Lebanon survey: 87% support Hizbollah; support for US drops dramatically

Uiler

Emperor
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
1,849
A recent survey (24-26 July) shows the current attitudes in Lebanon about the conflict:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=74334

87% of Lebanese support Hizbollah's actions including a bare majority of Christians - 55% and 40% of Druze. I remember from another article that support from Sunnis while lower than Shi'ites is still high - around 60-70%.

63% of respondants believe the Hizbollah will defeat Israel.

Due to America's actions in this recent conflict, only 10% of Lebanese now consider America to be an "honest broker" in the debate, a dramatic drop from the 38.2% support America enjoyed in January 2006.

The majority of Lebanese are unhappy with their government's actions on a diplomatic level (64.3%) and about relief (54%). This varies amongst sect with 82.1% of Shiites and 64.8% of Sunnis, 50.1% Druze and 61.9% of Christians unhappy with the Lebanese government.

I guess what we derive from this is the vast majority of Lebanese are solidly united behind Hizbollah except for the Druze who make up only 6% of the population anyway. Even the Christian community is a (bare) majority behind Hizbollah. America's standing in Lebanon has basically crashed to rock-bottom. In contrast to the widespread support for Hizbollah, the Lebanese are not very happy with their government. Wait a moment! I thought this bombing campaign was supposed to destroy support for Hizbollah, increase the standing of the Lebanese government and I'm willing to bet not increase hatred of America.

I'd just to reiterate:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400807.html

Military historians have a name for the logic behind Israel's military campaign in Lebanon. It's called the "strategic bombing fallacy." Almost since the dawn of the age of military air power, strategists have been tempted by the prospect that the bombing of "strategic" targets such as infrastructure and transportation hubs could inflict such pain on a population that it would turn against its leaders and get them to surrender or compromise.

Unfortunately -- as the United States itself discovered during World War II and Vietnam, to cite just two examples -- strategic bombing has almost never worked. Far from bringing about the intended softening of the opposition, bombing tends to rally people behind their own leaders and cause them to dig in against outsiders who, whatever the justification, are destroying their homeland.
 
Wouldn't you be unhappy if your city is being reduced to dust by bombers, cut off from the outside world, and ignored by the international community?

One thing does surprise me that more than half of christians supports Hezbollah. Why is this the case? Maybe because it's the only organisation capable of defending the country against Israeli attacks.
 
taillesskangaru said:
Wouldn't you be unhappy if your city is being reduced to dust by bombers, cut off from the outside world, and ignored by the international community?

One thing does surprise me that more than half of christians supports Hezbollah.

Yes, surprising isn't it. Just goes the show the real effects of the bombing campaign on Lebanese politics. I'm willing to bet that support for Hizbollah was much much lower in Lebanon before the bombing campaign started. I think the bombing campaign has given further support for the idea of Hizbollah as not a Shi'ite outfit or a Muslim outfit but a nationalist resistance movement protecting Lebanon against its enemies when its own government is too weak or cowardly to act.
 
Yup, but when they are asked to disarm Hezbollah to avoid further troubles- they say "we are too weak".

You know what, those guys support Hezbollah too:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/27/zawahiri.tape/index.html

Al Qaeda calls on Muslims to fight Israel
Al Qaeda No. 2 tells Muslims in Lebanon, 'We will stand with you'

Friday, July 28, 2006; Posted: 2:37 a.m. EDT (06:37 GMT)

DOHA, Qatar (CNN) -- With a poster of the burning World Trade Center behind him, Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant appeared on tape Thursday calling on Muslims to join the fight against Israel and "rise up seeking martyrdom and attack the crusaders and Zionists."
 
Uiler said:
A recent survey (24-26 July) shows the current attitudes in Lebanon about the conflict:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=74334

87% of Lebanese support Hizbollah's actions including a bare majority of Christians - 55% and 40% of Druze. I remember from another article that support from Sunnis while lower than Shi'ites is still high - around 60-70%.

63% of respondants believe the Hizbollah will defeat Israel.

Then they are more delusional than I thought. Israel should expand the bombardment and ground operations in southern Lebanon to return them back into reality.

Due to America's actions in this recent conflict, only 10% of Lebanese now consider America to be an "honest broker" in the debate, a dramatic drop from the 38.2% support America enjoyed in January 2006.

The majority of Lebanese are unhappy with their government's actions on a diplomatic level (64.3%) and about relief (54%). This varies amongst sect with 82.1% of Shiites and 64.8% of Sunnis, 50.1% Druze and 61.9% of Christians unhappy with the Lebanese government.

I guess what we derive from this is the vast majority of Lebanese are solidly united behind Hizbollah except for the Druze who make up only 6% of the population anyway. Even the Christian community is a (bare) majority behind Hizbollah. America's standing in Lebanon has basically crashed to rock-bottom. In contrast to the widespread support for Hizbollah, the Lebanese are not very happy with their government. Wait a moment! I thought this bombing campaign was supposed to destroy support for Hizbollah, increase the standing of the Lebanese government and I'm willing to bet not increase hatred of America.

So, in other word, countries shouldn't defend themselves because their enemies would hate them more then they already do?

I just want to say that Hezbollah started the conflict, Hezbollah took Lebanon hostage and Hezbollah, by its stubborness, exposed Lebanon to bombardment.

If Lebanese are so stupid that they don't see that, I don't have any sympathies for them at all.

EDIT: typo :wallbash:
 
Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant appeared on tape Thursday calling on Muslims to join the fight against Israel and "rise up seeking martyrdom and attack the crusaders and Zionists."

come and do the dirty work we are too scared to come out from under our rocks to do for ourselves.

basically kill yourself because we asked you to. seems ******ed to kill yourself when living means you can kill more of your enemy.

no wonder they never make any headway!

morons.
 
Winner said:
Then they are more delusional than I thought. Israel should expand the bombardment and ground operations in southern Lebanon to return them back into reality.

Israel tried to destroy Hezbollah before, in the Lebanese civil war. They were at it for ten years, give or take. They failed.
 
Winner said:
Then they are more delusional than I thought. Israel should expand the bombardment and ground operations in southern Lebanon to return them back into reality.



So, in other word, countries shouldn't defeat themselves because their enemies would hate them more then they already do?

I just want to say that Hezbollah started the conflict, Hezbollah took Lebanon hostage and Hezbollah, by its stubborness, exposed Lebanon to bombardment.

If Lebanese are so stupid that they don't see that, I don't have any sympathies for them at all.


Now if the aim of Israel's attacks on Lebanon were in fact to defeat Lebanon you may have a point. However, the aim of Israel's attacks on Lebanon was not to defeat Lebanon but to "persuade" the people of Lebanon to turn *against* Hizbollah. The target was NOT Lebanon as a whole but Hizbollah. Given the distance between Israel's aims in the current military conflict and what it has actually achieved, yes the current military action is a failure. Not just a failure, a high farce.

Finally, you don't understand that Hizbollah in order to win doesn't need to actually win in terms of say killing lots of Israeli troops. Hizbollah in order to win just needs to survive and maintain its public support. Israel could lose 10 men and Hizbollah ten times that. But if Israel leaves Lebanon and Hizbollah is still entrenched in S. Lebanon, Hizbollah would have won. Victory for Hizbollah and Israel are not the same things.
 
taillesskangaru said:
Israel tried to destroy Hezbollah before, in the Lebanese civil war. They were at it for ten years, give or take. They failed.

Actually, Hizbollah would never have existed if Israel hadn't invaded Lebanon. Actually here's something. Prior to Israel's invasion of Lebanon, the Lebanese hated the Palestinian militants in their midst. Israel invades, the Lebanese *welcome* them. Israel then proceeds to behave so badly that the Lebanese turn against them and Hizbollah is created.

If you (general you, not the poster I'm responding to) can't see the parallels with the current conflict you are blind? Do people honestly think support for Hizbollah would be that strong, even amongst their traditional enemies like the Lebanese Christians who fought *against* Hizbollah for years in the civil war if the bombing campaign didn't wrought so much destruction and suffering? All the news I've seen indicates that initially Lebanese weren't sure whether to support Hizbollah or not. In fact there was a lot of criticism of Hizbollah. However, the bombing campaign turned that completely around. It was seen as so highly disproportionate that people stopped blaming Hizbollah.

Also, it was during Israel's invasion of Lebanon that Islamic militants discovered suicide bombing. Hizbollah later taught the Palestinian militants how to go about suicide bombing and well, I think Israel has a lot to regret from its last invasion of Lebanon.
 
Uiler said:
Now if the aim of Israel's attacks on Lebanon were in fact to defeat Lebanon you may have a point. However, the aim of Israel's attacks on Lebanon was not to defeat Lebanon but to "persuade" the people of Lebanon to turn *against* Hizbollah.

I don't think so. Israel targeted buildings and infrastructure used or somehow connected to Hezbollah. It is not strategic bombing as you say, it is tactical bombing.

The target was NOT Lebanon as a whole but Hizbollah. Given the distance between Israel's aims in the current military conflict and what it has actually achieved, yes the current military action is a failure. Not just a failure, a high farce.

Again, that's exagerrated. Israel's target is to get rid of Hezbollah or, at least, secure the northern Israel. This can surely be done on the ground only, but it is also necessary to cause as big damage to Hezbollah as possible. Thus the tactical bombing.

Finally, you don't understand that Hizbollah in order to win doesn't need to actually win in terms of say killing lots of Israeli troops. Hizbollah in order to win just needs to survive and maintain its public support. Israel could lose 10 men and Hizbollah ten times that. But if Israel leaves Lebanon and Hizbollah is still entrenched in S. Lebanon, Hizbollah would have won. Victory for Hizbollah and Israel are not the same things.

That's indeed true, as in all wars against guerillas.

Israel must not play their game. Tactical bombing has to be more intensive, the aim should be to effectively cut off the southern Lebanon from the rest of the country. Then, it will be necessary to send ground troops to southern Lebanon and destroy Hezbollah. After that, an international force will be needed to maintain a buffer zone in southern Lebanon.

The worst thing world could do now would be to force Israel to unilaterally stop the hostilites, with no measures taken against Hezbollah.
 
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/15106560.htm

Even in the Christian sections of Beirut, which are largely immune to the violence, anger at Israel is growing.

"If they keep targeting civilians like this, they're only hurting themselves," said Riad Khattar, the Christian owner of an Internet cafe in Beirut.

"Even the Christians are now starting to support Hezbollah. This was not the fact before the war. By killing civilians, they are making Hezbollah stronger and stronger."

But the news that most riled Khattar, 35, was Rice's statement last week that the violence in Lebanon was merely the "birth pangs of a new Middle East."

"We were surprised because we sure didn't feel" birth pangs, Khattar said. "We feel bombs."
 
Well, that's not what the Lebanese think, including pro-Israeli Lebanese Christians (they have been accused of being Israeli supports and allies of Ariel Sharon):

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.321569200&par=0

Beirut, 16 July (AKI) - A top official of Lebanon's Christian Phalange party who has been repeatedly accused of being an Israeli agent, says Israel is mistaken if it thinks it can destroy Hezbollah militarily. "Tel Aviv won't succeed because Hezbollah is equipped with bunkers and other infrastructure," that would make it impossible to root out all the Shiite groups militants, Karim Pakraduni told Adnkronos International (AKI).

"Israel's is renacting a scenario already witnessed during the Lebanese civil war [in the late 1970s and 1980s]. Today it wants to destroy Hezbollah at any cost while then its aims was to annihilate Yasser Arafat's PLO," he says.

"Tel Aviv also wants to bring Lebanon to its knees and force it to an unconditional surrender."

Pakraduni, during the height of civil strife in Lebanon in the early 1980s, was closely associated with another top Phalange official Elie Hobeika, who was believed to have close links with Israeli authorities and in particular with Ariel Sharon.

Pakrudumi again denies any ties with Tel Aviv and says he is convinced the Jewish state will not send ground troops into Lebanon.

"Past experience has taught the Israelis that their losses would be too great. I think they will continue to attack by sea and air, and I don't rule out the possibility that they may dispatch commandos to try to assassinate [Hamas leader Hassan] Nasrallah," he tells AKI.

"However I think will they may destroy Lebanon, the Israelis won't destroy Hezbollah," he adds.

Pakraduni is also convinced that Syria will not be dragged into the armed conflict with the Israelis.

Israel is targeting Lebanon, he says because they have "never considered Lebanon a sovereign state, just a battleground carved up by different religious an political groups.

"Israel has never respected us because it only respects those with a military might that can instill fear," he says.

As for the Phalange, Pakraduni says the group will not take up arms as in the past but will work towards maintaining national unity.

"We are squarely behind the government and the President of the Republic [EMile Lahoud]"

I like that quote, "However I think will they may destroy Lebanon, the Israelis won't destroy Hezbollah." And remember that comes from a pro-Israeli Lebanese Christian. And "Tel Aviv also wants to bring Lebanon to its knees".

If even formerly pro-Israeli Lebanese Christians hold this opinion that Lebanon is being subjected to collective punishment, I don't think we have to imagine what the Muslims are thinking.

And this is probably the reason why even the Christians are lining up behind Hizbollah. They don't see the bombing as tactical bombing as Hizbollah, they see it as deliberate collective punishment.

Also I'm not sure whether the Israeli really are just militarily incompetent or tactical bombing is just a ruse. Because the way Hizbollah is organised air strikes are next to useless (see previous threads, including from an Israeli about how Hizbollah are organized). Either they know this and just really incompetent or they're using tactical bombing as an excuse.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/28/stories/2006072812300100.htm

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to the Hizbollah." Israeli defense minister.

I guess if it moves, you shoot.

And you know destroying whole villages at a time:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_South_Lebanon.html

Great pin-point tactical striking there.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2269750,00.html

“Nothing is safe (in Lebanon), as simple as that,” (Brigadier General Dan Halutz, the Israeli Chief of Staff)

If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

Oh and let's the add the part about 10 to one reprisals:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291987290&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

A high-ranking IAF officer caused a storm on Monday in an off-record briefing during which he told reporters that IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz had ordered the military to destroy 10 buildings in Beirut in retaliation to every Katyusha rocket strike on Haifa.

The officer said that the equation was created by Halutz and that every rocket strike on Haifa would be answered by IAF missile strikes on 10 12-story buildings in the Beirut neighborhood of Dahiya, a Hizbullah stronghold. Since the beginning of Operation Change of Direction, launched on July 12 following the abduction of two soldiers during a Hizbullah cross-border attack, over 80 buildings in the neighborhood have been destroyed.

After the officer's remarks were published on The Jerusalem Post website as well as other Israeli news sites, the IDF Spokesperson's Office released a statement insinuating that reporters had misquoted the senior officer and claimed that the publications were false and that Halutz had never issued such a directive.

The IDF Spokesperson's Office later retracted its accusation that reporters had misquoted the officer and issued a second statement claiming that the high-ranking officer had made a mistake and was wrong in claiming that Halutz had issued such a directive.

Sure the IDF retracted it later, but given he later also said the thing about nothing in Lebanon being safe from Israel I don't think that this statement was really misquoted.

No, you could be right, it could be tatical bombing. They just don't really care how many civilians get killed. You see they're not flattening villages for fun and enjoyment, it's just the missile from somewhere near it and well, I guess just bomb the whole area to be sure. Oh, there's a village with people in it. Could be civilians. Oh well, too bad. That's tactical I guess in a way. I guess one could say Israel is not targetting civilians *on purpose*. It's just they don't really care. As the Israeli leaders themselves say, "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to the Hizbollah." and “Nothing is safe (in Lebanon), as simple as that.” I guess those two quotes from the top Israeli leaders says it all really.

And the following analysis that this bombing campaign is aimed at convincing Lebanese to drop support for Hizbollah comes from a former IDF commander who commanded battalions in S. Lebanon and the Golan Heights:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400807.html

According to retired Israeli army Col. Gal Luft, the goal of the campaign is to "create a rift between the Lebanese population and Hezbollah supporters." The message to Lebanon's elite, he said, is this: "If you want your air conditioning to work and if you want to be able to fly to Paris for shopping, you must pull your head out of the sand and take action toward shutting down Hezbollah-land."



Winner said:
I don't think so. Israel targeted buildings and infrastructure used or somehow connected to Hezbollah. It is not strategic bombing as you say, it is tactical bombing.



Again, that's exagerrated. Israel's target is to get rid of Hezbollah or, at least, secure the northern Israel. This can surely be done on the ground only, but it is also necessary to cause as big damage to Hezbollah as possible. Thus the tactical bombing.



That's indeed true, as in all wars against guerillas.

Israel must not play their game. Tactical bombing has to be more intensive, the aim should be to effectively cut off the southern Lebanon from the rest of the country. Then, it will be necessary to send ground troops to southern Lebanon and destroy Hezbollah. After that, an international force will be needed to maintain a buffer zone in southern Lebanon.

The worst thing world could do now would be to force Israel to unilaterally stop the hostilites, with no measures taken against Hezbollah.
 
Yup, but when they are asked to disarm Hezbollah to avoid further troubles- they say "we are too weak".

You know what, those guys support Hezbollah too:
I hardly think what Israel are doing now is helping disband Hizbollah, more like making things miserable for everyone over there. Nobody would have faulted Israel if they bring the fight to Hizbollah without killing so many innocents, but noooo! Israel has to bomb the whole of Lebanon back to the stoneage, your nation failed the first time around, can we hope that it would be better this time around?
 
I like that quote, "However I think will they may destroy Lebanon, the Israelis won't destroy Hezbollah." And remember that comes from a pro-Israeli Lebanese Christian. And "Tel Aviv also wants to bring Lebanon to its knees".

If even formerly pro-Israeli Lebanese Christians hold this opinion that Lebanon is being subjected to collective punishment, I don't think we have to imagine what the Muslims are thinking.

It's just it - their perception. They did nothing about Hezbollah and now, they're paying for it. If they want someone to blame, they should blame themselves.

And this is probably the reason why even the Christians are lining up behind Hizbollah. They don't see the bombing as tactical bombing as Hizbollah, they see it as deliberate collective punishment.

Also I'm not sure whether the Israeli really are just militarily incompetent or tactical bombing is just a ruse. Because the way Hizbollah is organised air strikes are next to useless (see previous threads, including from an Israeli about how Hizbollah are organized). Either they know this and just really incompetent or they're using tactical bombing as an excuse.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/28/stories/2006072812300100.htm

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to the Hizbollah." Israeli defense minister.

I guess if it moves, you shoot.

And you know destroying whole villages at a time:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_South_Lebanon.html

Great pin-point tactical striking there.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2269750,00.html

“Nothing is safe (in Lebanon), as simple as that,” (Brigadier General Dan Halutz, the Israeli Chief of Staff)

If that's not a threat I don't know what is.

Oh and let's the add the part about 10 to one reprisals:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291987290&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull



Sure the IDF retracted it later, but given he later also said the thing about nothing in Lebanon being safe from Israel I don't think that this statement was really misquoted.

No, you could be right, it could be tatical bombing. They just don't really care how many civilians get killed. You see they're not flattening villages for fun and enjoyment, it's just the missile from somewhere near it and well, I guess just bomb the whole area to be sure. Oh, there's a village with people in it. Could be civilians. Oh well, too bad. That's tactical I guess in a way. I guess one could say Israel is not targetting civilians *on purpose*. It's just they don't really care. As the Israeli leaders themselves say, "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to the Hizbollah." and “Nothing is safe (in Lebanon), as simple as that.” I guess those two quotes from the top Israeli leaders says it all really.

Come on. If they really didn't care, the casaulties would be much higher. On several occasions, they used leaflets to warn the civilians. As a result, Hezbollah fighters escaped.

Also, I wonder how many of those dead civilians were Hezbollah members or supporters.

By this I don't want to say that it is OK to kill civilians by bombardment. I only wonder why people consider this as "big" casaulties. You know, American bombardment of Serbia killed more than 1,000 civilians, probably even more. Unlike Israel, NATO wasn't even threatened by Serbia. From some reason, Serbian casaulties were overlooked as "necessary".

Fact is that civilian casaulties are unavoidable, even if you have the most modern weaponry available. Israel is showing great restraint, because if they really wanted to start strategic bombardment, they could flatten entire cities and villages.

And the following analysis that this bombing campaign is aimed at convincing Lebanese to drop support for Hizbollah comes from a former IDF commander who commanded battalions in S. Lebanon and the Golan Heights:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400807.html

Sure taking out the entire electricity supply of the region probably hurts Hizbollah a bit, but since I suspect their bunkers have their own generators, I suspect that this doesn't really affect them that much. It's sure obvious that their missiles don't require mains electricity. It sure hurts the civilian population though. Now either, the Israeli want to hurt Hizbollah even a little bit and don't give a damn if it hurts civilians ten times as much or they are doing it deliberately to punish the population. Could be both. Or they're just incompetent and don't realise that taking out the electricity supply of S. Lebanon is not going to hurt Hizbollah.

Wait, what do you expect? That Israel should place the welfare of Lebanese citizens over its legitimate security concerns? Sorry, but with this approach you can't wage any war. Israel is trying to minimize the civilian casaulties, but this is the only thing Lebanese can ask for.

Either they are completely incompetent and don't realise that air strikes are not going to hurt hidden bunkers in caves and deep in the forest which you cannot see from the air or they're just hoping for a lucky hit and don't care how many civilians get killed as long as one bunker gets destroyed or they're doing it deliberately to scare the populace. Incompetence, callousness or deliberate collective punishment? Which one do you want?

Israel is attacking the infrastructure, which is or may be used by its enemies or which can help its enemies in their fight, somehow. Yes, it also hurts the civilians, but that is, sorry to say that, their problem. They should ask their government, why it allowed Hezbollah to draw their country in this war.
 
I guess I should stick this on a new post instead:

Also, the idea that Hizbollah hides amongst civilians is apparently a myth:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

The handful of people in the town include some from Hezbollah's political wing, as well as volunteers keeping an eye on things while the residents are gone. Off to the side, as we watch the Israelis pummel ridgelines on the outskirts of town, one of the political operatives explains that the fighters never come near the town, reinforcing what other Hezbollah people have told me over the years.

Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered "Hezbollah" installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons -- they did, after all, take over an apartment building against the protests of the landlord, knowing full well it would be bombed -- but for military ones.

"You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon," a Lebanese military intelligence official, now retired, once told me. "They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They're completely afraid of collaborators. They know this is what breaks the Palestinians -- no discipline and too much showing off."

Perhaps once a year, Hezbollah will hold a military parade in the south, in which its weapons and fighters appear. Media access to these parades is tightly limited and controlled. Unlike the fighters in the half dozen other countries where I have covered insurgencies, Hezbollah fighters do not like to show off for the cameras. In Iraq, with some risk taking, you can meet with and even watch the resistance guys in action. (At least you could during my last time there.) In Afghanistan, you can lunch with Taliban fighters if you're willing to walk a day or so in the mountains. In Gaza and the West Bank, the Fatah or Hamas fighter is almost ubiquitous with his mask, gun and sloganeering to convince the Western journalist of the justice of his cause.

The Hezbollah guys, on the other hand, know that letting their fighters near outsiders of any kind -- journalists or Lebanese, even Hezbollah supporters -- is stupid. In three trips over the last week to the south, where I came near enough to the fighting to hear Israeli artillery, and not just airstrikes, I saw exactly no fighters. Guys with radios with the look of Hezbollah always found me. But no fighters on corners, no invitations to watch them shoot rockets at the Zionist enemy, nothing that can be used to track them.

Even before the war, on many of my trips to the south, the Lebanese army, or the ubiquitous guy on a motorbike with a radio, would halt my trip and send me over to Tyre to get permission from a Hezbollah official before I could proceed, usually with strict limits on where I could go.

Every other journalist I know who has covered Hezbollah has had the same experience. A fellow journalist, a Lebanese who has covered them for two decades, knows only one military guy who will admit it, and he never talks or grants interviews. All he will say is, "I'll be gone for a few months for training. I'll call when I'm back." Presumably his friends and neighbors may suspect something, but no one says anything.

Hezbollah's political members say they have little or no access to the workings of the fighters. This seems to be largely true: While they obviously hear and know more than the outside world, the firewall is strong.

Israel, however, has chosen to treat the political members of Hezbollah as if they were fighters. And by targeting the civilian wing of the group, which supplies much of the humanitarian aid and social protection for the poorest people in the south, they are targeting civilians.

Earlier in the week, I stood next to a giant crater that had smashed through the highway between Tyre and Sidon -- the only route of escape for most of the people in the far south. Overhead, Israeli fighters and drones circled above the city and its outlying areas and regular blasts of bombs and naval artillery could be heard.

As we drive south toward Tyre, we soon pass a new series of scars on the highway: shrapnel, hubcaps and broken glass. A car that had been maybe five minutes ahead of us was hit by an Israeli shell. Three of its passengers were wounded, and it was heading north to the Hammound hospital at Sidon. We turned around because of the attack and followed the car to Sidon. Those unhurt staked out the parking lot of the hospital, looking for the Western journalists they were convinced had called in the strike. Luckily my Iraqi fixer smelled trouble and we got out of there. Probably nothing would have happened -- mostly they were just freaked-out country people who didn't like the coincidence of an Israeli attack and a car full of journalists driving past.

So the analysts talking on cable news about Hezbollah "hiding within the civilian population" clearly have spent little time if any in the south Lebanon war zone and don't know what they're talking about. Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion.

And the civilians? They see themselves as targeted regardless of their affiliation. They are enraged at Israel and at the United States, the only two countries on earth not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Lebanese of all persuasions think the United States and Israel believe that Lebanese lives are cheaper than Israeli ones. And many are now saying that they want to fight.

From all I heard, the Hizbollah fighters hide in bunkers mostly in the caves, underground tunnels, hills, forests. So why the hell are the Israelis bombing civilian apartment blocks in the cities when the fighters don't even stay there. It's like bombing Kabul to get at the Taliban whose fighters are in the countryside and mountains. The Hizbollah politicians and civilian sympathizers do live in said apartment blocks, but as the article says, they don't have much communications with the fighters who are paranoid about leaks. If you want to get the fighters you attack the cave and underground bunkers. Seems to me that the Israelis have absolutely no idea where they are and are either (1) venting their fustrations on civilians and/or (2) hoping they'll somehow get lucky and maybe by some fortuitous chance they will by sheer luck strike a Hizbollah fighter and/or (3) hoping if they hit the civilians enough they will tell the Israelis where they are which they can't anyway because none of the Hizbollah members who are not fighters actually know where the bunkers are due to the fighting branch's paranoia. Either way, there's not much tactical about it.
 
Winner said:
Israel is attacking the infrastructure, which is or may be used by its enemies or which can help its enemies in their fight, somehow. Yes, it also hurts the civilians, but that is, sorry to say that, their problem. They should ask their government, why it allowed Hezbollah to draw their country in this war.


Read my next post. The Israelis are not even bombing the places the Hizbollah fighters are. The Hizbollah fighters are paranoid.

How is it tactical to attack apartment blocks in cities when the Israelis know the Hizbollah fighters never stay there? How is it tactical to take out the electricity to cities when the Hizbollah bunkers out in the country probably aren't even connected to mains power? If it's all so great tactics, why is Hizbollah still able to launch so many missiles? If it's tactical there are some serious issues here. Maybe if the IDF actually got off its bum, be willing to take some serious casulties instead of calling air strikes for the smallest thing and attacking "maybe if we get lucky targets", and actually attack the heavily fortified *bunkers* where the majority of fighters and their missiles are hiding instead of random apartment blocks they will get some results. Dropping bombs on Hizbollah bunkers is tactical. Dropping bombs on some random apartment block in Beirut just on the off-chance you might find a fighter there is not. What about searching for the damn bunkers and then bombing them to smithereens? Geez, anyone in the IDF ever heard of that? This is difficult, dangerous and well, really difficult. The IDF is thus taking the easier routing of bombing random apartment blocks. There's not much tactics about that.

And by the way, Israel has flattened entire villages.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_South_Lebanon.html

And the Israeli government is saying it wants to flatten all villages with bombs before any troops enter to minimise IDF casulties, expressing disdain about even the mention of civilian casulties as if they didn't matter:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...srael_decides_not_to_expand_offensive/?page=3

So, what's this thing about not flattening villages?

And as your comparing it to the 1000 Serbian dead. So far there are 600 civilians counted as dead. And the Lebanese government believe that there are at least a few hundred buried under rubble. It's pretty close to 1000 and the fighting is not over by a long shot. Worse than that though the entire infrastructure of S. Lebanon has been destroyed - roads, bridges, electiricty. Everything is gone.
 
Part of the problems with the Israeli "drop a 1000 hammers and let's hope we hit an ant and damn all the beatles who accidentally die" tactics could come from the increasing problems with the IDF, namely hubris:

http://billmon.org/archives/002529.html

It's beginning to look as if the Israeli Defense Force (if not the entire Israeli political and military establishment) may be suffering from the same syndrome -- the disease of hubris. This isn't the army of '67, or even '73, which believed the country's survival was at stake and constantly worried that Israel's qualitative edge might be too narrow to outweigh the quantitative advantages enjoyed by its enemies. The years of U.S. largesse and bloated procurement budgets, the state-of-the-art tanks and fighters, the fascination with technology and push-button war, plus the pitiful state of the Syrian Army and Air Force -- Israel's remaining conventional front-line foes -- all appear to have infected the IDF with the arrogance and complacency that plagued the United States in Vietnam.

Couple that with the long frustrating years spent waging an endless, thankless fourth generation war in the West Bank and Gaza, and it appears the IDF is just aching to fight a normal, conventional battle in which it can use all those shiny toys the Israeli and U.S. taxpayers have bought for it.

Ilan Pappe, a historian (of the radical revisionist school) at the University of Haifa, says he's been watching for the past two decades as former students, now high-ranking military officers, chafed under the constraints the occupation and the various intifadas placed on them:

The Israeli army’s main vision for the battlefield is today still that of ‘shock and awe’ rather than chasing snipers, suicide bombers and political activists. The ‘low intensity’ war questions the invincibility of the army and erodes its capability to engage in a ‘real’ war.

This inability to conceive of guerrilla ambushes or suicide bombings or hit-and-run rocket attacks or the assassination of collaborators as "real war" seems to be one of the chief symptoms of military hubris -- almost as incapacitating as the feverish craving for ever greater doses of air power. One can only wonder what the hard men of the old Irgun or the Stern Gang would have made of it. But, as in Vietnam, contempt for a particular mode of war appears to have induced an equally strong, if unwise, contempt for the men and women fighting on the other side in that war.

Part of it, perhaps, stems from a sense of offended morality: How can people who send suicide bombers to blow up buses and night clubs possibly be considered "worthy" opponents? The Palestinians and the Lebanese might ask the same question about people who fire missiles at old men in wheel chairs or wreak death and destruction on an entire country because a single Army patrol was ambushed. But that's not the point. Effectiveness in war isn't a moral attribute, and leaders who forget that fact do so at their peril -- or rather, at the peril of their troops.

This is even more speculative, but I think there could be an additional, if subtle, psychological incentive for the Israeli defense establishment to underestimate the country's non-conventional enemies. As one of my favorite Israeli writers, Meron Benvenisti, has pointed out, the IDF, like the Israeli Labor Party, has always been more comfortable treating the dispute with the Arabs as a war between states, instead of an inter-communal conflict. (Interestingly, it was the old Likud, under Menachem Begin, that was most willing to do the opposite, but then Begin was one of the hard men of the old Jewish underground, and had no illusions.)

For many Israelis, even those on the left, admitting that the war is at its core a struggle between two communities inhabiting the same piece of land opens up too many cans of worms. It calls into question the artificial distinction between Israel "proper" and the occupied territories, which in turn casts doubt on the justness and feasibility of the two-state solution -- that sacred political icon which all right-thinking people are supposed to kneel before and worship. It also tends to reduce the Israeli Army to the same status as the Bosnian Serb militia (albeit with much better hardware) and nobody, least of all the proud officers of the IDF, wants to look at themselves that way.

But discounting the inter-communal conflict as something other than "real" war also requires that those fighting it be discounted as something other than "real" soldiers. If Pappe is right, this seems to have begat a peculiar mixture of loathing and self-loathing in the minds of many Israeli officers -- not the best psychological state for accurately estimating the enemy's capabilities and intentions.

If this revulsion (and painful memories of past misadventures in South Lebanon) have carried over into similar attitudes towards Hezbollah, then the Israelis have made a very big mistake, and are paying for it now.

The IDF may not like fourth generation war, but not liking something isn't a strategy for fighting it.

Of course, the flip side of the IDF's hatred for low-intensity conflict is a burning desire to come to grips with a "real" enemy. According to Pappe, the current operations against Gaza and Lebanon have allowed the generals to work out some of their frustrations, but it may not be enough:

It can still deteriorate into a full scale war with the hapless army of Syria and my ex-students may even push by provocative actions towards such an eventuality. And, if you believe what you read in the local press here, it may even escalate into a long distance war with Iran, backed by a supreme American umbrella.

Let us hope the professor exaggerates. Having blown the Syrian Air Force out of the sky once (in 1983) it's not clear what strategic goals the Israelis could achieve by doing it again. And any march on Damascus would only end in the same quagmire the U.S. Army found at the end of its drive to Baghdad, except that it would hardly be conducted with the kind of decency and chivalry we've come to expect in Iraq.

As for taking on Iran, well that decision still rests with a higher authority, and while Bill Kristol and David Horowitz can burn up the Internets with their cries to let loose the dogs of war (again), I'm getting the impression that the Cheney administration has had its fill of world wars of choice, at least for the moment. It may be that the IDF is going to have to content itself with shelling and bombing defenseless population centers, at least until after our November elections. But I could be wrong; it has been known to happen. And if I am, and the Third World War, or Fourth, or whatever, now looms, well, it's certainly been nice knowing you all.

The irony of all this is that Israel has the world's leading authority on fourth generation war -- the man who literally wrote the book -- at its immediate disposal, and yet at the moment it looks almost as unprepared to fight one as Uncle Sam. I'm a little surprised by that, but then again the tribes of Israel have something of a track record of ignoring their prophets.

Even the pro-let's bash the hell out of the Lebanese people are worried about the IDF:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742261.html

Bush and the public assumed that the army knew what it was doing, and that Israel, with its superiority in manpower, weaponry and technology, would be able to put an end to Hezbollah as a menace to Israel. Little by little, however, a worrying picture has begun to emerge: Instead of an army that is small but smart, we are catching glimpses of an army that is big, rich and dumb.
 
Part of the problems with the Israeli "drop a 1000 hammers and let's hope we hit an ant and damn all the beatles who accidentally die" tactics could come from the increasing problems with the IDF, namely hubris:

http://billmon.org/archives/002529.html

It's beginning to look as if the Israeli Defense Force (if not the entire Israeli political and military establishment) may be suffering from the same syndrome -- the disease of hubris. This isn't the army of '67, or even '73, which believed the country's survival was at stake and constantly worried that Israel's qualitative edge might be too narrow to outweigh the quantitative advantages enjoyed by its enemies. The years of U.S. largesse and bloated procurement budgets, the state-of-the-art tanks and fighters, the fascination with technology and push-button war, plus the pitiful state of the Syrian Army and Air Force -- Israel's remaining conventional front-line foes -- all appear to have infected the IDF with the arrogance and complacency that plagued the United States in Vietnam.

Couple that with the long frustrating years spent waging an endless, thankless fourth generation war in the West Bank and Gaza, and it appears the IDF is just aching to fight a normal, conventional battle in which it can use all those shiny toys the Israeli and U.S. taxpayers have bought for it.

Ilan Pappe, a historian (of the radical revisionist school) at the University of Haifa, says he's been watching for the past two decades as former students, now high-ranking military officers, chafed under the constraints the occupation and the various intifadas placed on them:

The Israeli army’s main vision for the battlefield is today still that of ‘shock and awe’ rather than chasing snipers, suicide bombers and political activists. The ‘low intensity’ war questions the invincibility of the army and erodes its capability to engage in a ‘real’ war.

This inability to conceive of guerrilla ambushes or suicide bombings or hit-and-run rocket attacks or the assassination of collaborators as "real war" seems to be one of the chief symptoms of military hubris -- almost as incapacitating as the feverish craving for ever greater doses of air power. One can only wonder what the hard men of the old Irgun or the Stern Gang would have made of it. But, as in Vietnam, contempt for a particular mode of war appears to have induced an equally strong, if unwise, contempt for the men and women fighting on the other side in that war.

Part of it, perhaps, stems from a sense of offended morality: How can people who send suicide bombers to blow up buses and night clubs possibly be considered "worthy" opponents? The Palestinians and the Lebanese might ask the same question about people who fire missiles at old men in wheel chairs or wreak death and destruction on an entire country because a single Army patrol was ambushed. But that's not the point. Effectiveness in war isn't a moral attribute, and leaders who forget that fact do so at their peril -- or rather, at the peril of their troops.

This is even more speculative, but I think there could be an additional, if subtle, psychological incentive for the Israeli defense establishment to underestimate the country's non-conventional enemies. As one of my favorite Israeli writers, Meron Benvenisti, has pointed out, the IDF, like the Israeli Labor Party, has always been more comfortable treating the dispute with the Arabs as a war between states, instead of an inter-communal conflict. (Interestingly, it was the old Likud, under Menachem Begin, that was most willing to do the opposite, but then Begin was one of the hard men of the old Jewish underground, and had no illusions.)

For many Israelis, even those on the left, admitting that the war is at its core a struggle between two communities inhabiting the same piece of land opens up too many cans of worms. It calls into question the artificial distinction between Israel "proper" and the occupied territories, which in turn casts doubt on the justness and feasibility of the two-state solution -- that sacred political icon which all right-thinking people are supposed to kneel before and worship. It also tends to reduce the Israeli Army to the same status as the Bosnian Serb militia (albeit with much better hardware) and nobody, least of all the proud officers of the IDF, wants to look at themselves that way.

But discounting the inter-communal conflict as something other than "real" war also requires that those fighting it be discounted as something other than "real" soldiers. If Pappe is right, this seems to have begat a peculiar mixture of loathing and self-loathing in the minds of many Israeli officers -- not the best psychological state for accurately estimating the enemy's capabilities and intentions.

If this revulsion (and painful memories of past misadventures in South Lebanon) have carried over into similar attitudes towards Hezbollah, then the Israelis have made a very big mistake, and are paying for it now.

The IDF may not like fourth generation war, but not liking something isn't a strategy for fighting it.

Of course, the flip side of the IDF's hatred for low-intensity conflict is a burning desire to come to grips with a "real" enemy. According to Pappe, the current operations against Gaza and Lebanon have allowed the generals to work out some of their frustrations, but it may not be enough:

It can still deteriorate into a full scale war with the hapless army of Syria and my ex-students may even push by provocative actions towards such an eventuality. And, if you believe what you read in the local press here, it may even escalate into a long distance war with Iran, backed by a supreme American umbrella.

Let us hope the professor exaggerates. Having blown the Syrian Air Force out of the sky once (in 1983) it's not clear what strategic goals the Israelis could achieve by doing it again. And any march on Damascus would only end in the same quagmire the U.S. Army found at the end of its drive to Baghdad, except that it would hardly be conducted with the kind of decency and chivalry we've come to expect in Iraq.

As for taking on Iran, well that decision still rests with a higher authority, and while Bill Kristol and David Horowitz can burn up the Internets with their cries to let loose the dogs of war (again), I'm getting the impression that the Cheney administration has had its fill of world wars of choice, at least for the moment. It may be that the IDF is going to have to content itself with shelling and bombing defenseless population centers, at least until after our November elections. But I could be wrong; it has been known to happen. And if I am, and the Third World War, or Fourth, or whatever, now looms, well, it's certainly been nice knowing you all.

The irony of all this is that Israel has the world's leading authority on fourth generation war -- the man who literally wrote the book -- at its immediate disposal, and yet at the moment it looks almost as unprepared to fight one as Uncle Sam. I'm a little surprised by that, but then again the tribes of Israel have something of a track record of ignoring their prophets.

Even the pro-let's bash the hell out of the Lebanese people are worried about the IDF:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742261.html

Bush and the public assumed that the army knew what it was doing, and that Israel, with its superiority in manpower, weaponry and technology, would be able to put an end to Hezbollah as a menace to Israel. Little by little, however, a worrying picture has begun to emerge: Instead of an army that is small but smart, we are catching glimpses of an army that is big, rich and dumb.

BTW, Israel has admitted to using cluster munitions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/27/w...dleeast&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin&oref=login

In another matter that has drawn criticism, the general acknowledged that Israel had used cluster munitions in the conflict. The munitions disperse bomblets over a wide area and have been banned by some countries because of the high number of civilian casualties they cause.

Human Rights Watch charged earlier this week that Israel had used cluster munitions on the Lebanese village of Blida on July 19, killing one woman and wounding at least 12 other civilians, including seven children. But Israel says the weapons it uses are allowed under international law.

“We try to minimize their use,” said General Gantz. “We only use them in designated areas that have been closed even by Hezbollah itself.”

And of course we have these wonderful comments the Israeli defense minister suggesting that Israel should use bombs to flatten villages before Israel troops entering:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...srael_decides_not_to_expand_offensive/?page=3

In his interview with Army Radio, Ramon, the justice minister, said the Israeli air force must bomb villages before ground forces enter, suggesting that this would help prevent Israeli casualties. Ramon spoke a day after nine soldiers were killed in house-to-house fighting. Hezbollah acknowledged Thursday that it lost five fighters in the same clashes, though Israel said at least 30 were killed.

Asked whether entire villages should be flattened, he said: "These places are not villages. They are military bases in which Hezbollah people are hiding and from which they are operating."

Thousands of civilians are believed trapped in southern Lebanon, according to humanitarian officials.

International Red Cross spokesman Hisham Hassan said their teams that have visited border villages under heavy bombardment have found families hiding in schools, mosques and churches, or huddled together in homes they hope will withstand the barrage.

"But even the residents we speak to can't say how many are there, because everyone's hiding, they don't know who's dead or alive," he said.

For example in one town, there are 700 civilians, including 300 children are hiding.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2242967&page=2

But according to the Israeli government, when Israeli troops eventually enter they will bomb the place to the ground first probably killing a good deal of the civilians including the 300 children because as we know. Hey, that's what the Israeli government is saying. These tactics are coming directly from their own mouths.

If it's not true, maybe they should just shut up.
 
Top Bottom