A Babylon 5 Mod for the Final Frontier Mod

Premier Valle · Feb 15, 2008

PsiCorps said:
The EA used the Global Orbital Defence (G.O.D.) satellites A player could build these in a system but they would be immobile. If you wanted to move one you would need to transport it to the required destination. You could use these in addition to the ground forces i suggested. This would make taking a system something something to be dreaded. A lot like peeling an onion.

OK, I was thinking, if the defense grid is a unit like a fighter then it wouldn't be involved in direct combat, but only like a fighter, so you should send it(but the defense grid shouldn't move..., and if an enemy captures the system the defense grid would be useless. And then some light came to my mind, what happens if you set a unit's movement points to zero, I just did some testing, and indeed, the unit doesn't move, yet it can defend, also tested the unit's relocation capabilities using a transport ship, it worked!, I was able to load the inmobile unit to the transport and then relocate it to other city (I did the test on BtS)!.

About the GROPOS, I like the idea, after all, to secure a planet/system, you need to send in the ground pounders... but, if we remove the ability of ships to take cities/systems, then we have a problem; its like the scout, scouts cannot attack cities (even undefended ones) but they can garrison cities, in consecuence, we could have capital vessels defending Systems, but we loose the capability to attack Systems with capital ships, so the GROPOS would have the responsability to take on the capital ships and then taking out the defender's ground forces...
I think the "only Marines can capture systems" idea can not work, we have to find another way.

New faction suggestion: League of non aligned worlds (I'm not contradicting myself)

Spoiler :

Refining the Civs:
Here is the PsiCorps proposed list of factions:

Spoiler :

UU's and UB's

Spoiler :

About the Leaders:

Spoiler :

And Talking about traits:

Spoiler :

And BTW, I changed my game's languaje to english so that it makes no trouble

EDIT: I was wondering... are we going to implement mine warfare??

Thorgrimm · Feb 15, 2008

Premier Valle said:
About the GROPOS, I like the idea, after all, to secure a planet/system, you need to send in the ground pounders... but, if we remove the ability of ships to take cities/systems, then we have a problem; its like the scout, scouts cannot attack cities (even undefended ones) but they can garrison cities, in consecuence, we could have capital vessels defending Systems, but we loose the capability to attack Systems with capital ships, so the GROPOS would have the responsability to take on the capital ships and then taking out the defender's ground forces...
I think the "only Marines can capture systems" idea can not work, we have to find another way.

The only problem with this is that FF the Star systems are ocean and space is land. Backwards from every other 4x ever made. I used to scratch my head why Jon did it that way. Still do. :confused:

Cheers, Thorgrimm :nuke:

PsiCorps · Feb 15, 2008

Hi Guys
I've gone through everything Premier Valle has done on the Tech Tree. I've kept all of his suggestions but moved some of the techs around so that it's a little more logical(to me anyway :lol:

)

Surely if the maps have reversed sea and land working out how marines attack from land to sea shouldn't be too much of a problem should it?

I Think the Kha Ri was the political organisation used by the Narn possibly a bit like the US system of Congressmen and Senators (Or are they the same? US political system isn't my strong point :crazyeye:

)

The Narn were an Agrarian race before they were invaded/enslaved by the Centauri so Expansive might be a better option for them.

Minbari should be Spiritual although even they ended up having a period of unrest so Organised might be a better option for them.

Humans i feel should be Industrious.

G'kar was very militaristic at the start of the B5 series but after the Narn were defeated and he used Dust he became almost a totally different person so I feel having the choice of Citizen G'kar and G'kar is valid.

All of a sudden i've thought about the Rangers and how we might fit them in to our mod. Gonna have to give this a some thought as we can't leave them out.

Thorgrimm · Feb 15, 2008

PsiCorps said:
Surely if the maps have reversed sea and land working out how marines attack from land to sea shouldn't be too much of a problem should it?

Shouldn't be a problem if we keep an eye on unit abilities.

I Think the Kha Ri was the political organisation used by the Narn possibly a bit like the US system of Congressmen and Senators (Or are they the same? US political system isn't my strong point )

Below is a blurb about the Narn. They seem more Euro than American in their societal outlook. You know, Europe's fascination with heirarchal societies and all.

Narn society (both before and after their century of enslavement by the Centauri) is strictly hierarchical and based on a class system. The Kha'Ri consists of 8 circles, with the royal families being First, spiritual leaders Second, government officials Third, and trainees Eighth. The ambassador to Babylon 5, G'Kar, was a member of the third circle. The Kha'Ri was based in the city of G'Khamazad on Narn. The rest of the people are divided into Skilled Workers, Plebeians, or the Lost (unemployed, criminals, and the mentally ill). Upward movement between classes is difficult for the majority. Narn cities are built in roughly concentric districts which reflect the social hierarchy.

The Narn were an Agrarian race before they were invaded/enslaved by the Centauri so Expansive might be a better option for them.

I would say make an event happen to give the Narn a chance to chage their traits. Since the Narn before the Centauri occupation were peaceful, and not expansionistic. But afterwards was desperately expansionistic.

Minbari should be Spiritual although even they ended up having a period of unrest so Organised might be a better option for them.

Organized would not be good for the Minbari. Since it was eventually explained Valen set up the society the way he did to prevent exactly that, unrest and chaos. Actually, I would put a larger penalty for the Minbari to make ANY type of change to their government or religion. To reflect that static, non-changing and Vorlon-ordered society.

Humans i feel should be Industrious.

Agreed

G'kar was very militaristic at the start of the B5 series but after the Narn were defeated and he used Dust he became almost a totally different person so I feel having the choice of Citizen G'kar and G'kar is valid.

Maybe make an event to change the leaders from G'Kar to Citizen G'Kar.

All of a sudden i've thought about the Rangers and how we might fit them in to our mod. Gonna have to give this a some thought as we can't leave them out.

The best way to reflect the Rangers is through espionage. Have a great wonder, maybe something like Entil'Zha, that give the owner benifits to his espionage score. Or some such.

:nuke:

Cheers, Thorgrimm :nuke:

Premier Valle · Feb 15, 2008

Hi!,

The only problem with this is that FF the Star systems are ocean and space is land. Backwards from every other 4x ever made. I used to scratch my head why Jon did it that way. Still do.

When I saw your post I was puzzled as well, so I got hands on bussines and now I found (or at least I think so) why Jon did it that way, check this out:

Feature list for FF:

Spoiler :

So, Jon needed a lot of features for the different kind of "accidents" in space, that is why space = land rather than ocean; after all, it is easier/faster to clone/modify existing records than to create completely new ones.

Moreover:

Spoiler :

Now on the Marines issue, I have spent the last few hours trying to figure out how we can make it happen without removing the capital ships ability to attack/capture systems.

For example, the UNITCLASS_DESTROYER_I has a DOMAIN_LAND domain, And Solar Systems are supposed to be water, now with a colonized system seeing a destroyer enter the system is OK, but even if the system isn't colonized the destroyer can enter the system.

So, in conclusion, I still think the marines thing is not possible (well, of course it is possible, but at least not with my current modding skills :sad:

).

Moving into other things, I like the PsiCorps tech tree, and tho I believe that the "Tachyon Comms" tech is too early (a starting tech) I can live with it, because after all, it solves the "hyperspace being too late" problem of my tree, so I like the new tree more than mine, but just a few comments on the new tree:
- How "suspended animation" can lead to Terraforming? :hmm:

- I think that "laser weapons" and "energy weapons" should be swapped.
- I believe that energy weapons (pulse, laser) should be available after the projectile weapons (missiles, railguns).
Other than that I love the new tech tree.

About the An'La'Shock I always thought of them in this way, whoever builds the "Babylon Project" should have access to whitestars, and whoever builds the "InterStellar Alliance" should have access to whitestars and Victoria Class Destroyers.

About the traits, I believe we should create new traits rather than use existing ones, while some of these may be usable (i.e. agressive) others like Industrious aren't that worth (+50% to wonder construcction) because I believe there will be too little wonders.

Wonders so far: (IMHO)
- Babylon Project
- InterStellar Alliance
Could there be other wonders??, which ones??, other than those I can't think of any other...

And you are right about G'Kar, I guess I can live with two G'Kar leaders, however an event that changes your traits, WOW! :eek:

I find that to be way out of our (current) capabilities, as it surely requires Python, and I guess none of us have such knowledge, I mean, I work with c++ but I have no idea of python and even less on how to manage CivIV with it :dunno:

Perhaps if Kael or Jon are kind enough to tell us how :mischief:

PsiCorps · Feb 16, 2008

Hi Guys
It's saturday morning and i haven't had a great deal of time to sit and do things but i thought i'd go over a few things so you don't feel i'm ignoring you all.

Premier Valle. I'll take another look at the tech tree and see if i can't sort out suspended animation/terraforming issue.

Thorgrimm. You raised some good points. One idea it suggested to me was that we could have some sort of Civic techs that once researched would allow a Race to change it's trait. Alongside this idea Premier suggested having new traits. My initial thoughts are what about amending existing traits so that each Race has it's own unique trait that exists in no other mod. I'll do some research and expand on this in a post later. :goodjob:

catch you later

Premier Valle · Feb 16, 2008

PsiCorps said:
Thorgrimm. You raised some good points. One idea it suggested to me was that we could have some sort of Civic techs that once researched would allow a Race to change it's trait.

I'm not sure that changing traits in-game is possible, but that requires some research, and even if it cannot be done we can sort out the issue in some other ways, I gave a quick look to the CIV4CivicInfos.xml and CIV4CivicOptionInfos.xml, the first file is where the civics are defined, and the second is where the ..mmmh... (lets call them "civic columns") are defined, so we can rename (i.e.) "religion/values" to "traits", and that way we can have in-game change of traits. At least that is the way I think it can be done (so far).

Which takes me to another question: what do you think about civics and values/religions)????.

I think we can have a "base trait" for the races / leaders and then the above proposed mini-trait change, and some civics.

About values... well I have no idea.
---
I have spent this saturday morning tracking all TECH_* dependencies, so I think I'm ready to start building the Tech tree.

I have to go now, I'll come back later and tell you something more...

Thorgrimm · Feb 16, 2008

Actually, using the SDK you can pretty much do anything in civ 4. But that requires c++ ability. Something I do not have. So you can get events to do anything. Heck I have seen mods that had resources AND buildings for peaks. Something not possible in regular civ 4. But with SDK work, is possible.

So, it is not a question of if, but a question of how.

Cheers, Thorgrimm :nuke:

Premier Valle · Feb 16, 2008

Ok, what I wanted to share is the TECH_* dependencies I found:

Spoiler :

I am cleaning these files in order to have as much blank as possible files to work with, yet, I haven't found yet where is stated that a system comes with the mining facility for free, perhaps it is dificulty level...
So, I'm ready to start building the tech tree.

@Thorgrimm
I thought that the SDK used Python, I know C++, so I'll give it a try

UPDATE: Possible breakthrough!:

Spoiler :

----------------------------------------------------
2nd UPDATE: Python

Spoiler :

I was puzzled as to where is stated that when you colonize a new system the best planet gets a free nutrition facility and a free mining facility, well, after going through a lot of xml files I founf it, but on a Python file:

Code:

def addBasicBuildingsToBestPlanet(pSystem):
	
	pPlot = CyMap().plot(pSystem.getX(), pSystem.getY())
	pCity = pPlot.getPlotCity()
	
	iNutritionFacility = CvUtil.findInfoTypeNum(gc.getBuildingInfo,gc.getNumBuildingInfos(),'BUILDING_NUTRITION_FACILITY')
	iMiningFacility = CvUtil.findInfoTypeNum(gc.getBuildingInfo,gc.getNumBuildingInfos(),'BUILDING_MINING_FACILITY')
	
	pCity.setNumRealBuilding(iNutritionFacility, pCity.getNumRealBuilding(iNutritionFacility) + 1)
	pCity.setNumRealBuilding(iMiningFacility, pCity.getNumRealBuilding(iMiningFacility) + 1)
	
	iBestPlanetIndex = getBestPlanetInSystem(pSystem)
	
	# Free buildings on the homeworld
	pPlanet = pSystem.getPlanetByIndex(iBestPlanetIndex)
	pPlanet.setHasBuilding(iNutritionFacility, true)
	pPlanet.setHasBuilding(iMiningFacility, true)

I found other references in this file, for example: when you build a MagLev network on a planet its yield changes, this is defined here.

There are also references to a BUILDING_STAR_FORTRESS and PROJECT_ASTRAL_GATE, in the CIV4ProjectInfo.xml there is a comment that says that at least there must be one project entry.

When I removed (commented) buildings from the CIV4BuildingInfos.xml and tried to start a new game, it crashed, so I de-commented the nutrition facility and mining facility, and this time the game didn't crash.

Now I believe that by simply changing the references to this buildings in the Python code we could alter it without problem, but as I have stated before, I work with C++ and not Python, I still have to try the SDK, but for the moment, perhaps we'll find a few restrictions thanks to the python files; however it is my believe that the python functions like the ones to change planet yields won't be a problem, for instance, I have removed the MagLev from my file, and the game runs, so If the functions is never called it should be a problem, I need to do some testing.

Of course, it'll be cleaner to use the already existing objects (that are referenced in the python file) and modify them to our liking (since we can always change TEXT references this will be unnoticed in-game) than to modify the python files.

PsiCorps · Feb 17, 2008

Hi all.
As you can see i didn't get back here yesterday to let you know what i'd done with Traits and the Tech Tree. So far i've only had a real good look at the Tech Tree. I've made a few additions and reorganised again.
I've put terraforming in early as with present technology we know how to Terraform Mars we just can't get there to do it.
We currently have Fission power, we know about superconductors but they are very expensive to make for commercial use although the Mag-Lev train in Japan uses them so we are getting closer to cheap commercial use (not household use yet though).
According to http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm Plasma based weapons needs laser technology and the little information i can find indicates a plasma weapon may have been built. So i have placed these as an early tech. Also the gatling rail gun is one of the weapons used by the Badger class Starfury so we need to have it as a prerequisite for second generation fighters. A tweak to the tech tree needed for that but we'll leave that for Revision 3 after i've read your input.
I don't seem to be able to upload winrar files so i'll have to keep doing word docs. My apologies for this.
I'm Struggling with ideas for benefits of traits. Every time i start i go overboard and give each race 6 different things. :crazyeye:

I Think we need to agree on what buildings we are going to use before we can decide on benefits and disadvantages of traits.

Looking forward to reading your feedback.

Premier Valle · Feb 17, 2008

Alright, I have seen the new tech tree, I like it, the only suggestion I can make is to rename "Advanced Computers" to "Next Gen. Computers".

However there are some ... limitations to the tech tree that MUST BE MADE (well actually I do not know if such limitations are that restrictive but...), what I mean is that the tech tree is now too big (vertically speaking), I believe it must be rearranged to fit the (lets call them) fissical limitations of the available in-game tech tree here is some info:
Special attention to the 4th point.
Thread

We know that the tech tree advisor can expand horizontally, but I do not know if it can also expand vertically, so that might be a limitant, I'll do some testing and report later.

On other things, yesterday I got curious, so I have decided to learn a little Python, will report later.

Also, I have downloaded the CivIV SDK, but it is for 1.61 of the vanilla game, do you know if there is a BtS SDK??

Thorgrimm · Feb 17, 2008

Premier Valle said:
Alright, I have seen the new tech tree, I like it, the only suggestion I can make is to rename "Advanced Computers" to "Next Gen. Computers".

However there are some ... limitations to the tech tree that MUST BE MADE (well actually I do not know if such limitations are that restrictive but...), what I mean is that the tech tree is now too big (vertically speaking), I believe it must be rearranged to fit the (lets call them) fissical limitations of the available in-game tech tree here is some info:
Special attention to the 4th point.
Thread

We know that the tech tree advisor can expand horizontally, but I do not know if it can also expand vertically, so that might be a limitant, I'll do some testing and report later.

On other things, yesterday I got curious, so I have decided to learn a little Python, will report later.

Also, I have downloaded the CivIV SDK, but it is for 1.61 of the vanilla game, do you know if there is a BtS SDK??

I am freaking sick to death of everything being called 'next gen.' Talk about non-creativity. :rolleyes:

Lets try to be just a bit more creative in our naming of the techs shall we? Or do you want this mod to look like the other 5 million 'Next Gen' items of crap out there? So lets try to leave the New York Ad Agencies hype machine where it belongs, in the garbage.

The tech tree can be expanded vertically as well as horisontally. See the Fall From Heaven 2 or Whammer Fantasy mods for an example.

:nuke:

Cheers, Thorgrimm :nuke:

Ajidica · Feb 17, 2008

From what I can tell, you don't need the SDK to acess the .dll files. All that you need is notpad to open XML files.I would reccomend hust to get a working version up, (No eye candy or special features) so people will get interested.
This is just my opinion.

Premier Valle · Feb 17, 2008

Thorgrimm said:
I am freaking sick to death of everything being called 'next gen.' Talk about non-creativity. Lets try to be just a bit more creative in our naming of the techs shall we? Or do you want this mod to look like the other 5 million 'Next Gen' items of crap out there? So lets try to leave the New York Ad Agencies hype machine where it belongs, in the garbage.

Easy man, I only proposed such name because computers are divided into generations (depending on the technologies used for such computers).

Glad to hear about the tech tree.

On a side note, I tried yesterday to take screenshots from the DVDs for the leader heads but it didn't work, there must be some sort of protection against screenshots.

PsiCorps · Feb 18, 2008

I'm not going to post another revision to the tech tree. However, bearing in mind both Premier and Thorgrimms notes on More advanced computers/Next generation Computers, i have spent all day at work ruminating on what we could do. So, how about this, Semi-sentient Computers can be researched after Artificial intelligence. I don't recall there ever being a race with fully sentient computers in B5 though the Great Machine on Epsillon 3 comes close. So the Tech of Sentient Computers or Direct Mental Interface Computers could be addded after that. I Leave the choice with you guys for discussion.

PsiCorps · Feb 18, 2008

Ha, just had another brainwave. Once you have Direct Mental Interface Computers and Organic Technology you can research/build Living Ships. Players can choose their design from any of the First-One ships or the Vorlons or shadows.

Premier Valle · Feb 18, 2008

I like the Idea of having "first ones" ships, after all, at late game the surviving factions should be on a "first one" level of development, prior to heading beyond the rim.

On other things, I have become familiar with Python, so I'm going to start reading some TUTs around here.

And about the tech tree, shall I start to build it and make changes "on the fly" or wait for a more developed tree?.

EDIT:
I have been succesfull at modifying some of the default FF python code, but when trying to add my own it didn't work (at least the game didn't crashed).

Some of other things in python:
- The space fortress "graphic" is declared in python, I successfully mod it so that when the MagLev is built the space fortress graphic appears.
- I have also removed and added buildings when you first colonize a planet.
- I have failed to add a popup when a system is colonized

PsiCorps · Feb 20, 2008

Hi Guys

And about the tech tree, shall I start to build it and make changes "on the fly" or wait for a more developed tree?.

I think we should work with what we have so far and see how it works. Once we've got the tech tree in place we can make amendments to it if something isn't working.

I've given an awful lot of thoughts to the events i've suggested in the original proposal and i've come to the conclusion that these will be the tool that gives us the real flavour to our Mod. We can take events from the series and place them in the mod but with no race specific angles. E.G. The presidential assasination of Luis Santiago could affect any player if they have a specific type of government. The Minbari surrendering to the humans could equally be the humans surrendering to the Narn after the loss of 80% of their (Narn) military and the Human fleet in the Narn home system. There are many other episodes we can use for events and i feel that these will be the hook that will get us a good review. Assuming of course we can get the mod to a playable state.

Premier Valle · Feb 20, 2008

PsiCorps said:
I think we should work with what we have so far and see how it works. Once we've got the tech tree in place we can make amendments to it if something isn't working.

Roger!

And some more Python news, lurking the other day in the forums I found what looks like a pre-FF mod, and had an event, when you colonize a new system you may find a "less advanced race" (or shall we say a primitive race? :mischief:

), I found the idea to be a very good one; it will cover those other minor races (like the Enphily (or whatever is written) Season 5 Ep. 1 - well within Drazi space, or the Norsai, the ones the Minbari look after, I believe they are spoken of in the episode when Delenn Commands the whitestars vs the drakh (season 4)).
So I found the event that gets executed when the city/system is built, I have modified it a little bit and seems to work so far, still needs a lot more work.
[yes I know it is not an original idea :blush:

, but I found it a good one].

Also I have found that the python files have a lot of references to the FF units, so if the cheat console is enabled a lot of exceptions come out, however if disabled it goes unnoticed, hurra! for exception handling!

I like the idea of the "Santiago affair" as an event, I think that one could be handled with xml, we'll see.

BTW: the event I'm talking about is a python only event, so no xml event editing so far.
A screenie:

PsiCorps · Feb 21, 2008

I like that event very much. It's a bit like the civ 3 goody hut result of an advanced tribe that wants to join your civ. :goodjob:

Looks like it is going to be possible to do a few more things than we thought we could.

A Babylon 5 Mod for the Final Frontier Mod

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