SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

SteelHorse said:

Question: Is a Gsci for Academy better using a Gpro for building the Hindu Shrine or Bulbing into CS?

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I was wondering this too. If we end up going for a culture game, wouldn't the Academy be a waste, since (as I understand it) you normally shut down research after Liberalism?

neilmeister said:

Yes, it was a barrel of laughs. Don't forget the 'database error' page, that was fun too.

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It would seem I picked the right weekend to go skiing, then.

SteelHorse said:

Is a Gsci for Academy better using a Gpro for building the Hindu Shrine or Bulbing into CS?

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Probably. At least, nobody's come up with a case against it. We're likely to get a 2nd Prophet later, and (I think kcd argued) we may not want a shrine yet because we don't want Hinduism to spread too much. As for using a Prophet to bulb CS, that's the plan, but we can't do it until we have Math, which will be around T96 if we research that immediately after CoL. I don't remember the exact timing (and it depends on if we run a priest or two in Bolly after building temples), but if we get a Scientist first then we'll pop a Prophet around T102, which is pretty good timing.

If we don't push for the Scientist first then we'll get the Prophet on T92, so we could use that to bulb CS as soon as Math is in. Revolting to Bureau gives us the same research benefit as an academy, plus we get the +50% bonus on gold and hammers, which would speed up the AP, or at least give us more bang for our forest chops. With both Math and the Bureau bonus we get twice as many hammers from chops--very tempting even if we have to wait a bit for that. The drawback is a later academy for Bolly, which I assume we will want before long. We'd have to run scientists in Delhi for an extra 5 turns to get the Great Scientist ASAP, but I guess that's not such a big deal--we'd have the Scientist on T96.

I tend to get stuck in a rut without other people jostling my ideas, so thanks (once again), SH! It would be even better if more people could run tests or thought experiments on different approaches. I think that the plan through T87--to get CoL ASAP, short of bulbing a Prophet--is still the way to go, whether we want a Prophet or Scientist first. The only difference is running (or not) a 5th scientist in Delhi on T90, and we'll have plenty of time to think about that, especially since I'm stopping at T80.

I'm assuming I have a green light to play according to my plan. May not have time tonight, but tomorrow for sure. How do you feel about these stopping conditions?

• DoW or threatening behavior from neighbors. Should this include Japan going WHEOOHRN?
• Significant barb threat where I'm not sure what to do.
• Real game differs significantly from test game expectations (beyond the 2-gpt differential).
• Meet new AI?
• Any trade or open borders opportunities come up (announced by BUFFY).
• Consider stopping if Japan starts gaining culture on Drona's corn. In the test game this began around T80 (don't have my notes with me).

Got any recommendations on where to send the workboat? I was figuring west/north to start. (I forgot to update the western island in the test game, but it shouldn't matter yet. Bombay's borders pop next turn, I think, so we'll also be able to see beyond the mountains. Ditto when Vijay is settled.)

Can you post a screenshot of known land?

Green from me.

ChrisShaffer said:

Can you post a screenshot of known land?

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I could. Or I could direct you to the screenshots I already posted, which are conveniently linked from the Turnset Reports post. Everyone checks the Reference post and Turnset Reports routinely to keep up to date, find the latest test game, etc., right?

Those don't show the full extent of the NW near Hammuragawa. I have no access to a Windows computer at the moment. And you also said something about a western island - I don't see any islands in the screenshot - is it possible the western land is a continent?

ChrisShaffer said:

Those don't show the full extent of the NW near Hammuragawa. I have no access to a Windows computer at the moment. And you also said something about a western island - I don't see any islands in the screenshot - is it possible the western land is a continent?

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Here's a shot of the far NW from awhile back. The western island is visible in one of my screenshots. Until Delhi's borders popped we could only see that there were 4 tiles, but now we can see it's hills and/or forests with a sheep, and (I think) at least one more tile to the west. BTW, Bolly's borders will also pop next turn--with 3 city border pops and a workboat we're going to see a fair amount of new land!

Ah, I don't think we can conclude for sure that the western land is an island - it could continue west of the sheep or the northern forest.

Looking at those Hammuragawa / Babylon shots, I wonder if we've completely explored the mountain range to the north? Is there any chance of a northern passage there that we haven't checked yet?

Still green, and I would send the workboat around the north side of that western land.

We think alike. I'd like to send our Woody2 axe a little farther north, when/if it's safe. I expect we're blocked in but we can't be sure yet.

I don't believe we've tried to open borders with either Toku, and would assume that's because they're jerks and wouldn't do it anyway, but should we try? Or do we want to wait awhile longer to prevent them from sneaking by with settlers (or seeing our soft underprotected middle)? When/if we do get OB with Japan we need to build a road to the corn to be hooked up for trade routes.

I can't imagine they want to open borders... but if they do, the trade route bonus might be worthwhile, and we could explore to see if they are blocked on the other side. I think that should be a "consult with team / pause" condition.

Another rocky start. We're actually running only 1gpt in extra maintenance instead of 2gpt (vs the test game), which is good. And our workboat has found that the western island is bigger than we could see. But Toku/Japan just DoWed us on T76. He has 2 archers in Osaka, and on our corn he has 1 axe (C1), 2 spears (C2), and an archer (Drill1, CG1). He also has a scout to the NE of Drona and one to the SW of Bolly. I had just moved warrior5 inside our borders down there after they popped on T75. Worker actions have been canceled and no units have yet moved. Inside Drona (20% defense) we have a 5XP axe, a 2XP axe, and 2 warriors, each with an unused promo. We have 73 gold and it takes 80 to upgrade a warrior. Bombay just finished another axe (0 XPs).

Save has been uploaded. No more playing tonight but I'll study things for awhile and maybe make suggestions. Your suggestions are even more welcome.

Seems like we're ok - his stack isn't that formidable, though of course he will pillage us.

I tried playing with the test game but couldn't get Japan to behave properly. When I DoWed him he bravely ran away, leaving only 2 archers in Osaka. But the Babylonian Toku DoWed us when I did that--given their +5 relations with each other we should probably assume Babylon will DoW us. When I adjusted the WorldBuilder Diplo setting to War, Japan still took its sweet time sending any units toward us, so I didn't learn much. I did learn, though, that other than that one axe, Toku's units are toast against us (as long as he doesn't get any chariots ); our odds with a C1 axe are at least 98% against his archer and spears. As my opening bid I suggest:

• Move our northern axe NW towards the forested tiles. Assume Hammy will attack us and move cautiously so he can't get by our axe (which is Woody2 so it has double movement in forests). Pick a nice defensive spot with a good view toward Hammy that also fogbusts.
• Try to corner and kill the SW scout with warrior5, otherwise ignore that and the one near Drona.
• If we can disable that one Jap axe we can easily kill the other units by Drona with our axes and limit/prevent pillaging (other than the corn which is a goner if they choose). Give our 5XP axe C1 and Shock promos and move him SE onto the hill, daring Japan to attack. If he does, he'll probably lose his axe and maybe another unit before our axe dies. Then we can mop up the others.
• Keep the new Bombay axe in Bombay until we know where to send him. Start a warrior (4 turns).
• Have Bolly start its library. (It could build an axe in 3 turns but I'd rather get the library ASAP.)
• Send FW4 (by Drona) north to chop the forest.
• Switch Drona from its nearly completed granary to an axe.
• Have Drona work a forest tile so we have 5 hpt. This will let us whip an axe next turn.
• T77: 1-whip the Drona axe and lose the forest tile.
• T78: Drona axe is complete, continue with granary. The FW4 chop completes.
• T79: Drona granary is done. Start another axe if needed. Move FW4 NW to chop another forest (which will give 16 hammers to Bolly).

I'm probably overly concerned with keeping the Bolly library on schedule. I'm also assuming Toku won't pass up the chance to attack a lone axe, even if he is C1/Shock on a hill. If I'm wrong then at least the Japanese units will be on flat land. If he crosses the river we must put an axe on the gold--we can't afford to lose that. But by that time we'll either have 3 axes, or 2 axes against his axe-less stack.

[Edit: Enemy scouts can't attack units or take cities but they do prevent you from working the tile they're standing on.]

DoW not unexpected. Playing out like the test game where I tried to improve his disposition.

Good to have two axes in Drona. I agree on whipping another axe in Drona.

The question is whether we want to sit back and defend or go after Osaka. There are several possibilities:
1. Try to whip out a big set of axes and try to take him out.
2. Capture Osaka infect with Hindu and make peace and give Osaka back.
3. Sit back and defend, try to get a unit to L4 for HE.

We should agree how to handle.

I'm not in favor of moving our 5XP Axe out out of the city. Better to let him attack city cross river with the fortify bonus. If he crosses the river, I think we have to attack. Once he gets onto gold he can make to Bolly unhindered. 3 Axes should be able to do the damage and we can also upgrade a warrior if really needed.

I would not worry about chasing the scout around. If he comes close, whack him, otherwise just let him be.

On the north, I would partner a second axe. Would hate to have him injured by one axe and die to a second.

Agree with SH. With the city flipping options, I don't think capturing Osaka is worthwhile except to gift it back with Hinduism, which doesn't appeal to me much.

I agree that a DoW from Hammy is probably coming shortly. I also agree with whipping an axe (and maybe upgrading a warrior in Drona, if necessary) and the consensus that it is probably best to stay on defense unless Toku's units move across the river. I don't think Toku has chariots, or else we would have seen them by now, unless he's just acquired horses. Given that he still has only two cities, that seems doubtful. Toku's production capacity is probably pretty limited by his geographic constraints, so I would guess he can't field too large an army, and this action is an attempt at a breakout.

I don't mind Bollywood continuing with the library, at least until Hammy declares. I worry more about Hammy. Bowman would give us a lot of problems.

IIRC, Toku does not pillage. Ever. The corn is his (as he thinks of it), anyhow, so he won't pillage that. I think.

The axe on the hill is a bad move, imo. The hill gives only 25% defense, but the city gives 20% plus 25% river crossing. He won't move to the flat on our side of the river because he wants his archers on the hill, and we would attack him if he is on flat on our side of river.

The best strategy I think is to let him (encourage him to, actually) attack the city. He will lose the axe, and probably more. I would promote only the 2/2 axe to combat1 so it will take the damage. Then the other axe is promoted after to heal damage by the spear/archers and/or made to city raider for our counterstrike. We have a third axe whipped to prevent the 5/2 unpromoted axe from taking two battles. And a warrior can also be upgraded. CoL can wait.

Not sure whether whipping granary for 23 overflow to an axe is a good move or not... we would then whip the axe after overflow is registered. Probably safer to just switch to axe now and whip axe next turn. The bad thing about that is that we get the axe before we can switch to Theo in 2t, but we don't have Hindu there anyhow so I guess it doesn't matter that way. I'm guessing that Theo is more useful than OR if we go into counterstrike mode.

Toku will waste his stack, you can bet on that. At that point, he will be vulnerable and we should be ready to attack... whipping axes mercilessly. Probably everywhere. I think this counterattacking strategy is more advantageous than getting CoL first. It will also get us a religion (Bhudism) which is probably better than founding them ourselves if we hope to get AI-AI warring which enables getting friendly relations with an AI.

Also, the odds of Hammurgawa entering a dogpile war (or a normal DOW) is greatly reduced if we increase our power. So I would cancel all builds and go military whole-hog.

But that's just me being me...

ChrisShaffer said:

Agree with SH. With the city flipping options, I don't think capturing Osaka is worthwhile except to gift it back with Hinduism, which doesn't appeal to me much.

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IIRC, city flipping back to owner cannot occur until the city comes out of revolt. It must then go into revolt, come out of revolt, and go into revolt (back to owner). That's plenty of time to eliminate the culture pressure on Osaka by eliminating Toku, I think. Note that Osaka is outside the capitol's culture borders anyhow, so it would be a long time before flipping would be an issue, even if we don't take the capitol. Heck, we could take peace and prevent revolt with our axes if we decide we need catapults to take Kyoto. City Flipping is NOT a big problem... lets not get hung up on that. Just keep whipping... forget about unhappiness. Kyoto looks to be on a hill across the river (2E/1N of sheep) so probably needs to be attacked from the south. 3 axes per defending archer... more if he's making axes (pillage his copper might be doable, but probably gives him too many turns for building more axes).

Correcting a couple misconceptions or typos: (1) I did propose switching immediately to an axe in Drona and whipping it ASAP [edit: Ah, I see kcd was just toying with the idea of whipping the granary, not saying that's what I proposed], and (2) Toku has at least 4 cities--BUFFY only shows 2 now because...uh, I don't know why, since we never had open borders. But prior to the DoW, it showed 4, and he may have more.

Consensus is that we should hunker down in Drona and dare Toku to attack. If he crosses the river we attack him, with appropriate allocation of promotions. I hope you're right about no pillaging, kcd! In the north, send Bombay's new axe to back up our Woody2 axe, who will fortify in a forest and keep an eye on Hammy.

Our odds against Osaka's archers are only about 25%, and they'll be a lot worse against Kyoto (which has 40% defenses--probably 60% soon--and maybe on a hill). I really don't think we have (or will any time soon) the troops to attack--gotta have cats for that. I'd like to deal with his stack and then get peace, preferably after cleaning up his scouts to get more XPs and war success. kcd, was your bloodthirstiness based on the assumption of only 2 Japanese cities? Or is it just that you're a bold Viking warrior? I am not, and have never gotten the hang of early wars. But I'm open to learning if you can convince us it's a good idea here.

[Edit: Which city # is Osaka? That might give us more info on how many cities Toku has. I read in a forum post that city order is listed in X:\Civilization IV\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4CivilizationInf os.xml but I don't have access at work.]

I vote we kill Toku and get his lands. And simply because we can (...well IF we can). Otherwise he'll always be there as a threat or a nuisance, waiting for the perfect time to strike again. But if his annihilation proves impractical then by all means wait for cats. (battle cats and war-bears, and they bear collars... IWD2 anyone?) But let's at least consider taking a city or two in this war? Maybe get the +100%military Epic prereq. (I forget what level is needed in BTS) promoted unit for a later Epic and greater military production?

A random thought, what if the map is a continuous (or nearly so) thin stretch of land extending diagonally through toroidal wrap map boundaries and the two Tokus are indeed meant to contain us in the beginning? Mountaineous coastlines prevent us from naval expansion on to the east because we can only reach that through land (once we kill the Tokus).

BTW, the mountains remind me of Aman, we only need to find Calacirya, the Pass of Light to get through the Pelóri mountain range. And yes, that's a Tolkien reference if anyone wonders.

Finally, if anyone really cares for my cultural input, I wouldn't stop scientific research very early. Doing that exposes one to potentially devastating defeats from advanced military incursions and besides the +50% wonders can do wonders if we go cultural way. But for now let's make a necklace of Toku ears...

Lich J.J. goes Kangaxx

I don't think we can kill Toku without cats. 40-60% cultural defence for a city on a hill is formidable.