SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

military situation
 

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If we avoid CS and Theology, then Paper, Education, SciMeth, and PP are all safely ignored. I think we could happily bulb Astro (x2), Engineering, Gunpowder and Chemistry (x2). At that point, we could even bulb Military Science (x2 bulbs) to unlock Ships of the Line and Grenadiers, which are potentially a more powerful combo than Cannon from Steel.

The big cost here is that Nationalism requires Civil Service...

Corrected CC will be producing something like 32 base , ie, 96 /turn. We're now part way through GPerson #3? I'll guess 235/450 into it. The next 6 GPersons will cost 300+600+750+900+1050+1200 = 4,715, ie, 49 turns to Chemistry. From there it is 30 more turns to get another 2 GS to bulb Military Science, presumably whilst teching Steel or whatever, but by that stage hopefully things are all sewn up.

I only see 4 GS bulbs in your above plan to get chemistry so to Chemistry we only need 215+600+750+900 or 2465/96 = 26 turns

can you draft grenadiers? apparently not.
 
I only see 4 GS bulbs in your above plan to get chemistry so to Chemistry we only need 215+600+750+900 or 2465/96 = 26 turns
Astro x2, Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry x2 = 6.
 
Ah, sorry

I think we could probably get away with 1 on astro, 1 engineering, 1 gunpowder, 1 chemistry and tech the remainder

we would also need feudalism, guilds, compass (trade?), machinery (trade?), optics
 
Ah, sorry

I think we could probably get away with 1 on astro, 1 engineering, 1 gunpowder, 1 chemistry and tech the remainder

we would also need feudalism, guilds, compass (trade?), machinery (trade?), optics
Quite correct.
Quoting myself here:
Possible tech path from here: Compass (trade?) -> Optics (tr?) -> Machinery (tr?) -> Astro (2x bulb) -> Feudalism (tr?)-> Guilds (tr?) -> Engineering (bulb) -> Gunpowder (bulb) -> Chemistry (2x bulb) -> STOP! Or continue on to CS->Nationalism or Steel or Military Science (2x bulb).

Nationalism could be moved up the list if we insert CS in the queue after Gunpowder, since Chemistry is still a higher priority (for the GS) than Paper.
Feudalism -> Guilds could be inserted anywhere at all. Likely during the periods where the required GSs aren't yet available.
 
Astronomy is a good tech to double bulb, as researching it naturally does not get Prereq Tech benefits, whereas something like Chemistry does. So, we could certainly save on 1 GS by only single bulbing Chemistry. Of course, if our empire is really enormous and we have lots of population then we might find that Astro is quite fast with just one bulb also.

At the end of the day, the only techs we actually research the old fashioned way (old fashioned = not bulb, and could include trading) are:
Compass
Machinery
Optics
Astronomy, Remainder of
Feudalism
Guilds
Chemistry, Remainder of
Civil Service
Nationalism
 
sorry aj for my poor reading of your posts. This is what I get for trying to play the test game, chat with mabraham and read your posts all at the same time.

I've never bulbed engineering or gunpowder with GS so it took me a while to understand too.

We've had a crash in the game, so mabraham uploaded and contacted AlanH. Luckily he had a save just a few moves before it crashed. And a record what we he did on the chat.

If I understand things correctly. We need to have guilds before we can research or bulb gunpowder. If we research/bulb civil service, paper, education we would be able to research gunpowder without guilds, but we would bulb printing press instead of chemistry after we finished gunpowder.

So to use liberalism for Steel we would need to trade/tech civil service, paper and education to unlock liberalism. It might very well be faster to tech steel directly. Although trading for civil service and paper would likely be possible if we left them for last. And a single bulb of education would get us close to liberalism.
 
OK I followed the PPP. We only got +3 from trading Drama to Joao, and +2 from Taoism, so we will need both of our planned +1 from further Taoism, and resource trades.

I moved on Hastings, which had a trade route such that it could build a swordsman, suprisingly. Vicky moved an archer and an axe to approximately the ivory site while I was moving on Hastings. Hopefully she's settling down there, and on the right tile.

Unfortunately, my Civ crashed part-way through the attack on Hastings T201. Fortunately I'd saved immediately before the revolt, revolted, upgraded a cat, lost it at 53%, lost the other 51% cat, and won with an axeman before the crash. I've PMed AlanH and uploaded that latest saved game to document the episode, together with the log of the IM chat I was having with bcool through this time, and hopefully I get a green light to continue by replaying those steps exactly. We are well on track to take Hastings despite the bad luck. Saved game here http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm13/Gypsy_Kings_SG013_AD0415_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

I still have the save for the rest of my turn set, of course.

Our score graph looks horrible, with a turn of revolt and our last round of whipping happening :)
 
Thanks for the tech discussion. The way things look, Chemistry for workshop-:hammers: and frigates, together with Musketeers and Trebs may well be enough for this game. Wanting Paper-Edu-Lib->Steel is only really needed for cannons (and maybe drydocks), and we can judge in 20 turns whether we think they're required - probably not.
 
Unfortunately, my Civ crashed part-way through the attack on Hastings T201. Fortunately I'd saved immediately before the revolt, revolted, upgraded a cat, lost it at 53%, lost the other 51% cat, and won with an axeman before the crash. I've PMed AlanH and uploaded that latest saved game to document the episode, together with the log of the IM chat I was having with bcool through this time, and hopefully I get a green light to continue by replaying those steps exactly. We are well on track to take Hastings despite the bad luck. Saved game here http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm13/Gypsy_Kings_SG013_AD0415_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

AlanH has been back in touch. I'm asked to "carry on from the last save, replaying as accurately as possible".

I plan to continue my turn set in the morning, in about 9-10 hours from now.
 
Took a quick look at the save, and it looks good.
I had a question about Salaminia II built in GH on T201. It is exploring the small islands to the west of Golden Hills, but I think Cathy would come from the NW through the deer island chain if she was coming. Maybe it can divert that way as soon as possible.
 
I haven't looked at the save yet, been a bit under the weather.

Welcome back aj!
 
Took a quick look at the save, and it looks good.
I had a question about Salaminia II built in GH on T201. It is exploring the small islands to the west of Golden Hills, but I think Cathy would come from the NW through the deer island chain if she was coming. Maybe it can divert that way as soon as possible.

Because we met WvO coming through the island chain west of GH, I expect that it does connect and will prove to be a shorter path to an intercept point. There's little value in getting warning of an invasion once she's got to about the deer. However warning from about the bifurcation point of the two routes (on the NE corner of the Cathy-WvO land mass) is early enough to be useful, and I think the southern route is slightly better because of this.
 
Everything had gone well, except that on the turn we were due to get our next +1 diplo bonus (with +1 from resource trades not yet arrived), WvO switched to his favourite civic, Free Religion. That cancelled the existing +2 diplo from Taoism and left us out in the cold. We forgot that he had the Shwedagon Paya and could do this. Save is uploaded, but I still have it for the rest of my turn set (to T213) http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm13/Gypsy_Kings_SG013_AD0520_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Vicky is dead for no further losses, and we kept Canterbury. I have maneuvered a galley and trireme over near the east of England so we can keep using some of these units for something, like crushing Hittite. Hitting Joao may be an option when we rebuild some siege out of PC. We have bored galleys near PC.

We have six trade routes to Joao, who lives south of England.

I speculate that Izzy lives south of us, since she's near enough to Ragnar for them to go to war, and Joao didn't meet her on his way to Ragnar across southern islands. J still doesn't know anybody apart from R or us.

There's no trireme in the west of the empire, but I have a galley lurking in CC.

Salaminia II is off to see what's happening in Moscow.

English borders are all popped (except for Canterbury) and the worker spam is going nicely.

The cow pasture will be ready for Hastings first growth, and the granary will be chopped before the food box is half full. Further progress is already occurring on the marble quarry and some Gmines. I plan to send the two workers on forests north of Hastings to London and Nottingham to chop stuff out. York's chopping worker will chop the spice next.

London didn't have a lighthouse, nor one on the plan, so I inserted it after the courthouse, working a mine. We could give York's cows to London, please advise.

CC is running eight scientists losing food, as planned.

FH has the Corn Farm and thinks corn is still tasty.

SR is working a Gworkshop because this optimizes finishing the granary just before the food box is half full at size 4.

I need tech path advice now that we have very little chance of trading for WvO's techs. We have most of Feudalism done, and half of Compass, and a bunch of :gold: in the kitty. We have a GScientist cooling his heels next to CC, and another due in 2 turns.

We should cancel the stone deal to WvO, but leave him the iron, because we're building some warriors, and will build some more, perhaps. Happiness is flooding everywhere, even after I sold the furs for 2:gold: to Izzy.

I think we have to cut our losses and tech Compass-Mach-Optics the hard way. Don't finish Feudalism, so that Cathy and WvO don't trade it.

Turn log, lots of comments made as I thought of them at the time.
Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 198/750 (370 AD) [19-May-2011 11:25:13]
Player Comment got +3 for gifting drama
Research begun: Feudalism (5 Turns)
Tech traded to Ragnar (Vikings): Monotheism
Marbled Clam begins: Warrior (4 turns)
Marbled Clam begins: Warrior (4 turns)
Marbled Clam begins: Theatre (11 turns)
Bronzed Fish begins: Worker (10 turns)
Bronzed Fish begins: Work Boat (9 turns)
Bronzed Fish begins: Theatre (15 turns)
Furry Crabs begins: Warrior (8 turns)
Golden Hills begins: Work Boat (3 turns)
Golden Hills begins: Archer (7 turns)
Golden Hills begins: Galley (19 turns)
London begins: Worker (9 turns)
La Couronne (Trireme) promoted: Medic I
Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) promoted: Combat I
100% Research: 0 per turn
0% Culture: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 0 per turn
0% Gold: 4 per turn, 566 in the bank

After End Turn:
Taoism has spread: Bronzed Fish

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Napoleon (France) from 'no State Religion' to 'Taoism'
Attitude Change: Victoria (England) towards Napoleon (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Catherine (Russia) towards Napoleon (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Ragnar(Vikings) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 199/750 (385 AD) [19-May-2011 11:55:49]
Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Isabella (Spain) asks Napoleon (France) to stop trading with Ragnar (Vikings); Napoleon REFUSES.
100% Research: 275 per turn
0% Culture: 70 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -108 per turn, 570 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Paired Clams
The whip was applied in Golden Hills
Clam Chowder grows to size 11
Fish Hills grows to size 4
Stone Mountain grows to size 4
Paired Clams grows to size 5
Golden Hills finishes: Trireme

Turn 200/750 (400 AD) [19-May-2011 12:22:55]
A Pasture was built near Marbled Clam
London begins: Granary (9 turns)
Player Comment vicky has send archer and axe down south of york, perhaps settling down there?
Player Comment vicky built sword in hastings, so it must have a route somehow
Player Comment WvO is doing compass, as expected, unfortunately
Axeman 1 (Fish Hills) promoted: Shock
100% Research: 260 per turn
0% Culture: 70 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -103 per turn, 462 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Fish Hills
The whip was applied in Stone Mountain
The whip was applied in Paired Clams
The whip was applied in Bronzed Fish
The whip was applied in Spicy Rice
The whip was applied in London
Fish Hills finishes: Courthouse
Stone Mountain finishes: Trireme
Paired Clams finishes: Courthouse
Bronzed Fish finishes: Worker
Golden Hills grows to size 5
Golden Hills finishes: Work Boat
Spicy Rice finishes: Taoist Missionary

Turn 201/750 (415 AD) [19-May-2011 12:44:20]
Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) promoted: City Raider I
While attacking in English territory at Hastings, Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) loses to English Archer (1.29/3) (Prob Victory: 52.8%)
While attacking in English territory at Hastings, Catapult 6 (London) loses to English Axeman (3.65/5) (Prob Victory: 51.1%)
While attacking in English territory at Hastings, Swordsman (1.44/6) defeats English Axeman (Prob Victory: 83.6%)

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 201/750 (415 AD) [20-May-2011 09:41:13]
Player Comment we have a route in Hastings also... at least the game is fair
London begins: Worker (1 turns)
100% Research: 0 per turn
0% Culture: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 0 per turn
0% Gold: 6 per turn, 409 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Napoleon(France) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'
Civics Change: Napoleon(France) from 'Paganism' to 'Pacifism'

Turn 202/750 (430 AD) [20-May-2011 09:43:12]
Swordsman promoted: City Raider III
Swordsman promoted: City Raider III
100% Research: 0 per turn
0% Culture: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 0 per turn
0% Gold: 6 per turn, 415 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Fish Hills
Whip anger has decreased in Golden Hills

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Catherine (Russia) towards Willem van Oranje (Netherlands), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 203/750 (445 AD) [20-May-2011 09:55:03]
Player Comment found joao south of England
Player Comment canterbury's border popped, so she must have had an early spread of Christianity
0% Research: 134 per turn
0% Culture: 96 per turn
0% Espionage: 14 per turn
100% Gold: 39 per turn, 421 in the bank

After End Turn:
Clam Chowder finishes: Buddhist Monastery
Marbled Clam grows to size 7
Bronzed Fish's borders expand
Furry Crabs grows to size 4
Furry Crabs finishes: Courthouse
Golden Hills's borders expand
London's borders expand
London finishes: Worker
York finishes: Lighthouse

Other Player Actions:
Ragnar (Vikings) and Isabella (Spain) have signed a peace treaty
Attitude Change: Ragnar (Vikings) towards Isabella (Spain), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella (Spain) towards Ragnar (Vikings), from 'Furious' to 'Cautious'

Turn 204/750 (460 AD) [20-May-2011 10:29:47]
A Fishing Boats was built near Golden Hills
York begins: Courthouse (90 turns)
Player Comment excellent, the granary build in London syncs with half-full food box!
Player Comment still no trade routes from Joao :-(
Player Comment C'bury onlt has a sword defending, so will take it next turn with pair axe and cat, with worker too
Player Comment we are now Cathy's worst enemy, I think
Player Comment Gperson due next turn 80% sci 12% merch 7% artist 1% eng
Player Comment yes we are Cathy's worst enemy
Player Comment she has Theol, so may build AP (but it is not the large build in Novgorod)
0% Research: 128 per turn
0% Culture: 87 per turn
0% Espionage: 16 per turn
100% Gold: 58 per turn, 460 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Furry Crabs
Tycho Brahe (Great Scientist) born in Clam Chowder
Fish Hills grows to size 3
Stone Mountain grows to size 3
Paired Clams grows to size 4
Paired Clams finishes: Work Boat
Golden Hills finishes: Archer
London finishes: Granary
Nottingham's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'

Turn 205/750 (475 AD) [20-May-2011 10:59:13]
Player Comment joao built HG
Taoism has spread: Golden Hills
Player Comment vicky has another sword in C'bury, which is Christian... will bomb it down and bring up the reinforcements. Still no second city for V
Player Comment axe and archer of V are incoming, NE of ivory
Player Comment vicky whipped that sword
A Workshop was built near Spicy Rice
Player Comment good, six trade routes from Joao now, still 6 internal
Player Comment wvo teching optics
Player Comment the fact that joao has met ragnar but nobody else, and izzy is near ragnar suggests izzy is south of us
0% Research: 124 per turn
0% Culture: 84 per turn
0% Espionage: 16 per turn
100% Gold: 64 per turn, 518 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paired Clams's borders expand
Bronzed Fish grows to size 4
Golden Hills grows to size 6
Spicy Rice grows to size 3
London finishes: Courthouse
York's borders expand

Turn 206/750 (490 AD) [20-May-2011 11:17:35]
London begins: Lighthouse (45 turns)
Player Comment hmm I didn't realise London didn't have a lighthouse... build one now after courthouse, then theatre
London begins: Theatre (75 turns)
London begins: Lighthouse (45 turns)
Player Comment there's time for that
0% Research: 120 per turn
0% Culture: 80 per turn
0% Espionage: 18 per turn
100% Gold: 79 per turn, 582 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Stone Mountain
Fish Hills grows to size 4
Bronzed Fish finishes: Work Boat
London grows to size 4
Hastings's borders expand

Turn 207/750 (505 AD) [20-May-2011 11:29:36]
A Fishing Boats was built near Hastings
Player Comment the spamalopagus strikes.. Taoism spreads in Moscow and Novgorod!
Player Comment still no resource +1
Research begun: Civil Service (13 Turns)
Research begun: Compass (7 Turns)
Research begun: Compass (3 Turns)
Research begun: Machinery (4 Turns)
Research begun: Compass (4 Turns)
Research begun: Optics (4 Turns)
Research begun: Compass (3 Turns)
Player Comment not sure if I should gift Cathy a spare crab
100% Research: 365 per turn
0% Culture: 76 per turn
0% Espionage: 18 per turn
0% Gold: -145 per turn, 661 in the bank

After End Turn:
Stone Mountain grows to size 4
Furry Crabs grows to size 5

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) from 'Taoism' to 'no State Religion'
Attitude Change: Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) towards Catherine (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella (Spain) towards Willem van Oranje (Netherlands), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Willem van Oranje(Netherlands) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Free Religion'

Turn 208/750 (520 AD) [20-May-2011 11:45:00]
Player Comment oh bugger... WvO went Free Religion
Player Comment he had Shwedagon Paya
Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in English territory at Canterbury, Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) (0.75/5) defeats English Swordsman (Prob Victory: 79.7%)
While attacking in English territory at Canterbury, Swordsman (3.72/6) defeats English Swordsman (Prob Victory: 94.8%)
Christianity has been removed: Canterbury (English Empire)
Christianity has spread: Canterbury
Captured Canterbury (Victoria)
English Empire has been eliminated
Player Comment RIP Vicky
Canterbury begins: Granary (91 turns)
Player Comment Canterbury has a Military Instructor, for what little that is worth


Session upload log
Spoiler :
Turn 201, 415 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon adopts Caste System!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon adopts Pacifism!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) (5.00) vs Victoria's Archer (5.37)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Combat Odds: 52.8%
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 5 (Paired Clams) is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Archer has defeated Napoleon's Catapult 5 (Paired Clams)!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 6 (London) (5.00) vs Victoria's Axeman (6.25)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Combat Odds: 51.1%
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 6 (London) is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Axeman is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 6 (London) is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 6 (London) is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 6 (London) is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 6 (London) is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Axeman has defeated Napoleon's Catapult 6 (London)!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman (6.00) vs Victoria's Axeman (4.89)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Combat Odds: 83.6%
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Axeman is hit for 20 (53/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Axeman is hit for 20 (33/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Axeman is hit for 20 (13/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman has defeated Victoria's Axeman!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 1 (Fish Hills) (5.50) vs Victoria's Swordsman (3.05)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Combat Odds: 97.1%
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (57/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (32/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 1 (Fish Hills) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (7/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 1 (Fish Hills) has defeated Victoria's Swordsman!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman (5.46) vs Victoria's Spearman (2.68)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Spearman is hit for 27 (51/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Spearman is hit for 27 (24/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Spearman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman has defeated Victoria's Spearman!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman (3.84) vs Victoria's Archer (1.85)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Combat Odds: 97.6%
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 15 (49/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 15 (34/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Archer is hit for 25 (18/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 15 (19/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 15 (4/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Victoria's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 201, 415 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman has defeated Victoria's Archer!
Turn 201, 415 AD: You have captured Hastings!!!
Turn 201, 415 AD: Silver Lode has been founded.
Turn 201, 415 AD: Logging Game to File: Napoleon.txt
Turn 201, 415 AD: we have a route in Hastings also... at least the game is fair
Turn 201, 415 AD: The Sistine Chapel has been built in a far away land!

Turn 202, 430 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 202, 430 AD: Albert Einstein (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 203, 445 AD: found joao south of England
Turn 203, 445 AD: canterbury's border popped, so she must have had an early spread of Christianity
Turn 203, 445 AD: You have constructed a Buddhist Monastery in Clam Chowder. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 203, 445 AD: The borders of Bronzed Fish have expanded!
Turn 203, 445 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in Furry Crabs. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 203, 445 AD: The borders of Golden Hills have expanded!
Turn 203, 445 AD: The borders of London have expanded!
Turn 203, 445 AD: You have trained a Worker in London. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 203, 445 AD: Ragnar has made peace with Isabella!

Turn 204, 460 AD: excellent, the granary build in London syncs with half-full food box!
Turn 204, 460 AD: still no trade routes from Joao :-(
Turn 204, 460 AD: C'bury onlt has a sword defending, so will take it next turn with pair axe and cat, with worker too
Turn 204, 460 AD: we are now Cathy's worst enemy, I think
Turn 204, 460 AD: Gperson due next turn 80% sci 12% merch 7% artist 1% eng
Turn 204, 460 AD: yes we are Cathy's worst enemy
Turn 204, 460 AD: she has Theol, so may build AP (but it is not the large build in Novgorod)
Turn 204, 460 AD: Tycho Brahe (Great Scientist) has been born in Clam Chowder (Napoleon)!
Turn 204, 460 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Paired Clams. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 204, 460 AD: You have trained a Archer in Golden Hills. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 204, 460 AD: You have constructed a Granary in London. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 204, 460 AD: The borders of Nottingham have expanded!
Turn 204, 460 AD: The Hanging Gardens has been built in a far away land!
Turn 204, 460 AD: Isabella adopts Caste System!

Turn 205, 475 AD: joao built HG
Turn 205, 475 AD: Taoism has spread in Golden Hills.
Turn 205, 475 AD: vicky has another sword in C'bury, which is Christian... will bomb it down and bring up the reinforcements. Still no second city for V
Turn 205, 475 AD: axe and archer of V are incoming, NE of ivory
Turn 205, 475 AD: vicky whipped that sword
Turn 205, 475 AD: good, six trade routes from Joao now, still 6 internal
Turn 205, 475 AD: wvo teching optics
Turn 205, 475 AD: the fact that joao has met ragnar but nobody else, and izzy is near ragnar suggests izzy is south of us
Turn 205, 475 AD: The borders of Paired Clams have expanded!
Turn 205, 475 AD: The borders of York have expanded!

Turn 206, 490 AD: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 206, 490 AD: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 206, 490 AD: marble trade
Turn 206, 490 AD: Bronzed Fish has grown to size 4.
Turn 206, 490 AD: Golden Hills has grown to size 6.
Turn 206, 490 AD: Spicy Rice has grown to size 3.
Turn 206, 490 AD: Isabella has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 206, 490 AD: The borders of Hastings are about to expand.
Turn 206, 490 AD: Your Catapult 4 (Paired Clams) has reduced the defenses of Canterbury to 4%!
Turn 206, 490 AD: marble trade
Turn 206, 490 AD: Fish Hills will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 206, 490 AD: London will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 206, 490 AD: hmm I didn't realise London didn't have a lighthouse... build one now after courthouse, then theatre
Turn 206, 490 AD: there's time for that
Turn 206, 490 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Bronzed Fish. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 206, 490 AD: The borders of Hastings have expanded!
Turn 206, 490 AD: Taoism has spread in Novgorod.
Turn 206, 490 AD: Taoism has spread in Moscow.
Turn 206, 490 AD: Jeanne d'Arc (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 207, 505 AD: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 207, 505 AD: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 207, 505 AD: turn off feudalism
Turn 207, 505 AD: marble trade
Turn 207, 505 AD: Fish Hills has grown to size 4.
Turn 207, 505 AD: London has grown to size 4.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Ragnar has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Victoria is the worst enemy of Ragnar.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Willem van Oranje will trade Pig
Turn 207, 505 AD: the spamalopagus strikes.. Taoism spreads in Moscow and Novgorod!
Turn 207, 505 AD: Your Catapult 4 (Paired Clams) has reduced the defenses of Canterbury to 0%!
Turn 207, 505 AD: marble trade
Turn 207, 505 AD: Stone Mountain will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Furry Crabs will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 207, 505 AD: still no resource +1
Turn 207, 505 AD: not sure if I should gift Cathy a spare crab
Turn 207, 505 AD: Willem van Oranje adopts Free Religion!

Turn 208, 520 AD: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 208, 520 AD: marble trade
Turn 208, 520 AD: Stone Mountain has grown to size 4.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Furry Crabs has grown to size 5.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Catherine has 160 gold available for trade.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Joao II has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Willem van Oranje has 340 gold available for trade.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Willem van Oranje won't trade Pig
Turn 208, 520 AD: oh bugger... WvO went Free Religion
Turn 208, 520 AD: he had Shwedagon Paya
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) (5.50) vs Victoria's Swordsman (4.00)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 208, 520 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) has defeated Victoria's Swordsman!
Turn 208, 520 AD: Your Axeman 3 (Paired Clams) has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman (5.52) vs Victoria's Swordsman (3.63)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Combat Odds: 94.8%
Turn 208, 520 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: (City Attack: -85%)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 15 (77/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 15 (62/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Victoria's Swordsman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 208, 520 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman has defeated Victoria's Swordsman!
Turn 208, 520 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 208, 520 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 208, 520 AD: You have captured Canterbury!!!
Turn 208, 520 AD: The English Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 208, 520 AD: RIP Vicky
Turn 208, 520 AD: Canterbury has a Military Instructor, for what little that is worth
 
Willem
Must be Cautious or better to diplomatically convert his religion, Pleased or better for civics. So, he's a pretty easy guy to please.

This might still let us trade with him, but I don't have much time to consider options tonight.
 
Willem

This might still let us trade with him, but I don't have much time to consider options tonight.

Technically, it's a civic change that we'd require, and a civic change away from his favourite civic. I see various options

  1. tech hard ourselves, and when our EPs on Cathy get high enough (must check when that will be - perhaps a turn of 100%:espionage: will pay dividends here) we judge when she might learn something that will let us trade something with either/both of them
  2. ask nicely for WvO to change civics while teching as best we can
  3. use espionage on WvO to change back to a civic where he'll still have his old state religion
  4. hit Willem and extort tech for peace, possibly with option 1
  5. hit Cathy as well as option 2
  6. options 1 and 3 together
 
The "Influence Civics" spy mission has a cost of 864 of WvO. Actual costs once the spy has fortified will be more like 4-500:espionage:. So about two turns of 100%:espionage: could pay off in quite a few turns' worth of :science:, provided we can find a sensible reason to wait the turns to build a spy (preferably two) and send him over and wait for him to fortify. We can do this as a side option to the main plan - we don't have to commit the EPs until the spy has sat there for three or so turns.

Later, this will make sabotaging city defenses cheaper, because espionage gets cheaper the more you've actually used it. It's never going to be huge for us, however - our palace is too far from anything relevant, and we don't have a relevant holy city.

The problem is that we have to put about 10+ turns of 0% tech on something, and we'd really rather have caravels to send the spies on in the first place... Gift him a city on that crab near CC? Or even SM?
 
Great ideas, mabraham.

The "Influence Civics" spy mission has a cost of 864 of WvO. Actual costs once the spy has fortified will be more like 4-500. So about two turns of 100% could pay off in quite a few turns' worth of , provided we can find a sensible reason to wait the turns to build a spy (preferably two) and send him over and wait for him to fortify. We can do this as a side option to the main plan - we don't have to commit the EPs until the spy has sat there for three or so turns.

Later, this will make sabotaging city defenses cheaper, because espionage gets cheaper the more you've actually used it. It's never going to be huge for us, however - our palace is too far from anything relevant, and we don't have a relevant holy city.

The problem is that we have to put about 10+ turns of 0% tech on something, and we'd really rather have caravels to send the spies on in the first place... Gift him a city on that crab near CC? Or even SM?

We might be able to gift him a city, but since he has more than 3 cities he would only accept a city that is w/i 9.5 tiles of one of his other cities. By the time we have the settler ready, we might be able to give him a city on those small islands west of GH. The advantage of gifting him a city would be we get a massive cultural bonus to the spy mission cost. This would rapidly fade since he is creative and putting his own culture into the city, but for the first few turns we would get ~50% discount due to culture.

I suspect if we went this route we could pick up the espionage we need on him by running a few spy specialists (which are better than scientists under representation 4 espionage and 4 science each vs. 6 science) in the time it would take us to organize a settler to gift him the city.

However by the time we organize all this I'm not sure we will have wanted to delay teching as much as we would have to.

I suspect the spy is more likely to succeed in switching him from his favorite civic. I'm not sure but I don't think we can ask him nicely to switch away from his favorite civic.

I would do the following
1) tech hard ourselves
2) build up espionage on Willem using spy specialists (more efficient that using the slider)
3) build a settler with the intention of settling a crappy city and giving it to Willem as close to us as possible but still within 9.5 tiles of one of Willem's cities
4) build a spy and have him wait where we plan to build the city ~4 turns before the city is planned to be founded if possible
----the spy will get his stationary spy bonus even though there wasn't a city there while he waited
5) Use the accumulated espionage to either switch Willem's civic or even steal a tech from him we might want.

I'm guessing we are going to have to tech machinery then engineering while we build up and set up Willem's espionage city. I'm assuming Willem is beelining astronomy so the tech trading/stealing opportunities might be available still with him.

We could also do the same to Cathy, but she is farther away so it would cost more and take longer to set her up in a similar fashion. She has a few techs we would want to steal later in the game. Like civil service.

Re: wars

I think we can't consider hitting Cathy any time soon since she has longbows now.

We could consider hitting Willem, but by the time we are close enough to hit him he could easily have either astronomy or feudalism or both. Especially if we wait and build a few catapults which would likely be necessary.

We could consider hitting Joao however. We should cancel our copper trade with him I think we were the only reason he has metal. Although that might have changed recently. We have experienced units near him, and could easily take his capital at least. Might be a better target than Hittite. We could even just look for worker raid opportunities against him.
 
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