SANCTA Embassy & Intelligence

Kaleb · Mar 27, 2009

Yeah, we definitely should not offer Alphabet plus something else, as we if Cav get it just for Alpha it's better by far.

Provolution · Mar 27, 2009

I think we need to get that deal with Sancta, and get Metal Casting in time.

mikotian · Mar 27, 2009

well we don't actually plan on building any forges soon right? So there isn't a massive immediate need to get MC. As someone already pointed out, a few galleys can kill triremes.

Can we wait until we are done with aesthetics, and then offer them something to get MC. So even if we offer techs leading to literature, we'll still be ahead for GL? I know their production is better, and they have forges... but still... What does everyone think?

damnrunner · Mar 27, 2009

I expect we will have MC long before triremes show up. If we could build triremes would anyone on our team want to right now? I think not, as we have more pressing priorities. I assume team Sancta feels the same way right now. Of course they also have a long way to sail as well. And worse case scenario - we lose a fish farm - not the end of the world.

Some other options to trade would be monarchy or CoL. These are fairly valuable but would not be as bad to trade as Alpha.

However, I think getting MC from Sancta for cheap would be nice - but realistically they will want tech that I think we would rather hoard.

mikotian · Mar 27, 2009

Well it seems the situation is this: (correct me if I'm mistaken)
A) There are several techs we can trade. They seem to either lead to Literature. Or they are Monarchy or COL, which we'd rather keep. The big beaker techs--alpha, COL, Monarchy, are all what we don't want Sancta to have.

B) No immediate needs to get MC

C) We have potential trades coming from Saturn.

The questions to answer are:
1) How soon do we need MC?
2) How many turns, if we trade Alpha + something, does it take Sanc to build GL? I think we can do some calculations here? Can we venture a guess on Sanc's tech rate and production potential? And do they have a engineer that they plan to use? Do they plan to stiff us or will they build pyramids?
3) How likely, what time frame, will Saturn trades come through?

So the choices are:
1) Wait for Saturn Trades so we can offer HRB + Archery + something minor
2) Offer Alpha + something now
3) Offer COL, Monarchy + something now
4) Wait a while until we get closer to GL, and then discuss trade option (2), or (3)

Of course, it doesn't matter if Cav trades them Alpha+something for MC instead of us... that's like them choosing option (2) for us. If anything, I'd rather trade with Sanc directly than broker it through Cav.

What does everyone think?

Kaleb · Mar 27, 2009

I agree about not needing MC now. I can't see any cities building it. All are focussed on other things. Hazrat-e won't even have time to build a Forge before going for GL and it needs a Granary still, which is more urgent.

We should definitely not offer Alpha+Something for MC as this would undermine Cav's offer of just Alpha for MC which SANCTA seem to be willing to accept if they agree not to build Colossus.

donsig · Mar 27, 2009

Here's the most recent proposal. There have been no changes made.

Dear Daimyo General_W,

We are so sorry for the delay in responding and we are pleased to hear that you are willing to trade metal casting to us. We can offer you masonry and monotheism now. We realize this offer is a bit light and more negotiations are needed but we're just not sure what it is the Glorious Ninja want for metal casting. Can you enlighten us? Might we suggest archery and horseback riding?

donsig of Kazakhstan

Should we send this note? Let's have a straw vote. I am in favor of sending this. Anyone else?

Sommerswerd · Mar 28, 2009

Incorporating my previous comments/complaints by reference

I say that you should go ahead and send this... We need to send something... Something is better than nothing.

On another note, do folks think our comments about wanting to "build a statue of our beloved leader" had a chilling effect on our early efforts to get SANCTA to trade Metal Casting to us? :eek:

I don't remember for sure but I think it might have been my idea to put that language in the letter. I remember just thinking that it was funny... A Boratesque reference to the Colossus. But maybe SANCTA took it as a threat that we wanted Colossus and that is why they refused to trade MC to us...

Maybe I am overthinking this... but if this is what happened and it WAS my idea to put the language in, I screwed up...

Sorry everyone.

cav scout · Mar 28, 2009

If SANCTA is really intent on getting the Colossus then it wouldn't matter what we said or didn't say, they wouldn't trade MC period. But if they are going for it I would expect them to finish it soon (they do have copper afterall). So maybe they would be more comfortable trading MC once the Colossus is complete...

Worst case scenario we just get MS to research it after they finish Theology.

Sommerswerd · Mar 28, 2009

cav scout said:
Worst case scenario we just get MS to research it after they finish Theology.

I don't know about that... :dubious:

We have not had much luck so far in getting our allies to tech what we want them to... and we seem a little reluctant to punish allies or put pressure on them to tech what we want instead of what they want. It might be different with MS going forward, but we don't even know what they are teching right now... WTF is that about BTW?!? :mad:

Anyway I would be much more comfortable getting MC in a trade. Which is why I wish MC had won the next tech poll :cry:

I think if MC had won there would be more urgency to get MC in a trade instead. Oh well, spilled milk, enough crying

...

Which brings up another issue... for you and I especially Cavscout... If we refuse to gift Cavalieros CoL as they have requested AND they are the ones who get MC from SANCTA... :eek:

There might be some backlash, no?

cav scout · Mar 28, 2009

Well we don't refuse to give it to CAV, we just launch into negotiations over a new round of tech trading. CAV will push hard for what they want (duh) but once we politely stand up for our own interests they will compromise and work with us (remember the wb thing when we first met?). They profit more from the tech trading then we do so we need to start being more politely assertive. We need to start negotiating!

donsig · Mar 28, 2009

Ok, I sent thsi message to SANCTA's team email:

Dear Daimyo General_W,

We are so sorry for the delay in responding and we are pleased to hear that you are willing to trade metal casting to us. We can offer you masonry and monotheism now. We realize this offer is a bit light and more negotiations are needed but we're just not sure what it is the Glorious Ninja want for metal casting. Can you enlighten us? Might we suggest archery and horseback riding?

donsig of Kazakhstan

Kaleb · Apr 1, 2009

Ok, here's SANCTA's reply to Cav from donsig post in the Cav thread:

Nemaste Methos,
The Ninjas salute the wise and mighty Cavaleiros.

Sorry for our delay in getting back to you! As we told Methos in a
chat, your last proposal sparked heated debate in the halls of the
Ninja.

After much debate, we have to decline your offer - but we would like
to make you a counter proposal.

Before we get to nuts-and-bolts of our counter-proposal, we want to
offer a quick word of explanation.

Lets be real with each other here:
Its obvious from the pattern of tech trades that we have observed and
what you are (and are not) willing to trade with us that you have an
exclusive arrangement with the Kazakhs. We dont have any hard
feelings about this - after all, you met them first and we sorta
freaked the world out with our rapid build of the Oracle.
While we dont blame you, have no hard feelings, and look forward to
the day when things might change - it really makes no sense for us to
trade monopoly techs into an alliance were not part of. We're certain
you can understand.
Also - because the Mad Scientists are non-responsive/ uncooperative
for reasons known only to them - we stand to lose a lot by letting
your workboat pass through our borders. The lost team of Saturn is
starting to look like our best chance to find a friend. Were sure
this is all obvious to you - were just repeating it here for the sake
of moving beyond the subtle dance weve been doing into the real of
brass-tacks diplomacy. Hopefully youll recognize that this is better
for both of us at this point.

All that said, to say this: Were not going to be able to allow your
workboat to pass unless you do at least some kind of deal with us.
Sorry to make threats - we hate do it - but were not going to throw
away any advantage we have just to play nice with an alliance arrayed
against us. The nature of our current relationship demands hardball.
We expect nothing less from you.

Heres what wed like to propose:

A Modest Proposal for Salvaging Relations

1. We give you an Open Borders deal right away. In exchange,
you gift us Alphabet (449).
2. We promise to let your work boat live and sail on beyond our lands.
3. We give you Metal Casting (672) on turn 100*

*or you can have Metal Casting sooner, if you sign a
formal document swearing to not build the Colossus and not trade Metal
Casting to any other nation until after turn 100.

We hope you find this deal beneficial and we eagerly await your reply.

General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA

Light of Honesty
Can both unite and divide
Pray for unity

Cav's comments on this in the spoiler:

Spoiler :

Well, we knew the ruse would only last so long

Also - because the Mad Scientists are non-responsive/ uncooperative for reasons known only to them - we stand to lose a lot by letting your workboat pass through our borders. The lost team of Saturn is starting to look like our best chance to find a friend.

This is rather amusing, it seems like everyone's experience of MS is the same! We so have to keep up our charm offensive on Saturn. Leaving SANCTA with only MS will leave the two in the poo.

Provolution · Apr 1, 2009

Sancta and MS would be a match made in heaven.

Sommerswerd · Apr 2, 2009

We should not miss the chance to make SANCTA as the "1" in a 4 on 1 alliance. :goodjob:

donsig · Apr 2, 2009

mikotian said:
3) Offer COL, Monarchy + something now

Since we stil are unsure whether we want SANCTA to have alphabet should we send them a counter proposal along the lines suggested by Mikotian?

Kaleb · Apr 2, 2009

If we are thinking of ditching MS then we should give SAN techs that MS already have.

donsig · Apr 2, 2009

Kaleb said:
If we are thinking of ditching MS then we should give SAN techs that MS already have.

I think we're bound to MS by treaty until 500 AD.

Sommerswerd · Apr 2, 2009

We should not ditch MS yet. We should focus on bringing Saturn into the alliance to isolate SANCTA.

donsig · Apr 2, 2009

Chat log:

Spoiler :

Summary:
The trade for MC does not seem to be a priority for Team Cav. We could try offering SANCTA CoL for alphabet.

SANCTA Embassy & Intelligence

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