Planning cIV BTS MTDG III

Civ4 is not chess. It will never be 100% fair.
A part of the fun is that it's a little bit random.
This, This This! 1000 times This! And Chess isnt even 100% fair. White has the advantage, especially in low- average level play.
Summer- RB aren't precious. Your posts have been perfectly reasonable and well thought out. If you've changed your mind or want to discuss a point, please feel free to do so there. There aren't that many posts because we're mad- that's just RB.
As many here already know, I relish a thread with lots of posting and fighting and arguing, but I refreain from that on RB out of respect and good manners (which I have only learned over years at this;)) Thanks for your kind invite to keep participating. I will continue to post and discuss stuff over there :)
I guess the main thing for me is that I'd be more comfortable if I had some personal experience testing this mod ... I'd just be more comfortable knowing from my own experience how something works.
LP, I want to say that I have developed a tremendous amount of respect for you since I first became active on CFC, whereas I was formerly kind of a dick to you in the past, which I am sorry for, but I learned from it at least:). That being said:

First of all, I agree with your concerns with trying to use stationary extra workers to block sabotage. It is still a disadvantage to the 1st player in War. 2nd position is waaay better off in this area.

Now about the APT or "Spanish Mod" as we have been calling it, just put that aside... Think of this... Not just LP but everyone. We all have experience. We all want respect for our experience. Each community, and the players there have different ideas about what works in these games. Each feels "I am experienced and knowledgeable. My ways, Mods, rules have been tested and work well" But among the experienced, we must comprimise right?

In other words I must play with some unfamiliar settings, and you must do the same. In this way, we have a true "game" in the sense that no one knows perfectly what to expect. Everyone has some degree of disadvantage, some learning curve, some opportunity to learn new tricks and tactics. Are we saying that we have learned all there is to know and we dont care to learn anything else?
The main problem comes when you have some very large and powerful nations, and some relatively small and weak ones. The tiny civs have no real chance to win anyway, so lose little to nothing by switching to crappy civics themselves. They then have an incredibly disproportionate influence over the game by choosing which large nation's economy to throw into complete disarray using a vastly underpriced mission. (Consider that it costs only barely more EP's than it does to revolt 1 city for 1 turn to destroy an entire nation's economy for up to 5 turns - if not permanently. The problem is that the mission cost is far too cheap to begin with, and furthermore does not scale properly with empire size.)
This is an old argument between the two of us. I will respond in more detail later (as this post is already quite long). Just be assured that I still disagree, and having spent the last 2 years of my life studying the Espionage system and implementing it in BTS MTDG II, I am better able to reason this issue out than I was when we last discussed it.:)
I mean, it was effective, but it made for a frustrating game for those on the receiving end of it.
This is what it all boils down to, no? All the rest of what you said is captured in this statement. This is why I am not yet convinced and must read more on this issue. What you say sounds much like what I have heard in the past about espy... "AI dont do it, so I am not prepared for it, so I dont know how to deal with it, so it annoys me, and I dont feel like learning how to use it, so lets just ban it." One guy uses it well, one time, where everyone was not expecting it, and so were caught off guard... And so we MUST ban it?!? How about we prepare better next time?

You are not completely wrong, but some settings matter a great deal. For instance, tech trading is an EXTREMELY different game from NTT.
You are correct of course (even if a teensy bit condescending:p "not completely wrong?":confused::lol:). Anyway, I am confident Tech Trading will be off for this game.
I'm going to regret getting into this, but you yourself did say:...
He did say the word "troll", but I took it as more he was conceeding that his words would be interpreted that way and he prefered not to argue about 'the peas' (whether he was 'trolling' or not), and instead focus on 'the Steak' (provoking/inspiring/convincing RB to join the pitboss, and getting some feedback on the settings... as he is the one planning it afterall.)
 
Maybe we should decide what kind of game we want to play. A game mostly for fun and friendly competition or is it a contest which site's players are the best? If it's a former many thing doesn't really matter.. sure there are strong tactics with corporations, spies etc. but there are many things, among those we can't really set in therules which will influence the outcome.
we can't balance everything out..
the map: do we really want to play on boring mirrored map just to see who can micro better?
the civs: are we playing with the same civ/leader??

and even if we do, even if we set always war. if there are more than two teams we can't balance out how would they interact. an early war between two teams will make them weaker compared to the rest of the world- but it's normal.

that said, I have no problem banning/editing out those spy missions, making corporations more expensve etc. But no need to turn the game to chess.
It's not about balancing everything out. It's just about ruling out unambiguously exploitative elements of the game so that we can all have fun together.

Certainly I wouldn't be interested in having a mirrored map either. As long as starting areas, number of neighbours, and available land quantity/quality are roughly equivalent between civs, that's fine. In other words... I wouldn't want to see one civ with a whole lot more uncontested land than others, or bordered by only one neighbour while others are bordered by 2-3, or starting with Corn/Pig/Gold/Gems while others start with plains-Cow/Rice/Silk/Dye. But I wouldn't expect nor want to see every civ with an identical start either.

There are plenty of excellent examples of multiplayer maps created by folks at RB which are exciting and interesting, but still fair. Proof that it's quite possible to create cool multiplayer maps which are fair to all civs, without being boring or mirrored. :)

And obviously we shouldn't have to all play the same leader. That kind of dedication to balance is really only useful in 1 vs 1 tournaments. ;)
 
Can any of the RB people comment if espionage would be acceptable if we remove the bad missions and/or tweak things a bit, as DKN suggested?
 
I'm just a lowly RB lurker, so don't rely on anything I say. But how about creating a thread specifically for discussing settings once all/enough teams have been recruited? Then let one spokesperson for each team post in that thread, for sake of overview.

I also think that mzprox made a spot-on comment about defining the overall goal of the game first before discussing specifics. It's important that everybody has close to the same expectations of the game, both for purposes of discussing settings and for purposes of having fun afterwards during the game.
 
First.. we are not de BUG mod developers, our "spanish mod" is the APTMod. ;)

I'm sorry!

Let's me answer with an other question. Which rules do you use to control de double turn efects in your pitbosses?

Here's a prime example of our organization threads:
http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/192869-Destiny-of-Empires-Diplo-Game-Organization-Thread

The rules and settings and habits etc. are in iframes.
I'll quote the double move rule:

"03. Wartime Double Moves
a. Civilizations that are at war have to observe the turn order. The turn order is set during the first turn of the war. If the invaded party played first in the turn before the war started, then the agressor must let him play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him.


b. Players are free to agree on a new turn order if all involved parties agree and this new turn order is published in the organization thread and all involved parties publish their agreement there as well.

c. The host will pause the game if the turn is about to advance in about 2 hours while any player involved did not play his turn.

d. During war all players must always play their turn. If it takes a player more then 24 hours the game administrator will look for a temp sub.

e. If player A wants to declare war on player B while B did not play the turn before (or was first in the turn order the turn before), then player B is first in the turn order.
If B still did not play 1 hour before the turn ends, player A becomes first in the turn order. The game administrator will pause the game when A is done."[/QUOTE]
 
Point A is how our mod acts. But in your rules i dont see nothing about a second "turn" for the first side to move workers and so...

The problem with resource and spies remains.

An easy solution would be to forbid resource sabotage during war time, but that would give 1st side more advantage, and as now the most of us choose allways 1st side for attacking becouse we think it has more advantages. You can trade for resources, found a city over a resource, and 1000 more ways that assures you will have that resource.
 
Point A is how our mod acts. But in your rules i dont see nothing about a second "turn" for the first side to move workers and so...

The problem with resource and spies remains.

An easy solution would be to forbid resource sabotage during war time, but that would give 1st side more advantage, and as now the most of us choose allways 1st side for attacking becouse we think it has more advantages. You can trade for resources, found a city over a resource, and 1000 more ways that assures you will have that resource.

I think it's a rare situation, when either the only resource is too close to the front line or the enemy has vast amount of spies. Usually to keep up the pillaging just wouldnt worth it. (because you can have other sources, you can have airdefense, counterespionage etc) if you feel it's problematic then make it so that destroying forts is harder by bombers or spies.

BTW modding:
I can understand the need for playing an Always War game, city gifting is very cheesy, however coordiantion between allies, diplomacy, trade etc are fun part of civ. So what about if we just eliminate the possibilty of city trades and unit gifting? I don't know how to do it, but quite sure it can be done by an experienced modder.
 
b. Players are free to agree on a new turn order if all involved parties agree and this new turn order is published in the organization thread and all involved parties publish their agreement there as well.

How often does it happen?
I'm asking because I can't see advantage in swapping turn order.

c. The host will pause the game if the turn is about to advance in about 2 hours while any player involved did not play his turn.

Does that means you need an administrator 24h on?
 
I'm sorry!



Here's a prime example of our organization threads:
http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/192869-Destiny-of-Empires-Diplo-Game-Organization-Thread

The rules and settings and habits etc. are in iframes.
I'll quote the double move rule:

"03. Wartime Double Moves
a. Civilizations that are at war have to observe the turn order. The turn order is set during the first turn of the war. If the invaded party played first in the turn before the war started, then the agressor must let him play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him.


b. Players are free to agree on a new turn order if all involved parties agree and this new turn order is published in the organization thread and all involved parties publish their agreement there as well.

c. The host will pause the game if the turn is about to advance in about 2 hours while any player involved did not play his turn.

d. During war all players must always play their turn. If it takes a player more then 24 hours the game administrator will look for a temp sub.

e. If player A wants to declare war on player B while B did not play the turn before (or was first in the turn order the turn before), then player B is first in the turn order.
If B still did not play 1 hour before the turn ends, player A becomes first in the turn order. The game administrator will pause the game when A is done."
[/QUOTE]



ok.. this is not exact what we had at our mod. In it, A will play before or after B always and depends if B had already play when A attacks..... i will chat with Manolo to see it we can do something about it.

But again, in the worst escenario.. the change its really important, no? I mean, the basic idea is the same, just thats as the mod controls it automaticaly without a admin human control it do not had the chance to turn it off or swift turns... Let's me ask Manolo.
 
The problem with resource and spies remains.

I don't see that as a problem. espionage can be countered.
But we could as well just turn improvement sabotage off

How often does it happen?
I'm asking because I can't see advantage in swapping turn order.

Quite often, mostly early in the war when both parties are ok with another play-window. ie. both euro and usa players prefer to play in the evening, so then the euro goes first and the american afterwards.

Sometimes player A is very quick to finish his turns, then he just goes first.
That kinda stuff.

Does that means you need an administrator 24h on?

Well, we have very very very responsible players (part of that is that we are a diplo-community, we value the story writing and the diplomacy, and just the beauty of the game, as valuable as winning. So we all semi-administrate the game by just logging in and pausing the game.

But I always try to be as quickly available as possible as the game admin.
Mail arrives on my phone, and then I can just take the server over from my phone.

Someone can as well just login to the game to create an auto-save on the pitboss server which can be used later on.
 
How often does it happen?
I'm asking because I can't see advantage in swapping turn order.
Often. This is especially the case when you get two "sides" DoWing piecemeal and everyone wants to form turn-taking "blocs", where all on side A go first and all on side B go second, without any particular rule on who on A goes first and who on B goes first for their respective blocs. So if, A1 attacks B1, then on the next turn A2 attacks B1 after his turn, then the next turn B2 comes in and DoWs A2 after A2 plays, well, it makes more sense to go:

A1+A2 -> B1+B2
than
A1->B1->A2->B2

Of course, making it so you must DoW on the same "half" as any other opponents for a civ works... sometimes, but hardly ever. Sometimes it works best to rearrange once the combatants have all joined in (though "all" is never really a sure thing!).

Also, sometimes someone misses a playing window, but to keep things going the turn order switches mid-war, so that A was playing first, but then B misses his turn, so he goes first the next turn and A then goes second. That's happened a lot of times. That way, no pauses, which are the bane of pitbosses (other than reloads).


I feel now the flexibility of having a rule set outweighs the security of the "Spanish mod", though perhaps with this untrusty lot I am being too naive :) It has worked pretty well over the past couple of years I've experienced it, with rare big issues, and those are solved through the admin or, barring that, a vote.
 
Can any of the RB people comment if espionage would be acceptable if we remove the bad missions and/or tweak things a bit, as DKN suggested?

I think if a) those missions are banned, b) we find an acceptable solution for the pillaging issue, and c) the extra information is removed we'd be willing to tolerate the rest :).

Darrell
 
We should theme the leaders, i.e. the French play Louis, the Germans play Fred, the Russians play Stalin, etc. Apolyton and CFC seem to be U.S. dominated so they can have Roosevelt and Lincoln. Most of the players at RB are Mayan :mischief:.

Darrell
 
ok.. this is not exact what we had at our mod. In it, A will play before or after B always and depends if B had already play when A attacks..... i will chat with Manolo to see it we can do something about it.

But again, in the worst escenario.. the change its really important, no? I mean, the basic idea is the same, just thats as the mod controls it automaticaly without a admin human control it do not had the chance to turn it off or swift turns... Let's me ask Manolo.


ok. I had been chating with Manolo and how we can adapt the APT mod to your rules.

We can change the double turn control to not let B play before A (in case A plays fist and B second) and lets the admins to change ordes of player if needed.

But in this case, B will not be able to play at all. we can let them get in and see whats going on, and not let him move or change nothing. Till A plays and then A will not be able to change nothing till turn is ended and a new turn stars.

Also, admin will be able to pause the game, or change the lenght of it as needed.


Do you think this could solve and do with your "03. Wartime Double Moves" rules??


We can start a show game so you can check the mod and get familiarized with the web before the real game stats....
 
Hello everybody.

The Spanish community of Apolyton had several members interested in playing. We would like to make a propose. We have a very interesting mod which we use for our pitboss and our championship. This mod is the basic BTS 3.19 + BUG +
a special system for double-turn avoiding + website and android application with the information that you get from the game.

The mod does not modify the basic game at all. The big issue is double-turn system avoiding. This system does not allow players in war login the game at same time. Split the turn in two half and give one to each. We have been
using it during the last year and we are very happy with it. Now we would like to launch it to international community and get feedback about it. The other interesting issue is the web site. With a user and a password you can see your statistics, information about units and cities, etc. You don not need launch the game, just login the website. Also there is an Android
application with the same functionalities.

I think Magno, one of the developers, will post more details and information about the mod and the website.

If you are interested in we will have enough people for a team. Otherwise we have to check how many people from our community are interested. But we would be very happy if you consider this option.

Thank you very much.

Can we get a link and mybe have ya;ll setup a test/demistration game that we can check out and see it for ourselves??
 
Can we get a link and mybe have ya;ll setup a test/demistration game that we can check out and see it for ourselves??


check at www.aptmod.com login with GUEST/GUEST or create a new user if like so. I the prev post i was ofering to create a show game pitboss to let you get in touch with the portal
 
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