what if there was no hitler?

mmmh.......as a former Red alert 3 pro-player, i was wondering, waht if hitler had been killed in WWI wehre he was a soldier? the communists would had won control of germany? would there had been a second world war w/ teh other axis (japan, italy) or would stalin himself would had invaded europe in his version of manifest destiny? or would ther had been no war at all? no conflict? or would the NAZI party would still had been powerful?

Maybe a hot war with the UK, US, France, Canada, and other western nations vs. the Soviet Union. I don't have an idea about Asia.

mmmh......maybe in europe, but i dont think the USSR would had any need to fight canada, jsut to far

Canada would help the UK.

oh yeah, well the US would too..........or maybe russia would not do anything in europe, destroy the japanese threat and help china's communists

I beleive that someone would have filled Hitler's role in Germany. Better or worse? Who knows? There was still alot of hatred in Germany over the Versaille treaty and the territory it stole from the country.

I doubt a democracy, like Weimar, could last in the country, and it's doubtfull that communists could really take over without the support of the army. Slim chance that the Hohenzollerns maybe would've had a chance of a comeback, and establish the monarchy again.

Conflict with Poland, in my opinion, over West Prussia,Memel, lower Silesia, and Danzig etc, was bound to spark off a European conflict with or without Hitler.


Hoth

On an interesting note, Hitler was an aspiring art student. However, his art career was ended when he was rejected as a student from a prestigous art academy in Vienna. Heaven knows what would've happened if we all knew Hitler today as a famous artist...

I think that if Hitler hadn't taken control, some other charismatic leader of some facist-type party would have take control of Germany. Germany was stinging from it's defeat in WWI and the humiliating terms of the Versailles Treaty. All it needed was a well-spoken leader to tell them that it wasn't their fault they had lost the war. The idea of Aryan superiority and a extremely negative view of Jews were not new ideas to 1930's Germany. Antisemitism had existed since the reign of Constantine, and many German 'scientists' had come up with actual theories about how the nordic race was superior. Any relatively charismatic leader could have taken all these elements and transformed the country into something similar to Nazi Germany.

The Holocaust might not have happened had Hitler never been born, though. He grew up in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, and his experiences there seemed to give a negative view of Jews. Some historians suspect that Hitler may have been part jewish himself, which, due to latent anti-semitism in all Germans, could explain his lifelong hatred of them.

If Hitler never came to power, we might not be having the problems we are having now in the middle east. I mean if there is no Jewish state to rival with neighboring muslim states, then maybe terrorism might not be as extreme as it is today.

Isreal was a nation a long while back, and it was bound to be a nation again. The Soviets would have treated the Jewish population like sub- humans as well.

Originally posted by Zarn
Maybe a hot war with the UK, US, France, Canada, and other western nations vs. the Soviet Union. I don't have an idea about Asia.

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In Asia, probably not much difference. Imperial Japan was already out of control. Eventually war would break out betw Japan and the US over China, as the Americans were blatantly pro-Chinese at this time. The Japanese, inspired by their successful raid on Vladivostok during the Russo-Japanese War of 1902, would probably try something similar against the Americans.

Otherwise the Japanese would eventually run out of raw materials and their war machine would grind to a halt.

Maybe a Soviets vs. China/US vs. Japan on the Pacific Rim.

Originally posted by Zarn
Isreal was a nation a long while back, and it was bound to be a nation again. The Soviets would have treated the Jewish population like sub- humans as well.

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The Soviets treated everyone like subhumans, incl Russians, Kazakhs, Crimean Tatars, Turkomen etc. Nothing special there....

It'd been 2000 years since the last time there was a Jewish nation. There's nothing inevitable about it reforming again, esp not now, unless there's a special circumstance for it i.e. the Nazi genocide.

Originally posted by Zarn
Maybe a Soviets vs. China/US vs. Japan on the Pacific Rim.

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The Chinese, sad to say, were a non-entity at this time. It would be a war betw Japan and the US. The Soviets already fought with the Japanese over Outer Mongolia and won due to their superior armor in 1936. Both parties signed a non-aggression treaty after that. Stalin had no interest in a war in the Far East, being more wary of the West (who did send in forces to fight the Red Army during the Civil War of the early 20s) and in holding on to his power.

What's there in the East for him, except territories occupied by millions of Chinese and the Japanese home islands? Except maybe for Manchuria but the Japanese were holding tightly to it and the Soviets already had lots of resources and such.

I seriously doubt Germany would've done anything without Hitler at the helm. It would've been much later until someone else with his charisma came along, but by then, the German democracy would've settled down considerably. Russia's agression would definetly come out eventually on Poland, toward Germany. A new war may have started, only with America and most european nations against the russian agression.
The war in the Pacific, Hitler or no Hitler, would have happened. The beginning and end and the conflict between America and Japan might be different, as Japan may not have been as pressured to bomb any American bases, and the American war effort would have been much more concentraited at Japan.

Without Hitler and the Holocost, our advancements in atomic and rocket science would not be as far, or Germany would be superior in these areas. Without the Holocost, or the subsequest capture of German rocket technology, advanced German science and their scientists.

Basically, without Hitler, the course of world history could have been changes dramastically.

Dear Knight Dragon!

You wrote:
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The Japanese, inspired by their successful raid on Vladivostok during the Russo-Japanese War of 1902, ...
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Fantastic! I've always thought that War on Far East between Japan & Russia began in 1904 . It begin as Japan's raids onto:
1) Port-Arthur fleet base of First Russian Far East Fleet & resulted as 2 Russian battleships ("Czesarevitch" & "Retvizan") & 1 cruiser ("Pallas") was seriously damaged - no one was sinked.
2) Korean port Chemulpo blockade with cruiser "Varjag" & cannon-boat "Koreets" was sinked by japs.
Vladivostok was never raided by japanese due to simple fact that it was really pointless - Gulf of Peter the Great is very shallow & no one Russian battleship can enter it & deep-water channel southerner then Nachodka could give berth for only cruiser (yeah, only one cruiser during all Russian-Japanese war - "Bogatyr" to be exact!).
By the way - Port Arthur was acquired during "chinese march" of Russian Army in 1899 year in was in stage of development in 1904. Only 1 Fort ("Second") from 6 designed was completed to beginning of this war. Then Japanese aggression was some form of pre-emptive strike & is very reasonable for any colonial-war situation ot those times. (It's very stupid - to wait for Russians taking root in chinese ground by completing their Port Arthur Fortress!) Then... you remarks is slightly out of "bull-eye" in this issue - Russians was aggressor side in this war as far as Japanese & it's unfair to blame only Japan for this war. (By the way Russia had her share of China in that war in form of "Outer Mongolia" that "was liberated from China influence" as result.)
I think - every "great power" tried to get their foothold in China with Russia & England as major rivals. Russia took nothern part of China, England - South. USA & Germany tried to help Russia in this war (for lessening English influence in Far East). France favored her English relationships due to looming war against Germany & Japan... Japan became English battle spearpoint of some sort. It's very unfair to say that in 1900s Japan was "really aggressive country". Well...

I don't want to say anything about main issue of this tread, but it's worth to mention that Hitler came to power by very wide-spread Nationalistic feelings due to Versaille treaty conditions &.... It's easy to forgot that in 1920s Poland was really aggressive in "foreign affairs field" against Germany - not vice versa. Try to take in account that Poland ruler intentionally broke couple of statements in Versaille treaty about "Danzig's corridore" & right's of German population in Silezia und Pommern & it was wide-spread idea "to teach Polish swines some lesson" strong before Hitler appearance (this motto was main song for right-wing parties in late 20s elections). It seems that war with Poland was decided by "german public opinion" to begin of 30s & would be true with Hitler or without him. But - outcome of this "Polish war" without so charismatic leader as Hitler would be... let's say - unknown.

Sincerely yours, Alex.

Originally posted by A_Bashkuev
Fantastic! I've always thought that War on Far East between Japan & Russia began in 1904 . It begin as Japan's raids onto:
1) Port-Arthur fleet base of First Russian Far East Fleet & resulted as 2 Russian battleships ("Czesarevitch" & "Retvizan") & 1 cruiser ("Pallas") was seriously damaged - no one was sinked.
2) Korean port Chemulpo blockade with cruiser "Varjag" & cannon-boat "Koreets" was sinked by japs.

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No need to be sarcastic, this's what comes after you've been out of school for years and out of the reading loop for longer. Also when you've just woken up for the day. Anyway, the Russo-Japanese War had never been my strong suit....

Vladivostok was never raided by japanese due to simple fact that it was really pointless - Gulf of Peter the Great is very shallow & no one Russian battleship can enter it & deep-water channel southerner then Nachodka could give berth for only cruiser (yeah, only one cruiser during all Russian-Japanese war - "Bogatyr" to be exact!).

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Sorry, I meant the raid on the Russian Far East Fleet at Port Arthur (or wherever), not Vladivostok. Resulting in the Tsar ordering the Baltic Fleet to the Far East as well, which was also defeated.

The Japanese success in this pre-emptive strike was the inspiration for the later-day pre-emptive strike on Pearl Harbour in conception. Was what I meant.

Then... you remarks is slightly out of "bull-eye" in this issue - Russians was aggressor side in this war as far as Japanese & it's unfair to blame only Japan for this war. (By the way Russia had her share of China in that war in form of "Outer Mongolia" that "was liberated from China influence" as result.)

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I wasn't blaming anybody, merely stating (or trying to) the pre-emptive strike on the Russian Far East Fleet was the inspiration for the Pearl Harbour attk. Russia and Japan were manoevuring over Manchuria and trying to out-landgrab each other at this point. Pointless to argue who're more aggressive since both were aggressors trying to stomach down Chinese lands.

I think - every "great power" tried to get their foothold in China with Russia & England as major rivals. Russia took nothern part of China, England - South. USA & Germany tried to help Russia in this war (for lessening English influence in Far East). France favored her English relationships due to looming war against Germany & Japan... Japan became English battle spearpoint of some sort. It's very unfair to say that in 1900s Japan was "really aggressive country". Well...

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Japan was as aggressive as any of the European powers, in her attempt to get her 'place in the sun'. FYI, the Russians tried for Manchuria, the Ili Valley in Xinjiang (which they still kept now), Xinjiang itself, Mongolia. The British controlled the Yangzi valley. The French influenced Guangxi. The Germans took Qingdao. The Japanese took Korea, which was a Chinese tributary state and later Manchuria. Chinese history is my strong suit. Only the Americans did nothing much.

The Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902 also gave the Japanese the diplomatic confidence to take on Russia.

It's easy to forgot that in 1920s Poland was really aggressive in "foreign affairs field" against Germany - not vice versa. Try to take in account that Poland ruler intentionally broke couple of statements in Versaille treaty about "Danzig's corridore" & right's of German population in Silezia und Pommern & it was wide-spread idea "to teach Polish swines some lesson" strong before Hitler appearance (this motto was main song for right-wing parties in late 20s elections). It seems that war with Poland was decided by "german public opinion" to begin of 30s & would be true with Hitler or without him. But - outcome of this "Polish war" without so charismatic leader as Hitler would be... let's say - unknown.

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Indeed, the Poles were very active internationally and took a very active part in the Russian Civil War. There were Polish units helping the White Russian forces thru out most of it AFAIK. Only natural the Soviets had a score to settle with them. I think sort of expected for a reborn nation.

The Poles also joined the Little Detente with France and Czechoslovakia and trying to isolate Germany. It didn't really work out though...

People keep saying that without Hitler, another charismatic, intelligent Fascist leader would have came about. Who, exactly? Who is this person? I see no-one in Germany at the time who could have done what Hitler did. Not even anyone in his own party.

And The Communists were still a joke in terms of being able to actually ever win any sort of real power. Not to mention that The Elite were never going to let them have any through legitimate means, let alone through violence.

Most likely as far as I can tell would be some eventual seizure of power by the elite, and a probable restored monarchy with Wilhelm II back again, as improbable as that sounds. (He didn't actually die until 1941)

Stephen Fry's book 'Making History' is about this situation. The Nazi's just find a new leader (who was indirectly killed by Hitler in WWI) to lead them to domination.

Wall St. crash, mass anti-semitism, 'socialist threat', longing for renewed national pride, hatred of Versialles (sp), the situation was there, it just needed someone to grab it by the throat. If Hitler didn't someone else would have.

Originally posted by Hamlet
People keep saying that without Hitler, another charismatic, intelligent Fascist leader would have came about. Who, exactly? Who is this person? I see no-one in Germany at the time who could have done what Hitler did. Not even anyone in his own party.

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A supporter of the Nazi's in this (for lack of a better word) 'dimension' would have filled the vacuum in the other 'dimension'. Hitler joined the Nazi party by interuppting a debate in a beer hall because he was so disgusted by what he was hearing. If he didn't interrupt who is to say someone who in our 'dimension' felt the same but was beaten to it by Hitler and just stood there and gave support would in another 'dimension' interrupt himself? (Hmm, that sentence was a bit unwieldy. )