him out of the game early. I would put Egypt or Pacal in a far place to reach so they beat you to the early Wonders perhaps. I would never put random personalities or disable start bias because it messes up the AI too much.

I think you can see where I am going. Week one you make it Domination because it is the hardest map and start. Now you get to level 2 on week 2 and make it easier and so forth and so forth ending on week four with the OP start map and Civ. I guess week four is Diplo and week three is SV and week two is CV with a hard map and a hard VC. Now in the second month you switch the week one and two for the VC of CV and Domination. Anways... (Nacho Libre Quote... ANYWAYS ) I think you see my point.

On a side note... I think if IronfighterXXX was the host he would still not be happy with the maps because the game is so easy for him that he really has lost interest but I know that if everyone would focus on the VC each week he would play more because it would be easier to compare games which seems to be what he enjoys most.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I understand you wanting easier land since your PC can't handle the late turns so well. That has to be the most frustrating thing for you. For me it does not matter since my PC can get into turn 400 without skipping a beat.

It's not so much about wanting easier (than average) land. It's about actively NOT wanting worse than average land. DCLs #9 and #10 were, for me, godawful maps. I didn't much like #7, either. But the rest I can get along with. What makes the game finish quickly for me is having a decent shot at doing something. If you read my write-up for DCL #10, you'll see that I replayed a bunch of times, and on the last time, I took out Shaka AND Monty before being swarmed by Oda. That's just a PITA.

Indeed, rotating hosts still has my vote, no offence to Acken.

consentient said:

This isn't a willy measuring contest, I take offence at that. I consider it a matter of principle to not let people trash talk me, or the efforts I make, or the efforts of others that I appreciate.

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I'm sorry but that post didn't include you, what I meant was that if the DCL itself turns into a willy measuring contest as in who can finish faster, then I'm obviously dropping out not because I can't compete (and yes, I obviously can't), but rather because that's absolutely crazy! By the way I've been one of your more vocal defenders because I really appreciate the effort you put in making all this.

consentient said:

Originally, I had the idea of Enrico plus 7 female leaders...so the blind guy can 'pick' who is the fairest of them all, but after numerous attempts to find a good map, I just gave up. Venice sucks worst than Spain for trying to find a map that is fun and neither OP or plain crap.

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Yeah, Venice either needs great land to go super tall or it just gets steamrolled by whoever happens to be in the mood, see a funny screenshot I posted some time ago

Regarding difficulty, it's definitely difficult to assess that. I'd assume a map would need to be tested more than once and by more than one player, which is I suppose a kind of synergy with the multiple host idea. But that's taking it too far. I mean, if Acken can finish a map in 215 turns, that doesn't mean it's easy, it just means Acken is in a league of his own obviously.

I can personally say that the frequent griping from various people about maps being "too easy" is a big reason why I mostly stopped participating in these and switched to HoF Gauntlets. It's not just the negativity toward the host; it's also alienating toward less-experienced players. Like, we get it, Deity is easy for you. It isn't for most people. What I don't get is how people can lack the self-awareness to realize that them being extremely good at Civ is the reason that Civ is easy -- Civ is Civ, and if it's easy for you, that's because of YOU, not because other people have some mysterious inability to roll sufficiently difficult maps.

I have trouble interpreting these posts as anything other than trying to make this a "willy measuring contest". Especially with the focus on victory turn-times. These threads are actually great if you want a "willy measuring contest", since there's no rules and you can do whatever you want to make yourself look good -- as far as I know, everyone but me restarted once they found the Natural Wonders and beelined right for them, then posted whatever amazing result they got that way. As far as you know, I did that too.

In summary: Kudos to those of you who use these threads as opportunities to tell interesting stories or demonstrate strategic experiments. For those of you obsessing over a challenge that Deity can't provide you, I invite you to come on over to the HoF forum and compete against yourself in some gauntlets. The AI may never be a worthy opponent, but "your own previous best time" always will be.