SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
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Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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LC said that he wanted to test it.
Time is at a premium for me for the next week, so I'm not sure if I'll get any Civ time. Maybe you can swap me with beestar in the roster order, which should give me enough time to get set up with a Civ-capable computer after my busy time.
That is, if beestar is okay with being "on deck" right now. If not, just shift me down in the roster a couple of places.
LowtherCastle
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Mitchum: What Dhoom was saying. To set the low sea level, (cylindrical, tropical, as needed,) you set them under continents for example, then switch from continents to Global Highlands. It leaves those settings untouched.
I definitely want to do some testing.
I definitely want to do some testing.
Mitchum
Deity
OK. Here's the test game. All AI cities have been pre-settled with Buddhism. Please tell me the settings are correct... 
Mitchum
Deity
Keep in mind that I made most tiles in the fog coast/ocean tiles, so we're on a small island. That may make it tough to fully test the deer site, but I didn't want to put something there that isn't in the real game...
I'll be playing it in debug mode anyway, so I can watch the AI behaviour.
In particular I'd like to see if they really do send out unescorted settlers with Aggressive AI on.
I've just discovered something fascinating.
We can found Hinduism by researching Meditation
Probably want to get confirmation from Neil that that's ok first though, because that's a game-changer, and could be an oversight.
We can found Hinduism by researching Meditation
Probably want to get confirmation from Neil that that's ok first though, because that's a game-changer, and could be an oversight.
What?! Because Buddhism is already founded?
Exactly. If we are the first to learn Meditation, and Buddhism is already founded, the Choose Religion dialog comes up, and we can select Hinduism.
(And yes, no one knows Meditation, since the tech chooser at the top of the screen still has the "founds a religion" icon).
In that case, could you found any other religion with Poly? Does this cascade all the way down to Divine Right? I guess it doesn't matter in our game, even in cultural vic, since we already have both stone and marble...
If we found Hinduism with Meditation, and then research Poly, we could take our pick of religions with that tech too. If we research Poly first, we get Hinduism automatically.
Well, we get to potentially shave a turn off early research. Nice find, ZPV. 
I bet some teams totally freak when Confu gets founded in 2200 BC.
I bet some teams totally freak when Confu gets founded in 2200 BC.
Dhoomstriker
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Hmmm, so we could also research Meditation and accidentally found, say, Taoism, and then lose the game...Well, we get to potentially shave a turn off early research. Nice find, ZPV.
I bet some teams totally freak when Confu gets founded in 2200 BC.
I would be interested to see what the AIs do... do they value Meditation any differently because:
a) Buddhism has been founded and thus they avoid Meditation?
OR
b) they realise that any Religion can be founded and thus many of them beeline for Meditation, making it easier for us to grab Polytheism first?
OR
c) they don't really seem to be coded to care and still research Meditation and/or Polytheism using their normal determination, since either tech still allows them to found a Religion
Of special interest would be if a) is the case, meaning that we could:
i. go for Polytheism first and then after Agriculture go for Meditation to get an easy-to-tech second Religion
OR
ii. go for Polytheism first and then, due to the AIs avoiding Polytheism (due to us having founded Hinduism) and then, if they do avoid Meditation, have them avoid going toward Feudalism for quite a long time, since you need one of either Meditation or Polytheism in order to get Feudalism (due to needing one of Priesthood or Monotheism for Monarchy, which is needed for Feudalism)
If it's case c) above, then we could be in for a wild, unpredictable ride... an AI goes for Meditation and founds, say, Confucianism... okay, we can probably figure out that an AI was actually the first to Meditation since it will happen so early. BUT, then, later, when an AI learns Christianity, will it be because they researched Code of Laws and took Christianity due to it being the Favourite Religion of a lot of AIs or did they actually take Christanity due to having researching Theology??? It could potentially get very confusing even if we know about the situation!!!
Another note is that Meditation + Code of Laws (or Meditation + Drama) unlocks Philosophy, meaning that we'd be Lightbulbing Philosophy before the Astronomy path. So, by saving a turn, it could delay our push to Astronomy if we do end up choosing to go for Domination despite Neilmeister's pitfalls. The only real pitfall that concerns me is Maintenance Costs, but since there are no Colonial Maintenance Costs, it won't be a major issue... and it will affect AIs, too, so they will probably similarly suffer from increased Maintenance Costs, thus warring could be against Archers for a very long time anyway.
Since we would have to decide whether or not to unlock Meditation blindly, I think that we still should go after Polytheism. That said, it will be neat to know if we can pick up a second Religion really cheaply (Islam as an extra Religion without having to tech Divine Right, anyone?)... although realistically we'd take Judaism since it has the highest chance of spreading naturally.
If we do go for Domination, a second early Religion won't really be of use and might make the game harder due to one less AI potentially switching out of Buddhism.
Hmmm, so we could also research Meditation and accidentally found, say, Taoism, and then lose the game...
I would be interested to see what the AIs do... do they value Meditation any differently because:
a) Buddhism has been founded and thus they avoid Meditation?
OR
b) they realise that any Religion can be founded and thus many of them beeline for Meditation, making it easier for us to grab Polytheism first?
OR
c) they don't really seem to be coded to care and still research Meditation and/or Polytheism using their normal determination, since either tech still allows them to found a Religion
Of special interest would be if a) is the case, meaning that we could:
i. go for Polytheism first and then after Agriculture go for Meditation to get an easy-to-tech second Religion
OR
ii. go for Polytheism first and then, due to the AIs avoiding Polytheism (due to us having founded Hinduism) and then, if they do avoid Meditation, have them avoid going toward Feudalism for quite a long time, since you need one of either Meditation or Polytheism in order to get Feudalism (due to needing one of Priesthood or Monotheism for Monarchy, which is needed for Feudalism)
If it's case c) above, then we could be in for a wild, unpredictable ride... an AI goes for Meditation and founds, say, Confucianism... okay, we can probably figure out that an AI was actually the first to Meditation since it will happen so early. BUT, then, later, when an AI learns Christianity, will it be because they researched Code of Laws and took Christianity due to it being the Favourite Religion of a lot of AIs or did they actually take Christanity due to having researching Theology??? It could potentially get very confusing even if we know about the situation!!!
Another note is that Meditation + Code of Laws (or Meditation + Drama) unlocks Philosophy, meaning that we'd be Lightbulbing Philosophy before the Astronomy path. So, by saving a turn, it could delay our push to Astronomy if we do end up choosing to go for Domination despite Neilmeister's pitfalls. The only real pitfall that concerns me is Maintenance Costs, but since there are no Colonial Maintenance Costs, it won't be a major issue... and it will affect AIs, too, so they will probably similarly suffer from increased Maintenance Costs, thus warring could be against Archers for a very long time anyway.
Since we would have to decide whether or not to unlock Meditation blindly, I think that we still should go after Polytheism. That said, it will be neat to know if we can pick up a second Religion really cheaply (Islam as an extra Religion without having to tech Divine Right, anyone?)... although realistically we'd take Judaism since it has the highest chance of spreading naturally.
If we do go for Domination, a second early Religion won't really be of use and might make the game harder due to one less AI potentially switching out of Buddhism.
It doesn't make much difference - yes, they prioritize religion a little lower due to already having one, but they can still pick a Myst-Med/Poly beeline to start with, just like a normal game.
No, we don't want to pick Judaism. We want to pick one that is behind Hinduism, our state religion, in priority. (Alone, they all have equal chances of spreading; it's just when there are more than one that things get slightly tilted one way or the other).
We can almost certainly figure it out, if Christianity gets founded early. (e.g. has Monotheism been taken yet, has the Oracle been built, etc.)
Lightbulbing concerns are something to think about, but saving two turns on Agriculture now seems very tempting.
Dhoomstriker
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Would Settler-first be the better option if we thought that, after researching Polytheism and founding Hinduism, it could be worth it to tech Meditation next?
I can't imagine wanting to further delay Agriculture and the key worker techs that we really need as soon as possible. If we did, and thus gave a worker even less to do, yes, Settler-first jumps up the list.
Remember, non-state religions produce no culture. Founding a second one isn't a free (albeit quite expensive
) border pop.
Dhoomstriker
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Founding that second Religion would only really be for a Cultural Victory, not for Cultural Border expansion, as you say.Remember, non-state religions produce no culture. Founding a second one isn't a free (albeit quite expensive
It wouldn't really help us in an AP Victory game, since we'd get Christianity (or whatever Religion is left after the Meditation-learner picks up Christianity) as a second Religion for the case where we aren't isolated and can try and trick an AI into building a non-Buddhist, non-Hindu AP.
Also, looking at the situation in reverse... if an AI chooses to tech Meditation first and then founds Hinduism with it, we could automatically lose the game. As such, there are two techs that the AIs could research to try and beat us to founding Hinduism.
So, if anyone was still considering going for Agriculture first, that idea is even going to be tougher to pull off.
Further, I wonder how it works... I mean, if there is only 1 Religion left in the world and neither Philosophy nor Divine Right have been teched by anyone, will whichever of those techs gets researched first (i.e. the timing of the second last Religious tech being learned) be when the 7th Religion gets founded? Does that mean that the last Religious tech to be learned (likely Divine Right) won't even have a Religion associated with it?
If yes, AIs are even more likely to delay building Versailles and The Spiral Minaret, which are normally excellent Wonders to capture (as opposed to self-building them), which makes Domination slightly worse as an option, as we'll have an even smaller chance of an AI building Versailles for us (or the Spiral Minaret for us if we do go for a Hindu Apostolic Palace).
beestar
subdeity
Good discovery ZPV!
Unfortunately I don't have time to do test game playing in the next few weeks, due to massive work pressure, so perhaps someone else would be better to go on deck for these very tightly planned early turns.
Though if we are going to plan out a micro schedule in advance, I could easily execute it
Unfortunately I don't have time to do test game playing in the next few weeks, due to massive work pressure, so perhaps someone else would be better to go on deck for these very tightly planned early turns.
Though if we are going to plan out a micro schedule in advance, I could easily execute it
