End of Empires - N3S III

Masada, the federalist ideas (which you recommended) would to some degree have prevented integration.
 
Well you were last update since you both wanted a pice of the biggest nation :p
 
Yes but integration is inevitable, just take the legal side of things.

If you had two systems so radically different they couldnt deal with each other, there is no way the law would have functioned, if both systems ran completely against each other then there would be anarchy.

How does one deal with citizens of half Arkage/half Seshweay descent, which system does one fall under there would be dialogue. Take transfer of legal title for another, that would have to be reconciled you could not have two different definitions of property transfer that would lead to absolutely ridiculious results, impossible even. 500 years is a long time, the system could not have lasted that long if it had been so completely different it couldnt function together. The Senate obviously had both groups in it, so if a law was made it would have had to been applied equally at a national level that would have neccesitated some integration of legal systems so you end up with a similar result and not something so radically different as to make the system impossible to work. Trade laws would be another thing that would need to have been uniform, or at least similar enough to deal with for 500 years, if they wern't they how would different merchants work under a duel system how would the system not discriminate against one race at the profit of another, sure it would have happened but neither side is going to let that happen for a long period, and if they competed to much and ended up with completely discriminatory limits on both that would be a silly result and against the best interests of both parties.

Also everyone note i relaxed the Seshweays hatred of the Arkage, they are actually the first non-Seshweay the Seshweay believe are human ;)
 
Just because legal integration occurs (and I disagree that it would) does not mean that integration occurs on a lower level. Even in MODERN England, there are significiant linguistic diffrences, which in Medieval times were even worse. These would remain, hampering integration.

(More points soon...)
 
Yes but of course, it would have had to if you run two legal systems that cannot agree on anything the system wont work at all.

Economically the system would have had to converge otherwise you could not deal with either group simple. Trade practicces might not be the same but they must have been similar enough to be able to move between both. Take it from a legal point of view if the trade practices were not similar and made trade difficult, well you see the problem after 500 years the difficulties would have been removed steadily by succesive generations of merchants who are just not interested in pissing around with a mass of red tape.

Im not saying we would have been the same far from it, but there would have had to have been common ground and some degree of movement between the parties. And if we hadnt run a Federal system good luck with keeping the Empire going for even half the time we managed, if you had tried to impose a King on Seshweay or other profoundly non-Republican ideas on the Seshweay you would have had civil war.
 
Yes but of course, it would have had to if you run two legal systems that cannot agree on anything the system wont work at all.

Economically the system would have had to converge otherwise you could not deal with either group simple. Trade practicces might not be the same but they must have been similar enough to be able to move between both. Take it from a legal point of view if the trade practices were no similar and made trade difficult, well you see the problem after 500 years the difficulties would have been removed steadily by succesive generations of merchants who are just not interested in pissing around with a mass of red tape.

Now I think about it, why would any of this not work? Seshweay and Arkage as seperate states worked, and there is no reason why the government would simplify things just for the sake of merchants.

Legal and cultural integration aren't the same thing anyway.
 
Also everyone note i relaxed the Seshweays hatred of the Arkage, they are actually the first non-Seshweay the Seshweay believe are human ;)

Relaxed? :lol: that "religion" was destoryed in the first update.. I doubt there is anything left of that now.
 
From the update "Instead, the cities rose, with walls thick and high, and temples to the Ancestors towering over them all." I doubt just because I let the Arkage be human the floodgates have opened, I haven’t released any religious edicts to that effect. I issued an edict as the Unitary Prime the head of the Ancestor Unity Religion last update, and it hasn’t ended the Satarai are still enemy number 1 although I’m guessing they are probably painted as somewhat dim horse-animals-with faces by now… :p
 
havn't 1000 years passed since that nation collapsed?
 
That was in this update just passed, The Empire of Sesh had "the cities rose, with walls thick and high, and temples to the Ancestors towering over them all." The Empire only collapsed about a hundred years ago so i doubt my religion spontaneously died out... the Exiled States are Seshweay and lived the whole time even if it died in the Empire its still in the Exiled States

EDIT: Government wouldn’t have to, trade practices are normally made up by merchants the state tends to just go in after the fact and codify the practice. Besides my system is Common Law based, it adopts precedent every individual ruling would add to the body of law in general so every individual act of trade would build up in the system. For a real world example look at Chancellery Law and Common Law both had radically different sources, the first was brought over the William the Conquer and was recognizably French in every sense of the word, Common Law was natively English (or whatever English was back then :p) from 1066 onwards they steadily converged and eventually we now end up with at least in common law states Equity and Common Law decisions in the same system. It was an inherently ridiculous system before they converged, the King and Parliament had duels over which was superior, the King naturally claimed that his Chancellery Law was and the Parliament claimed that Common Law was... a heck of a lot of problems for England developed because the two separate entities with significant power just had different legal systems and traditions to uphold.

Think of it carefully if you had two radically different systems I’ll use a specific example. Assume that Arkage property passes through the son (which I’m pretty sure it does) and compare that to the Seshweay system of having land pass to whoever the hell the parents want of the siblings. How does one deal with a situation where an Arkage man married a Seshweay women (don’t say its impossible, because the Emperor’s had both bloods, I doubt they allowed either group to persecute those who made the same choices the Emperors must have had a habit of doing it to mollify the two different groups being to Arkage or Seshweay would be a recipe for civil war.). Which system gains precedence? Since neither system can have legal authority over the other, for the simple fact that if it did you guarantee the other group would be pissed beyond belief. You have a quandary which body of law do you use in this case? You could flip a coin but bring chance like that into a legal dispute and you can guarantee the opposing parties will kill each other, family disputes can get rather nasty. You can just arbitrarily decide to make the Seshweay women obey the Arkage system, because Seshweay law affords equal rights under family law (don’t know about the Arkage system but having to give up rights to marry would seem to me to a fundamentally flawed outcome). Extrapolate the result of having two radically different system that were irreconcilable for just the marriage example, and you would see that there had to have been a way of reconciling the differences between the two, or a Federal system of law which was a mix, otherwise inter-racial dealings would lead to absolute anarchy every time someone cheated the other, having a situation where both parties can break the rules and get away with it makes trade and enterprise between the two impossible.

Culture would have had to mix, if the Arkage and Seshweay had two radically different senses of what ownership constituted at a fundamental level then in a practical sense trade would be difficult, the selling of property difficult, even concepts of lending something to someone might be different. Culturally both would borrow the best practices of the other, from an economic perspective with regards to ownership its inevitable that they would merge to facilitate enterprise and trade, the worst practices that hampered trade would only need to be abandoned by a small portion of traders or the general populace before everyone else would have to do the same to compete. Over a process of 500 years its completely reasonable culturally a great deal of divergence has happened, if it didn’t then the Empire would not have had any common ground to stand on… it would also appear that partially adopting the Seshweay religion and the Seshweay including Arkage ancestors in the Pantheon would be a good indication of cultural interchange… (Hint NK :p)

Call me a cynic but no National Government in this case the Imperial one is going to stand by and have a trade system which is to complex and doesn’t work very well at all, the amount of money it would cost them to supervise it would be prohibitively expensive, and lets not forget that the Imperial Government would have derived a substantial sum of money from taxing trade... Its in the governments best interests to smooth out any hiccups and consequently reap the taxation windfall benefits…

And its 500 years, you don’t spend 500 years in the same nation and not have to deal with each other a fair bit… try living next door to a someone of a different culture you pick things up rather quick if you want to deal or interact with them or vice versa.


Note: Regardless i dont really care if we have remained completely seperate, but the issue stands that if we have the Seshweay still hate you with a passion and the imposition of a dictator by the Arkage to destroy Seshweay Republicanism is going to be terribly popular anything changed during the 600 years of Empire stands the risk of being called Arkage manipulation - propaganda is fun
 
@ NK -I'm confused, why does nwag3 and Masada have first pick over NPC's once their nation has collapsed?

It's courtesy.

My nation also collapsed and I am being offered the rump state that remains.. why arn't they? Jania has always been a NPC.

Ah, but Jania was conquered in the update (see the first political map) and then regained independence more or less specifically as a rump state itself. Notice how the capital of "Jania" isn't even the city of Jania (which was, after all, in a rather indefensible position and was burned to the ground).

EDIT: Rubbish, Arkage and Seshweay culture has probably converaged in 500 years of Empire, we didnt kill each other in a gigantic civil war like I was expecting... you worship my ancestors and it would seem logical to me that in turn ive added Arkage and Craknid ancestors to the Pantheon, i stated that in a story a while back.

The cultures did indeed converge, but they are still different enough that the nation exploded in the last update. Though really, that was less a case of "Seshweay killing Arkage" than "Seshweay and Arkage killing everyone". Not being able to feed your family does make a man do strange things.

Relaxed? :lol: that "religion" was destoryed in the first update.. I doubt there is anything left of that now.

The Seshweay religion is going strong, though it's necessarily stopped going to the level of calling everyone subhuman, otherwise it would be difficult to form relations with other nations. Only fundamentalist Seshweay ever really believed that, anyway.
 
I still don't see what this has to do with my diplo?
You agree but want a garrison to remain?

Well, If you get those 1) we had them for a LONG time and 2) They are in assault distance. Also, the straits are too narrow for so much trade and I can't have you hooking all of it. Also, it seems I have more iron due to distance to Trilu (nearly ZIP).
 
It would be ironic if the enslaved, conquered slavers (Bahra) conquered and enslaved the Sesh. :p

You would need a diagram or something to show who slaved who.:crazyeye:

North King, what exactly do my people write on? And how did the Duroc use chariots? Horses are pretty far north. Or did they use zebras?:lol:
 
Ok, so what nations are free?
 
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