Colonialist Legacies - the Community Expansion pack | Needs Feedback and Coding

ACivFan said:

Burma is quite relevant to the colonial theme of the project. It was the English' foothold in Southeast Asia, and the legacy of English colonization still lingers on.

It was the English who opened the floodgate for Indian Muslims (well Bangladeshi nowadays) into Burma. These people are also know as Rohingyas and are quite a buzz on many major newspapers after their clash with the Burmese Buddhists last year.

When talking about colonies, people tend to immediately think of Canada, Australia,... countries that started off as colonies. However, there were colonies that already existed as independent nations prior to being invaded by western powers, such as Burma and Vietnam. Their stories deserve to be told, too.

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Though not the Burma he's talking about. My Burma mod really represents the Pagan Empire. A Burma representing the Konbaung Dynasty should probably have different themes and unique elements.

I'm more than happy to switch around Mali, Switzerland and Burma. For something along the lines of Kongo, a Euro civ and Israel.

Thoughts?

Israel sure is popular, but the Fertile Crescent is so cramped as is. It's true that the Levant side is less crowded, but still there's barely any room. And about that little room left, I thought it were dedicated to Phoenicia?

TPangolin has already started this thread before I had any chance to explain this second expansion

I'm still interested in helping with Viregel's expansion as WWI scenario can be awesome and I have many ideas for it However me and TPangolin noticed few big philosophical differences between two 'factions' in his thread:

1) Viregel's original faction
- main theme is World War I
- scenarios are very important
- custom additional civilisations fit WWI: Belgium, Finland, Mexico, Argentina, Israel, Italy, Serbia
- few other details
- the expansion is concentrated mainly on Viregel's Vision

2) TPangolin and me:
- not interested in WWI as a main theme
- don't really care about scenarios
- already existing civilisations who Civ mainstream players demand
- the expansion is concentrated mainly on 'what players demand'

So, TPangolin decided to create separate group.

Now I'd like to not make this division create bad atmosphere/unhealthy rivalisation and explain all potential problems Generally speaking it seems these two expansions have entirely different philosophy and entirely different focus so there shouldn't be a problem - except from Colonisation and Exploration. Both expansions want to cover this theme so we should somehow solve this issue:
1st solution - each expansion creates its own Colonisation/Exploration ideas based on entirely different philosophy
2nd solution - both expansions create the same CE system and adopt in both mods They are different in all other aspects.



Also, I am currently working on My Own Coherent Plan for This Expansion but it will take me few days

EDIT

Currently I can already say that in my opinion this expansion should have Nazca instead of Mexico, possibly Mughals instead of Burma [although not sure here as I really like Burma - I could go with it but Mughals are also very sexy and India is so unfairly treated in C5 ] and definitely Hungary over Switzerland (I think Hungary is much better JFD's civilisation than Switzerland also, a lot of people would love to see Hungary included while nobody really waits on Switzerland...]

I've included Kongo as the 10th civ because I don't really want to exclude it

I've also updated the OP to make it look juicy and fresh

I have already important suggestion for both expansions: we should have separate subforums as these mods are going to be BIG - also to avoid making users here confused

You certainly have a knack for thread design.

Hey, you have to have one calling in life right?

Kerfuffle said:

In regards to colonies, by 'claims surrounding tiles' do you mean just a one tile radius like regular cities or perhaps a 2 tile radius?

I was thinking that colonies would instantly claim a 2 tile radius around it, but they cannot expand their borders. It'd still be possible to purchase land but at a far greater cost than normal; buildings can also be bought but are also more expensive (I was thinking they should feel like a risky financial investment but with quite the handsome pay-off in the end if you've played your cards right - EDIT: Possibly some buildings for colonies only that provide some hefty bonuses? Maybe they give yield bonuses to the new luxury and bonus resources? They'd be lost after they're puppeted or annexed though).

Though, on the other hand, I think it'd be a bit redundant considering Venice's UA. That and it'd be pretty frustrating to lose colonies to rebels after spending so much money on them (even if one knew the financial risks involved).

Oh well, just a thought to throw out there.

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This sounds a tad over complicated. An instant 2 tile radius would be scary and Shoshone-esque. Remember that this is aimed at being rather accessible.

I'm going to do some research and ask around what people would like to see in an expansion.

But as an exercise - I'd like for people to list what 3 things they desire in Civ V the most.

1) Alternate Leaders for existing civs.
2) A completely different approach to science. No "progress for progress sake."
3) Versailles

1) Alternate Leaders for existing civs.

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I like how you are pulling that off, slowly but surely.

2) A completely different approach to science. No "progress for progress sake."

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I'm in the same boat here. There must be some solutions around the place (i.e all civs gain points towards certain techs by doing certain things or giving each civ a free tech ala Civ IV).

3) Versailles

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I've listed this in the OP. Something that alters Diplo Relations or the World Congress perhaps (i.e if you build Versailles, banned luxuries still provide happiness). I'd like to have Wonders in this pack that present new mechanics instead of basic boosts. Sukitract's Abu Simbel is a great example.

TPangolin said:

I like how you are pulling that off, slowly but surely.

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Indeed

TPangolin said:

I'm in the same boat here. There must be some solutions around the place (i.e all civs gain points towards certain techs by doing certain things or giving each civ a free tech ala Civ IV).

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To be brutally honest, I would envy no modder to tackle the task of trying to rectify the flaws with science and its pace.

TPangolin said:

(i.e if you build Versailles, banned luxuries still provide happiness)

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That's a pretty hot idea, actually. Very evocative of what the Palace is a symbol of.

Oh, I am also interested in messing with science

Personally I was rather thinking about few alternate ways to achieve scientific victory.

1) Reach the Stars
a) Apollo Project
b) Build Spaceship Parts
c) Make the ship reach Alpha Centauri - space race includes spaceship flying towards target (you have to choose whether finish ship quickly or add more booster so it will fly faster)

Your civilisation has not only sent the test of time on Earth - it started the history of another new planet! By opening the new era in the history of mankind you guaranteed your people will be remembed forever among the countless stars.

2) Understand the Universe
a) Build Large Hadron Collider via world congress
b) Build Nuclear Fusion Reactor which requires special features/resources
c) Discover special tech: Theory of Everything.

Your civilisation has not only stood the test of time - it managed to understand it. You have created the greatest nation in the history, whose great minds managed to understand the Mind of God - you and your people will be forever remembered as the pinnacle of human genius! But now... Space Ocean calls us.

3) Achieve Transcendence
a) Create the Brain - Computer Interface [requires proper resolution in WC which is hated by conservative civs]
b) Create the Giant Quantum Computer [You have to build tile improvement Core surrounded by six Power Stations tile improvements while Luddists spawn and try to destroy it]
c) Finish the Singularity Project

While barbarians were beating over their naive concept of man, your people are the first nation in the history of this planet who created the new Man. You are the Prometheus and your people were Disciples whose minds allowed mankind on reaching something far greater - descendants of the mankind will forever remember the civilisation which has reached Technological Singularity.

4) Create Utopia
a) Nanotechnology - build Nano Tech Lab in all your cities.
b) Build Human 2.0 Project [very expensive and demanding]
c) World Congress Resolution - Immortality [hated by warmongering civs]

Your civilisation has managed to stand the test of time and defeat the most terrifying daemons of man - illness, death, violence and hatred - and is true savior of the entire mankind... No other nation was so noble, nobody before managed to destroy his vicious instincts. Your people will be remember forever as these who achieved victory over Evil.


'But as an exercise - I'd like for people to list what 3 things they desire in Civ V the most.'

1) More advanced AI in combat and diplomacy [alliances, more resolutions in World Congress]
2) Mid game: colonisation, exploration, Enlightment
3) JFD's Cultural Diversity Mod

Oh, some nice ideas there Krajzen Something to consider, definitely.

That sounds amazing to tinker around with! I really like Transcendence. (Also would make for an AMAZING scenario).

Krajzen said:

Currently I can already say that in my opinion this expansion should have Nazca instead of Mexico, possibly Mughals instead of Burma [although not sure here as I really like Burma - I could go with it but Mughals are also very sexy and India is so unfairly treated in C5 ] and definitely Hungary over Switzerland (I think Hungary is much better JFD's civilisation than Switzerland also, a lot of people would love to see Hungary included while nobody really waits on Switzerland...]

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Unfortunately Pouakai has requested that we not include the Nazca or the Mughals. It's unfortunate, but he has his reasons. Happy to switch out Switzerland for Hungary though

TPangolin said:

I'm more than happy to switch around Mali, Switzerland and Burma. For something along the lines of Kongo, a Euro civ and Israel.

Thoughts?

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Something like Kongo, Belgium, and Israel instead of Mali, Switzerland, and Burma would make a lot of thematic sense in terms of dealing with Colonialism.

Nazca is a cool civ, but its an indigenous civ that was gone long before the Colonial Era. Same with Hungary, cool civ, great mod, little to do with Colonialism.

turingmachine said:

Something like Kongo, Belgium, and Israel instead of Mali, Switzerland, and Burma would make a lot of thematic sense in terms of dealing with Colonialism.

Nazca is a cool civ, but its an indigenous civ that was gone long before the Colonial Era. Same with Hungary, cool civ, great mod, little to do with Colonialism.

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http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=523835&page=6

In THIS expansion you will have Kongo Belgium and Israel

See? Two expansions, everyone has his favourite


I love the choice of civs for this expansion <3 All these nations are my favourites (and apparently also TPangolin's ) just please change Switzerland in the OP to Hungary

Have you thought about adding in new units to the tech tree? That's one of the 3 things I'd want to add. Units between Crossbows and Gatlings, between Frigates and BShips, and maaaybe something between Knight and Cavalry. Plus something to fix the lancer weirdness, and in my dreams a light cavalry line. This works with the Enlightenment theme.

SuperWaffle247 said:

Have you thought about adding in new units to the tech tree? That's one of the 3 things I'd want to add. Units between Crossbows and Gatlings, between Frigates and BShips, and maaaybe something between Knight and Cavalry. Plus something to fix the lancer weirdness, and in my dreams a light cavalry line. This works with the Enlightenment theme.

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Currently I am planning changes to the technology tree and balancing that.

To be honest I think I have more ideas than we can include in this pack - for example 20 new units...

MY IDEAS

Galley - Trireme - Galleas - Caravel/Galleon - Frigate/Privateer
Musketman - Line Infantry - Rifleman
Trebuchet - Culverin - Field Artillery - Artillery
Lancer - Dragoon - Cavalry - Modern Cavalry
Crossbowman - Grenadier - Gatling Gun
Scout - Adventurer - Explorer - Sniper - Special Forces

Reasons for each unit:

Galley - some changes need to be made with early naval warfare to make early naval units more useful...
Galleon - I don't like the total domination of Navigation tech, Frigates should have alternatives
[generally speaking I think that ships should work as rock - paper - scissors, this seems to be necessary to make naval warfare - lacking terrain and cities - more tactical]

Line Infantry - XVIII century infantry
Culverin - Renaissance early cannon, 3d model of current Cannon
Field Artillery - XVIII/XIX century mobile cannon, 3d model of civil war cannons
Dragoon - I don't like that Knights are Knights for the entire renaissance while trebuchets, pikemen and swordsmen are upgraded soon...
Modern Cavalry - cavalry was widely used until WWII, I would like to put MC between cavalry and landships
Grenadier - I don't like that Crossbowmen are forced to fight with Musketmen/Cannons/Lancers till Gatling Gun, this is IMHO unfair. Also grenadiers are cool.
Adventurer [late medieval] and Explorer [industrial] are obvious exploration units which have many mods
Sniper - WWI/WWII far range unit
Special Forces - special unit with very awesome abilities and the finisher of the Recon line, maybe replacing completely useless Marine

Currently I am working on some kind of plan of Enlightment era techs [and my own General Coherent Vision of Expansion]

EDIT

Also JFD and TPangolin - what would you say about this Alternate Research System:

all techs are divided between categories: Army - Navy - Economy - Intellect
you choose which of these categories your civ focuses on currently ['Our Government invests in new minds seeking military solutions']
then random technology is chosen [based on probability, includes few factors like 'there is a chance for discovering gunpowder immediately in medieval but you will rather get construction']
(obviously 'random technology' means the closest techs from particular focus so you won't get nuclear physics in ancient era)
and starts researching... You don't see the progress of this technology once you choose Focus! This adds the element of risk - 'aww I still get no tech, maybe change focus? but what if some genius is researching very valuable technology and he just needs time?'
Alternative solution, if unability to see the tech progress would be frustrating - player can see PERCENTAGE progress of tech but he still doesn't know what exactly his Einstein is working on ['I am the king not nerd, what does it mean 'quantum conundrum' and can we used to get rid of these pesky Zulu?! Aww we will see, I trust my national nerds']


This is way more realistic - ruler of the empire doesn't say 'we need nukes - hey you scientists, let's research new revolutionary idea!' but 'we need Wunderwaffe, let's focus the empire on particular section of knowledge' and then he awaits on results of great minds working somewhere in universities and laboratories... Which of course need to be built and supported by the state.

Great ideas here. Although if we aren't adding major mechanics, then I feel it needs a policy of KISS (Keep it simple, stupid). How about a mechanic upon which when enter the Classical age, there is a pantheon-esque pop-up that appears. This pop-up will ask you if you wanted to focus on any of the 4 Groups and you will then research your selected groups techs x% faster. Perhaps this could feed into an Enlightenment mechanic, in which you get to pick another +x% focus upon doing something (like finishing a tree).

Also - picking in ideology is slightly boring as it is - to add in flavor, should we add in a "Great Ideologist" unit? It'd be essentially the same as a Great Prophet (expenditure wise) and would appear under the same circumstances that an Ideology usually would.

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For the units: We can ask Hulfgar if he can contribute likewise since a lot of his units already exist. In order to get a fully solid concept, we need to formulate ideas for the statistics of these units too (combat strength).

I also proposed a new technology called "Aquaculture".

Aquaculture would come directly after pottery and would take the place of Sailing in the tech tree.

Naval Line:

Aquaculture - Fishing Boats, Boats Improvement, Galley

Sailing (takes the place of Optics in the tech tree) - Trireme, Cargo Ship, Additional Trade Route

Optics (Comes after Sailing in this tech tree) - Lighthouse, Great Lighthouse, Galleass

Compass - Same as usual, but with the Galleon in the place of the Galleass.

Steam Power - Same as usual, but with Dreadnought (Frigate upgrade).

___

For Line Infantry:

Rifling - Line Infantry
Steam Power - Rifleman

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For the Field Artillery (I think that perhaps Culverin would over complicate things):

Metallurgy - Cannon
Military Science - Field Artillery

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I'd replace the Grenadier with the Volley gun since we already have a model for them:

Industrialization - Volley Guns
Steam Power - Gattling gun

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With that and fixing the Lancer line (which I'm not sure how to do), this seems like a pretty good idea to go off. Thoughts on this?

Overall though, Steam Power gets a really nice incentive: Ironclads, Dreadnoughts, Gattling Guns and Riflemen.

Also - this is good for glancing at the techtree if need be: http://well-of-souls.com/civ/images/bnw_tech2.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=524119



Also: few ideas for new Civilian Units.

1) You know what are the most frustrating moments in this game? When you:
- see enemy stealing your land with his settler and can't do anything to stop it
- see Great Prophet incoming and can't stop it from converting your holy city :I
- the same with Great Musician and cultural victory, or Great Scientist/Merchant/whatever

Assasin

- Assasins Guild is unlocked at Guilds technology. It can hire two Adepts, each of them produces 2 gold, 2 culture and increases the speed of gaining Assasin.
- Assasin is 'civilian' unit with 3 movement and +1 sight. It is invisible for civilisation until directly adjacent to its military units or in the sight range of other Assasin
- Can perform 'Assasination' action on all civilian/religious units/Great People without declaration of war.
- Assasin can try kill someone only once per X turns, it has percentage chance of success.
- If he is lucky, his target is destroyed [still without declaration of war!] and Assasin gains experience points which improve his abilities.
- When he is adjacent to military unit, this unit can easily kill him [...without declaration of war] and owner of dead agent receives huge diplomatic penalty...
- Assasins can kill other Assasins, more experienced have bigger chances of victory.

Extreme Version - Agent - REMAKED ESPIONAGE SYSTEM



Now few less revolutionary units.

2) War Engineer
- civilian unit
- faster than worker, ignores terrain cost, also works faster [but is more expensive]
- available since Engineering
- can: cut forests and jungles, create pontoon bridges, build roads, forts and canals.

3) Prospector
- 'military' unit
- can be created only by Colonies
- can mine gold/copper/silver/gems resources in the neutral terrain which provides big amounts of gold, works in the similar manner to Pouakai's Saami [resource disappears for some period of time]
- can fight and defend itself from barbarians

4) Hunter
- well, this is controversial...
- weak in normal fight
- bonus against barbarians
- barbarian units captured by Hunter provide big amounts of gold/are converted to Slaves :I
- forbidden since Radio or proper WC resolution