Proposed Community Expansion - Help Needed!

I would love to include Prussia, the only problem is I've probably stacked up enough European civs already.

What's the current list again?

EDIT: Sorry. It's only the page back.

What are you talking about? You've only got four European civs.

Seriously, though, shouldn't civs be included based upon their merit and thematic viability, not their race?

Yes, I completely agree it should be more about how they fit in than anything else, but it's just that everyone always gets mad when there's too many European civs. Gods and Kings had six, so will I be able to get away with five? That's the real question. If I can, I would be happy to have Prussia. Thanks for the suggestion!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=524063

TPangolin has already started this thread before I had any chance to explain this

I'm still interested in helping with this mod as WWI scenario can be awesome and I have many ideas for it However me and TPangolin noticed few big philosophical differences between two 'factions' in this thread:

1) Viregel's original faction
- main theme is World War I
- scenarios are very important
- custom additional civilisations fit WWI: Belgium, Finland, Mexico, Argentina, Israel, Italy, Serbia
- few other details
- the expansion is concentrated mainly on Viregel's Vision

2) TPangolin and me:
- not interested in WWI as a main theme
- don't really care about scenarios
- already existing civilisations who Civ mainstream players demand

So, TPangolin decided to create separate group.

Now I'd like to not make this division create bad atmosphere/unhealthy rivalisation and explain all potential problems Generally speaking it seems these two expansions have entirely different philosophy and entirely different focus so there shouldn't be a problem - except from Colonisation and Exploration. Both expansions want to cover this theme so we should somehow solve this issue:
1st solution - each expansion creates its own Colonisation/Exploration ideas based on entirely different philosophy
2nd solution - both expansions create the same CE system and adopt in both mods They are different in all other aspects.

This concept of "what players demand" seems awfully arbitrary. Who are the players? The people who up-rate the proposed civs on Steam? The modders here willing to grant use of their mods? Or the few mod-users here that are participating in these discussions?

Viregel's proposition has the sense of a true expansion; complete with a coherent theme and structure. TPangolin's seemed to have the same, just a different theme. However, you're indicating that this is not true?

I dispute that Viregel's expansion is necessary comprised so strictly of his "vision," in contrast to TPangolin, at least. He has indicated that he intends to include a variety of community efforts. TPangolin, as yet, however, has only outlined his own ideas.

...this one with players was my mistake Yeah I wouldn't say that.

TPangolin was already asking me about my ideas but I am currently working on making something coferent from them.

Also I apologize if my words about Vision sounded strange, I mean I already see pretty different design philosophy of these two groups - Viregel wants to focus on WWI, scenarios and WWI civs, TPangolin and me aren't interested in these things at all. It is probably better to create separate mods for separate ideas [although as I said, I am still interested in helping here] than battle here over entirely different design conceptions

As I said, the only problematic thing which is shared be these both mods is currently Colonisation and Exploration theme and we should mainly solve this issue - I proposed two solutions

Viregel, the time has come to design a real OP.

JFD said:

This concept of "what players demand" seems awfully arbitrary. Who are the players? The people who up-rate the proposed civs on Steam? The modders here willing to grant use of their mods? Or the few mod-users here that are participating in these discussions?

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This will be fun to answer

There are three concepts that I've designed the Colonialist Legacies pack around - Colonization, Enlightenment and Exploration. These are certainly recurring themes for suggestions post BNW. This is a pack that is aimed to please and caters towards these said themes as opposed to an egostroking self satisfactory pack made for me, by me. It's aimed to be as accessible as possible, alongside including as many ideas as possible, whilst not being too intimidating for the casual user.

I've seen the same three concepts pop up, time and time again all over the internet regarding what users would add. It's a discussion that is readily held via YouTube let's plays, the Steam Forum, the Civ subreddit and of course all over CivFanatics.

This expansion concept exists to cater towards the crowds that say "I really want to see a Switzerland civ in a future expansion. The crowds that say "I wish the World Congress wasn't so boring". The users that lament that there is no Canadian civilization, that Exploration leaves something to desire. The people that want the Inuits, so that they can frolic around in the snowy wilderness, those people that want to see where their computerized counterparts have explored.

The people that wanted a reason to venture across the seas and set up distant colonies. People wanted Tea, Rice and Opium? Why isn't Cocoa and Bison in the main game? And for the love of god, where in the hell are the Canals???

This expansion is for those people.

The people who up-rate the proposed civs on Steam. The modders here willing to grant use of their mods. And the few mod-users here that are participating in these discussions. It's a community expansion, for the community, by the community.

JFD said:

TPangolin, as yet, however, has only outlined his own ideas.

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These are my ideas, based off of what I've seen all over the web. I'm more than happy to include what people want - because ultimately this is why this pack exists. To pick up where BNW left off. To go boldly where no expansion has gone before.

TPangolin said:

The concepts that I've designed this pack around - Colonization, Enlightenment and Exploration are certainly a recurring theme for suggestions post BNW. This is a pack that is aimed to please and cater towards these themesa as opposed to an egostroking self satisfactory pack made for me, by me. It's aimed to be as accessible as possible, include as many ideas, whilst not being to intimidating.

Click to expand...

But these systems are to be designed according to your likeness, if not enough people participate in presenting competing ideas that win your favour. It's fine to make it a pack of your own and to label it as such, and then to take in community input, but to presume it is a community project is precluding those whose ideas are contrary to yours, or those who do not present their ideas to this project. Why not drop the "community expansion" label and make it your own compilation project?

TPangolin said:

This expansion concept exists to cater towards the crowds that say "I really want to see a Switzerland civ in a future expansion. The crowds that say "I wish the World Congress wasn't so boring". The users that lament that there is no Canadian civilization, that Exploration leaves something to desire. The people that want the Inuits, so that they can frolic around in the snowy wilderness, those people that want to see where their computerized counterparts have explored.

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It must be a reddit phenomenon, because I don't see many clamouring for Switzerland. In any case, these individuals who want these civs can already get them. If they want them in an expansion: this is an aside. They want them in an official capacity. But a community expansion is never going to be the same as an official expansion. There are a variety of reasons for wanting a particular civ in an official expansion that a community one cannot fulfill.

And unless you can tempt the prominent DLL modders of our community, who have their own projects and discretionary ideas, you won't have much luck invigorating the World COngress.

TPangolin said:

The people that wanted a reason to venture across the seas and set up distant colonies. People wanted Tea, Rice and Opium? Why isn't Cocoa and Bison in the main game? And for the love of god, where in the hell are the Canals???

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http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/b13be4e0-8afa-4474-a2ec-29b011f5a5cf/mod.html - Canals
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505676 - Tea, Cocoa.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=173140593&searchtext= - Rice
And I'm sure Bison is around somewhere.

TPangolin said:

These are my ideas, based off of what I've seen all over the web. I'm more than happy to include what people want - because ultimately this is why this pack exists. To pick up where BNW left off. To go boldly where no expansion has gone before.

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You're taking this out of context. This was aimed strictly at Krajzen.

JFD, the thread has been up for less than a day. The ideas that I've outlined have only been mulling around in my head for a day.

To say that these are early days is an understatement - mainly because it hasn't even been a day since conception.

As of yet, I'm not worried about people not participating. Mainly because I need to set up a plan on how to garner information.

The reason I made a solid outline is so that people can see the a part of the picture. It will get the ball rolling as opposed to me saying something like "Yeah, let's include colonization and a couple of new civs".

If I can pull together a solid concept based on some of the most popular ideas I've seen from all around the internet - then I can get the ball rolling and can subsequently gather momentum. Reddit articles have led to Kotaku articles and subsequently have lead to promotion on Facebook.

For me, either way - it's a Community Expansion, for the Community and based off of ideas from the community. It will be a compilation of things such as the things that you linked - but in an accessible format.

One of the major complaints I've seen is that Mods are finnicky, enabling them is a hassle and they take ages to load. This is aimed to be the whole shebang, but in an accessible package.

The point is that you're calling it a community expansion without knowing that it will be. But only time will tell, and I may be powerless to maintain this position before long. You are, after all, a shrewd spokesperson.

It's easier to think about Marathon than making one step.

I'd say the first step has been made - my idea was based off impulse, but in my mind I feel it has potential. I'm calling it a Community Expansion because if it gets made, it will be made by community, and an array of modders. It already includes civs made by you, me, Neirai, LS, Tomatekh, Jan, Leugi, Viregel and Sukitract.

Anyway, don't want to derail Viregel's thread. I'd post stuff relating the the CL Pack in the respective thread.

TPangolin said:

It already includes civs made by you, me, Neirai, LS, Tomatekh, Jan, Leugi, Viregel and Sukitract.

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Although I don't recall being asked if I wanted to see my art involved in such a project. I don't like the way you are using those names in the context of your mod pack, as if permission to use the civs was granted by default and that those people endorse your project unanimously, while they don't have - so far - anything to say in the design department. It might be called a "community" expansion, yet the community might have no knowledge of you using their creations.

It's a proposal nonetheless, and I apologize for any offense caused. But as said previously it's hardly been a day since the proposal has been out.

I assumed I'd be able to usable to use Canada - but if it's against your wishes I'll gladly drop it.

I was in school and work for a day - and what's this, a war started?
The last thing I want to see now is a childish battle between two factions trying to make THE community expansion. Hope this won't happen.

I will stay with Viregel. His civ choices are reasonable, and themes great too. I always saw this Community Expansion thing as a Firaxis-like compact expansion pack centered around themes with a grand vision. The "community" here IMHO refers to that this is made by some modders from the community, not by Firaxis. What if we started calling this Unofficial expansion or something like that, and give "Community" to TPangolins player-request pack.

Let us coexist in peace.

There are no hard feelings at all, just differences of opinions

In my opinion both expansions/whatever they are called should be put in their own SUBFORUMS to not create mess in the main C&C forum.

Also they are going to be big so this will be pretty much required...

I'm just going to step in here as a a mod quickly and tell everyone to calm down. There are some differences of opinion everywhere, and there's no reason for this to get heated.

Krajzen said:

In my opinion both expansions/whatever they are called should be put in their own SUBFORUMS to not create mess in the main C&C forum.

Also they are going to be big so this will be pretty much required...

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Subforums are decided on a case-by-case basis. Generally they need to be very active before one is even considered, and in the early days of these projects we're not going to give any subforums until the mods can prove that they have critical mass required to maintain one.

Um, yeah, what Pouakai said about no war. The fact is that no matter what you put in an expansion, it's going to upset someone. If TPangolin or anyone else wants to create his own expansion, I have no problem whatsoever with that. If you each to criticize what I have put down, I have no problem with that either. If you say that I'm not listening to the community, then I suggest you re-read what I and others have said here.

To start with, I proposed a list of nine fairly reasonable civs, along with a theme I thought was good. Some people wanted different civs, and I changed them accordingly. When I put the number up to 17, I got a lot of negative feedback, despite the fact that going above the average nine was supported before. In an attempt to shorten the civ list, I took advice from Pouakai and made it fit in a similar manner to the official expansions. However, this was further criticized, despite the fact that a lot of it was taken from the community. I can appreciate that a lot of people are annoyed by some of the choices, but I believe that I have tried to make the most diplomatic and synergetic choices possible. I came here with an idea, which was already somewhat developed. I argued the case for the theme, which some people are understanding as "just WWI". If you looked at the systems and civs involved, they are based around the First World War, but it gives a mix of before and after. I think that all are justified. So yes, disagree. But if you have come here to argue on false premises, then rethink what you're going to say to fit the truth. The fact is that it's not as simple as "ask the community what they want". People disagree. I have to take into consideration what most people want, and how well it's going to fit the theme. I think I have done that well, but I am still looking for feedback. Little of the information above is relevant in any way, as it suggests that the way I'm doing this is undemocratic in some ways.

I think that a lot of you need to appreciate that it's hard to come up with a democratic solution when there's so many people arguing - at some point, someone needs to draw a line in the sand and say "Look, there's no way in which I can improve this without more people getting annoyed".