Playing on Immortal Level

After feedback from my previous thread, I recently upped my game difficulty to Immortal on Gods & Kings. I am playing as the Koreans on Gedemon's "Yet Not Another Earth Map" by Hormigas (btw, thank you Gedemon and Hormigas for awesome map!) with 22 civs total at Standard pace.

<Current Status>
I am in the Year 1400 and have just been attacked for the umpth time by the Japanese. Actually, I am in constant war with both the Chinese and the Japanese, but seem to be able to negotiate peace with the Japanese sometimes. I only just managed to negotiate peace with the Chinese this time for the FIRST TIME.

<Diplomacy History>
The last time, the Japanese paid me a lot of money for a peace treaty. I don't know why. I accepted and continued to defend against the Chinese who would not even go to the negotiating table. They never once agreed to even negotiate. Then they decided to agree to peace with no terms whatsoever. Odd... But maybe it had to do with the fact that the Japanese were also attacking them? The Japanese will rarely go to the negotiating, but I had managed to have them agree to peace several times anyhow.

<Ranking>
After many years at bottom last (22 out of 22) in every single category, I managed to slowly move up the rankings to between 17 and 21. I have also expanded into eight cities taking all of the Korean Peninsula and most of Manchuria. My science is falling behind China's though and I noticed that they are getting slightly more advanced units such as the Musketman which I have started also making. My land ranking is about 19th and I expect to take over most of the Russian Far East region eventually.

<Problem>
I am slowly expanding, but I feel like I am falling behind in Science and Culture. I am ranked dead last in both because I have spent most of my time building units to defend against both China and Japan. This time, it seems the Japanese are ready to overwhelm me with Samurai and Musketmen. But I haven't been able to reach the point of building Turtle Boats. These would definitely keep them from invading Korea.

I just wonder if I should just quit this game and play on Emperor level. This one is definitely fun and challenging, but I am unable to build a single Wonder and feel like maybe it will be end up being just a slow decline. What do you think?

Is there any way to encourage peace with at least one of these civs most of the time? Will trading with them help? Does trade and open borders lead to a diplomacy bonus? I doubt they will even trade with me, but it's worth a try...

Also, are any of you able to build any Wonders at the Immortal level? I just gave up because it was ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to build anything early in the game. Then it seems like every other civ has better technology now, so no chance.

I will say that Immortal level is at least doable, but can you win?

Yup

Just have the patience to weather it through the year 2200AD and you'll do fine.

But if you mean winning before the Immortals do, then I suggest you plunge into Industrial and Modern eras asap... like, go Banking > Industrialization > Steam > Radio, and don't forget to staff your Unis and rushbuy Public schools along the way. You might also want to build a fleet of Galleas (5-7 in total, with Bombardment 2 promotions, from a Barracks/Armory coastal city) and then bulb Navigation through Oxford and upgrade them all to Frigates... AND TAKE JAPAN OUT WITH FRIGATES

Just a thought

I just quit the game and will start a new game. I definitely need to get to Turtle Boats as soon as possible because Japan keeps invading. They always seem to manage to take a city and then I restart.

Questions:

1. Can any of you build Wonders early in the game without a Great Engineer? What are your tips for building Wonders?

2. Can you offer any other tips for winning in Immortal?

3. Does the policy that gives you free cultural buildings in your first four cities give you something else if you already built Monuments? Will it give me Ampitheaters instead, for example? What happens if I already built Monuments and I haven't gotten the technology for Ampitheaters yet? Will I get nothing? And is it really the first four cities you built? What if one is overtaken by another Civ? What about the one that gives you aqueducts? If I already built them in my first four cities, do they go to the next four?

4. With the Hormigas mod, is there any way to play the game without the New World civs (Americans, Iroquois, Aztecs, and Incans)? I tried to go into Advanced Setup and do this, but it made me start in a totally wrong Starting Location. This is even though I got the culturally-linked mod and both tried disabling and enabling the Start Bias.

Thanks, guys.

In my experience any game above Prince is war, war, war, war, war, war, war.

Ridiculously tedious and seems kind of pointless after awhile.

If I wanted a war game I'd buy an RTS.

siredgar said:

I just quit the game and will start a new game. I definitely need to get to Turtle Boats as soon as possible because Japan keeps invading. They always seem to manage to take a city and then I restart.

Questions:

1. Can any of you build Wonders early in the game without a Great Engineer? What are your tips for building Wonders?

2. Can you offer any other tips for winning in Immortal?

3. Does the policy that gives you free cultural buildings in your first four cities give you something else if you already built Monuments? Will it give me Ampitheaters instead, for example? What happens if I already built Monuments and I haven't gotten the technology for Ampitheaters yet? Will I get nothing? And is it really the first four cities you built? What if one is overtaken by another Civ? What about the one that gives you aqueducts? If I already built them in my first four cities, do they go to the next four?

4. With the Hormigas mod, is there any way to play the game without the New World civs (Americans, Iroquois, Aztecs, and Incans)? I tried to go into Advanced Setup and do this, but it made me start in a totally wrong Starting Location. This is even though I got the culturally-linked mod and both tried disabling and enabling the Start Bias.

Thanks, guys.

Click to expand...

1. Yes, although some are impossible. Stonehenge, Oracle, and Pyramids seem to be reliably obtainable, while Hanging Gardens and the Great Library are near impossible. If you want a wonder, you have to beeline that tech and start building it ASAP. If you don't beeline the necessary tech, you'll never get a wonder (aside from maybe Oracle).

2. Always have an army ready early, otherwise you'll get squashed on turn 30 or 40. Also, you need to be micromanaging your cities on Immortal.

3. Legalism (the policy you speak of) gives the lowest-level cultural building you don't already have in that city. If you already have a monument in your capital but nothing in your second city, you'll get an amphitheater in the capital and a monument in the second city. I'm 99% sure you don't need the necessary tech to get the free building, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. With the tradition finisher that gives free aqueducts, if you already have them built, you'll get nothing, except you'll no longer have to pay maintenance on your aqueducts.

4. I don't play with that mod, so I have no idea.

Aaron90495 said:

3. Legalism (the policy you speak of) gives the lowest-level cultural building you don't already have in that city. If you already have a monument in your capital but nothing in your second city, you'll get an amphitheater in the capital and a monument in the second city. I'm 99% sure you don't need the necessary tech to get the free building, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. With the tradition finisher that gives free aqueducts, if you already have them built, you'll get nothing, except you'll no longer have to pay maintenance on your aqueducts.

Click to expand...

For Legalism, you don't get the next higher free culture building (e.g., Amphitheaters) until you tech that building (e.g., Drama & Poetry), but when you do, it appears automatically (in G&K, at least--vanilla behaved oddly). That is different from the Tradition finisher, where you get free aqueducts when you take that last policy, whether or not you've teched aqueducts.

siredgar said:

1. Can any of you build Wonders early in the game without a Great Engineer? What are your tips for building Wonders?

Click to expand...

If you plan on playing more Immortal, and Deity, you'll have to get used o not being able to spam Wonders like you can on the easier levels. Know what Wonders you want (choose 3 or 4) and beeline them. Usually you can pick up a couple more if you keep your eyes open.

2. Can you offer any other tips for winning in Immortal?

Thanks, guys.

Click to expand...

Get National College as soon as practical, then Oxford University... prioritise Science buildings, always. Science is king at Immortal (even if you're going for other VC).

Sherlock said:

In my experience any game above Prince is war, war, war, war, war, war, war.

Ridiculously tedious and seems kind of pointless after awhile.

If I wanted a war game I'd buy an RTS.

Click to expand...

If you don't like the combat portion of the game then yes, I would suggest you are playing the wrong game.

I personally don't know how some people ALWAYS play tall/peaceful/culturally. It was fun the first couple times, sure, but the build orders are always the same.

Sherlock said:

In my experience any game above Prince is war, war, war, war, war, war, war.

Ridiculously tedious and seems kind of pointless after awhile.

If I wanted a war game I'd buy an RTS.

Click to expand...

The Civilization series is about history, specifically the history of the world in the last 6,000 years... which has been, whether we like it or not, dominated by a huge amount of wars. To omit this aspect of history is, imho, to deny our humanity. I believe that to enjoy the game, and series, at it's best, is to embrace all it's aspects equally, including combat.

No, you usually cannot get early wonders on Immortal.
If you really want to and no wonderspammer is on the map, you can get ToA or Petra. Depending on your situation, you can also go for the MoH.
However, going for early wonders on immortal will delay your {archers/worker/settlet/library/granary/water mill production} which will leave you in a position where you won't survive the early rushes.
Or get too far behind in science for the wonders you can get: the ones which actually matters for victory (ie. Porcelain Tower, Leaning tower of Pisa, Oracle, maybe Hagia Sophia, etc...).

Sherlock said:

In my experience any game above Prince is war, war, war, war, war, war, war.

Ridiculously tedious and seems kind of pointless after awhile.

If I wanted a war game I'd buy an RTS.

Click to expand...

I moved up to King about 4 months ago, and jumped to Emporer two weeks ago. I don't find it difficult to avoid war most of the time. I believe the key is to navigate the Diplomacy well (make black alliances), and to have a strong enough military to dissuade attackers.

I would say that in the first 200 turns, 80% of the time I'm able to avoid ongoing war. (By that I mean that a few skirmishes might start, but I beat them back and sign a peace treaty which leads to peace.)

What I like to do of late for starting on Immortal... is to do a half-Tabarnak. Basically following 90% of his T0-T60 guide, but then veering off to beeline NC ASAP. This means 3 cities initially, and the one thing 3 cities have over four cities is you not getting dogpiled by 2-3 neighbor civs for "aggressive settling". Preferably your "fourth" city should be someone else's capital (someone unfortunate enough to DOW you), and this can create problems with your other (surviving) neighbors (easily alleviated with a large force of comp bows/meatshield force and a DoF or two); if not, just settle a fourth city after NC is done and you are close to punching Medieval. Optimally, all this should be done before T90.

Then between T100-T130, if situation allows it (like having additional lux in area or more warmongering), go settle another city.

truenarnian said:

I would say that in the first 200 turns, 80% of the time I'm able to avoid ongoing war. (By that I mean that a few skirmishes might start, but I beat them back and sign a peace treaty which leads to peace.)

Click to expand...

On immortal, you will most likely get DoW'd by your closest neighbors during the first 60-100 turns, especially if you only settle one or two cities and have a handful of archers.
More cities count towards your military might, so I'd say three or four cities and five archers will prevent them from declaring war unless it's one of the usual psycho (alexander, attila, washington, caesar, elizabeth...).
Nothing beats a lucky/good diplomacy and CSs buffer for peaceful turtling, though.

Oh, and a "good" map too. I usually quit at these difficulty levels if I am "surrounded" in a pangaea map. Not worth the hassle of fighting two or three fronts during the first 100 turns, I'm not good enough yet.

Thanks for all the tips. But the final word on the Legalism policy would be much appreciated.

Just to give an update, I started a new game with the exact same conditions and focusing on building a good military and science I have managed to fend off both China and Japan. I have even gotten ahead of Japan in terms of military and almost caught up to China's military, too. I am also more advanced in science. And I managed to build Himeji Castle with a Great Engineer! This is very helpful since I am continuously invaded by my neighbors.

I am at around the Year 1600 and have managed to build 15 cities to have the fifth largest territory and about to colonize all of Southeast Asia. But my civ still ranks near the bottom for Happiness most of the time. I have managed to get around rank 17/21 (the Arabian civ appears to have been eliminated by the Ottomans) for Military. Rank for Science is in the top ten. But my population is only around 19 for some reason.

On this map, I noticed the Russians, Spanish, and Ottomans are always strongest. The Arabians usually get eliminated or boxed in and the Songhai and Ethiopians are in the upper ranks. The Japanese continue to focus on attacking my Koreans and don't even bother to colonize islands near them. This has always been a problem in the Civ series. They don't colonize until later in the game. The Chinese do not expand West and instead seem to go south to the tropical resources in Southeast Asia. I think there should have the Siamese and Mongolians in this game, while eliminating all of the civs in the Americas (Americans, Sioux, Incans, and Aztecs - I don't have the Mayans pack). This would leave this region up for colonization grabs. Is there any way to set this up?

Oh and I didn't get to found a religion even though I focused on this first and foremost. I rused to build four cities and built shrines first in all of them. I even found a Barbarian goody hut with a bonus Faith of 60 or 70. But I missed founding a religion by two or three turns. So I am accumulating Faith with no use until I get enough for a Great Person... With 22 civs, I think seven religions is too little.

So I'm just letting the Chinese spread Taoism throughout my cities and no longer caring about religion at all, besides building shrines occasionally.

loki75 said:

No, you usually cannot get early wonders on Immortal.

Click to expand...

Weirdly enough, I was able to get the great library today (turn 60 or something, I finished it when mongols were at the gate) on my bab immortal game, low and behold, after I built shrine, granary and water mill!
Suffice to say, this should be an easy game.