Restructuring of the Civ 5 C&C forum

Pouakai

It belongs in a museum.
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Okay, so in light of this thread and the problems in terms of topics being posted in the wrong place, as well as the changing nature of a forum, we're looking at restructuring the way in which the forum is built. The main issues which we're looking to address from the current layout (as from a moderation standpoint) are:
  1. Questions being posted in the Tutorial section
  2. In progress mods being posted in completed mod subforums

There's also the problem that there's not any room in the C&C section for general discussion about mods or strategy, and a lot of useful topics are found to either not fit any location perfectly or fit multiple locations (such as the Civ Colour Database or the Index of Civilizations). The current proposal which we worked out amongst the staff is the following:

Code:
Creation & Customisation 
   Modding Help and Support
      Modding Tutorials & Reference
      DLL / Lua
   Mod Discussion
      Mod Strategy
         Mod War Academy
      Mod Suggestions
      Databases and Indexes?
   Development Threads
         Large Scale Project Development
            Subforum applications
            <Mod subforums go here>
   Mod Components
      3D models
      Icons and 2D art
      Code Snippets
   Completed Mods and Project Threads
      Modpacks
      Small mods
      Civilizations
      Scenarios
      Maps & Map Scripts
   Modding Utilities
   --> Link to Download Database
   --> Link to Civ 5 Steam Workshop?

Posting in the main C&C forum would be disabled, with all general discussion in the 'Mod Discussion' forum. We've established a decided forum for questions and support with a clear distinction between it and the tutorial section to be made (the tutorial section will be within the help section though, so that it's easy to find for people who are stuck). Also added is a section for mods in development, which was the other main contributor to topics in the main forum. Within this is the section for large scale mods which have their own subforum, along with a set application forum where mod authors may apply to get their own subforum, with clear guidelines as to what is needed in order to get one.

The completed mod subforums are all within a section which clearly identifies it is for completed mods, so to prevent incomplete mods from being posted there. Project threads which contain both completed and in-progress mods are still allowed there, as otherwise there would need to be a split between the completed and the in development, which doesn't help anyone. The modpacks section has remained the same for the time being, as its use in Civ 5 remains the represent large scale mods which add more than just a wonder or a civilization, although that necessarily won't remain if someone can come up with a better option. We've also got the tentatively-named 'Small mods' section in place of Mod Components, for stuff like wonders which doesn't fit elsewhere and has little impact. The Mod Components forum, since it's been mentioned, has been moved outside the specific mod subforums and is now dedicated to items which would contribute to a larger mod, such as a unit model or a piece of Lua code.

Ultimately this is all subject to change, but the main point of the topic is that, as the people who will have to live the most with the changes, we want to get your input into the proposed changes and any suggestions for changes which you may have before we implement the changes overall.
 
"Databases and Indexes" seems odd where you've put it I think. Surely it'd make more sense to put it either with "Modding Tutorials & Reference" or the "Development Threads".

Mod Discussion
Mod Strategy​
Mod War Academy​

This entire section seems strange to me: as it stands, it is difficult strategy for mods in a game like civ to be discussed, where even the most simple of changes can have a massive effect. (for example, JFD's Bavaria if you have the Göbekli Tepe wonder enabled: +5 Culture from the get go is a no-brainer) and it is very unlikely that any two players will have the same combination of mods, let alone the same versions of the same combinations. Strategy discussion are probably better paired with the major projects themselves (a la the situation in the Communitas project subforum); for "Small Mods" as you put it, the changes are rarely worth discussing.

Mod Components
Perhaps, "Mod Assets" would be a more apt description? It'd also help for people who are used to the term meaning "Small Mods".

I'll need some more time to think this through properly; I like the overall proposal however.
 
With respect to the "Modding Help and Support" section:

I feel very strongly that there should be an explicit "ask a mod creation question" section. Many topics fall into that category and there needs to be a 100% clear easily noticeable location for them to go. Many new user's first posts will be a creation question so this must be extremely easy to see.

I also feel very strongly that it is not valuable to separate XML/Lua/C++. Many problems use a combination of the technologies and inexperienced creators may not correctly identify what technologies will be required to fulfill their needs.

For mod-users who are having issues, they may find the name misleading as this section as bug reports (aka support) likely belong in the specific mod's "completed mods" thread but may end up here instead.
-----------------
With respect to "Mod discussion" section:

I do not believe it would be a dedicated strategy sub-forum is required and a sub-sub-War Academy would have very little value. Mods are updated much more often than the base game so any sticky-ed strategy guide in the war academy will likely be out of date after a month or two if the mod is actively behind updated.

For any specific mod the number of active users of it are likely to be low, which means the potential audience for a strategy guide is relatively low. In order to maximize the potential audience I think it would be better to let strategy discussions happen in the general mod discussion forum. That way the most possible users of the mod will see any threads about the mods they use.

I also have no idea what the "databases and indexes" section is suppose to be.
-----------
With respect to "Development threads" section:

This seems redundant with the completed mods section.
-----------
With respect to "Mod Components" section:

It may be valuable to combine "3rd models" and "icons and 2d art" into a single "art" sub-forum. Just as programming solutions will often cut across XML/Lua/C++ art will often cut across. For example, a new unit model will also have an icon.

An additional "utilities programs" forum could be useful for things like image-file unpackers/converters, fireturner extensions, syntax checkers and other things that are not intended to be part of a mod but would be useful for mod creators to have.

I think this name will confuse people. Stuff in this area isn't "mods" that people can play. Its raw resources mod creators can use. I like Sukritact's suggestion of "Mod Assets" or "Mod creation assets" something that more explicitly states the section is for creators rather than end-users.
-------------
With respect to "Completed mods" section:

I do not think it is valuable to draw a distinction between "mod packs" and "small mods". This is almost as confusing a pseudo-distinction as the current "mod pack" vs "mod component".

I also think the phrase "project" should be avoided. There isn't a difference between a "project" and a "mod", so consistently using "mod" avoid confusion.
------------------
I would also recommend putting the general discussion at the top as that is likely to be the "first stop" for new users looking to get mod recommendations or find out what it is like to play modded games. It may also be wise to cluster creator-focused forums toward the bottom while user-focused forums are clustered toward the top.

Pulling this all together it would look something like:
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests and Ideas (aka Mod suggestions)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - Modpacks
        - Civilizations
        - Scenarios
        - Map Scripts
    + Mod Creation
        - Ask a creation question
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Raw Art
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
I understand this doesn't leave a location for in-development mods. I'm conflicted on it but I'm not sure people care about promises they can't play. A mod creator with a high enough profile that people follow them individually is the exception rather than the rule.

EDIT: I had an epiphany. In development mods could go in the "Requests + Ideas (+ in-progress mods)" sub-forum. I'll put more explanation in a separate post.
 
It may be valuable to combine "3rd models" and "icons and 2d art" into a single "art" sub-forum. Just as programming solutions will often cut across XML/Lua/C++ art will often cut across. For example, a new unit model will also have an icon.

A strange issue with this is that the 3d artists are separate from the 2d artists (Luegi being a notable exception to this rule). Generally the two don't accompany one another. Me and Jan both rely on others to provide 3d models for our icons; so having a separate section makes sense (especially if you take into account civ selection maps and leaderheads)

I also feel very strongly that it is not valuable to separate XML/Lua/C++. Many problems use a combination of the technologies and inexperienced creators may not correctly identify what technologies will be required to fulfill their needs.
I agree with the principle, they ultimately work together, but I dunno how that works out in practice: having a separate Lua section help provide visibility to the topics of the more "advanced" modders who have specific problems related to Lua or C++ as opposed to something more generic.

I do not think it is valuable to draw a distinction between "mod packs" and "small mods". This is almost as confusing a pseudo-distinction as the current "mod pack" vs "mod component".
At this point this is true; the distinction is rather confusing. Unless we can offer clear guidelines, it is reasonable that they be merged.

I also think the phrase "project" should be avoided. There isn't a difference between a "project" and a "mod", so consistently using "mod" avoid confusion.
Hmm... I'm conflicted on this; there are some mods that eventually at some point become "more than just a mod". A dedicated section will be required eventually anyway; and a properly regulated process to apply for a sub-forum would be welcome (I mean, how do things work now? Wouldn't this just be making the current process more transparent?).
 
SNIP!

Pulling this all together it would look something like:
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests and Ideas (aka Mod suggestions)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - Modpacks
        - Civilizations
        - Scenarios
        - Map Scripts
    + Mod Creation
        - Ask a creation question
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Raw Art
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs

A few minor quibbles ("Maps" as opposed to "Map Scripts"), but in general "+1 from me"
 
I understand this doesn't leave a location for in-development mods.
Where would project-specific sub-forums go? While I understand that they have the side-effect of sequestering discussion away from the more frequented forums, it's really helpful for collaborating on things, in my experience.
 
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests and Ideas (aka Mod suggestions)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - Modpacks
        - Civilizations
        - Scenarios
        - Map Scripts
    + Mod Creation
        - Ask a creation question
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Raw Art
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs

As someone who is relatively new to this community, this layout makes a lot of sense. It was difficult as a newbie to sort through the various subs to understand what goes where. The number of "moved" posts indicates to me that I am not alone in this. +1 from me also.
 
With respect to "Development threads" section:

This seems redundant with the completed mods section.

I understand this doesn't leave a location for in-development mods. I'm conflicted on it but I'm not sure people care about promises they can't play. A mod creator with a high enough profile that people follow them individually is the exception rather than the rule.

On the other hand, most of the discussions I've seen and followed in this forum have been about mods under development -- brainstorming ideas for mods, discussing balance issues with mods that are under development, providing playtesting feedback on mods before they are actually published, and so on.

It's a somewhat interesting issue, because a lot of the threads that serve as storage spaces for 'completed mods' actually serve as discussion areas for mods under development by their creators. Practically any of the active threads in the New Civilizations section deal with either brainstorming/developing new mods, or playtesting/balance issues for published mods.

I suppose the big question is how people want to organize such discussions -- New Civilizations is ostensibly supposed to be for completed civs, but plenty of brainstorming discussion for new civs under development occurs there. Do people feel strongly that we need a divide between what is under development and what is "completed", particularly considering that even supposedly "complete" mods continue to undergo refinement and modification? Even looking at the Modpacks section, where only completed mods can go, there are several that are continuing to undergo revisions and updates. The only real difference between a mod "under development" and a mod that's "completed" would appear to be whether or not its formally published...

A strange issue with this is that the 3d artists are separate from the 2d artists (Luegi being a notable exception to this rule). Generally the two don't accompany one another. Me and Jan both rely on others to provide 3d models for our icons; so having a separate section makes sense (especially if you take into account civ selection maps and leaderheads).

One very strange oddity is the improvement graphics I've been working on -- thanks to Lord Tirian's method for making icons for improvements and build actions, when building an improvement it's fairly easy for me to just run my .blend file through his method and produce a .png image for making icons with.

Admittedly, nothing prevents me from simply having two separate threads, one for the improvement models themselves and one for the icons. I suppose it depends on which way is the most comprehensible way to search for assets -- one that divides assets up by creator (i.e. each person has a thread they can collectively put all the assets they create in), or one that divides assets up by type?
 
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests and Ideas (aka Mod suggestions)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - Modpacks
        - Civilizations
        - Scenarios
        - Map Scripts
    + Mod Creation
        - Ask a creation question
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Raw Art
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
I would make a couple slight alterations, or at least suggest some thought be given to the possible alterations shown here:
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests and Ideas (aka Mod suggestions)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - Modpacks
        - Civilizations
        - Scenarios
        - Maps & Map Scripts
        - [COLOR="blue"]Indexes (such as the Civ Colour Database or the Index of Civilizations)[/COLOR]
    + Mod Creation
        - [COLOR="Blue"]Get Help With a Mad You are Making[/COLOR]**
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads> **
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Raw Art
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
** notes:
  1. Machiavelli24 called it Ask a creation question, but I think the name assigned needs to be as painfully obvious to the new forum member as we can possibly make it. Anything in the name that is the least bit 'insider-baseball-y' in terms of jargon should be avoided, I think. My understanding is that this is the place we want to drive all those new threads to when the new thread is a request for 'HELP!'
  2. given the fact that so many threads in the current Creation & Customization forum are of the 'HELP! MY MOD IS BROKEN! HELP!' sort, I'm not sure what would be going on in <threads> under + Mod Creation if there is a sub-forum Get Help With a Mad You are Making under + Mod Creation
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • I am not convinced that the word 'Modpacks' is better than simply 'Mods'. I have always found the word confusing in that I am expecting to find related 'packs' of mods under one thread or download-link, given the name 'Modpacks', but it seems to actually merely mean something like 'completed mods that don't fit anywhere else'.
  • I'm not sure that Mod Creation and Mod Creation Assets don't belong at the very top, and General Mod Discussion at the very bottom. Having Ask a creation question (or as I called it: Get Help With a Mad You are Making) at the very top is important in order to succeed at reducing the number of 'HELP ME!' threads that need to be moved from wherever they get inevitably (and wrongly) placed to where they ought to go for purposes of forum 'cleanliness' and people who need help actually getting said help.

----------------------------------------------------------

I would also like to hear a bit more from Pouakai and/or the rest of the 'staff' as to what their thoughts were in regards to this, particularly the 'Mod Strategy' and 'Mod War Academy':
Code:
   Mod Discussion
      Mod Strategy
         Mod War Academy
      Mod Suggestions
  • Currently so far as I know, other than within specific mod threads, or within large-project sub-forums, there doesn't seem to be much of this sort of thing going on in Creation & Customization.
  • Is the feeling on the part of the 'staff' that the reason for this lack is we've tended to discourage it by not giving it a home? Or does it all exist elsewhere in the main CIV5 forum, but is scattered, disorganized, hard to access for those interested because there's no one central place to navigate through to get to and initiate such discussions?

----------------------------------------------------------

I'm also concerned that there might be cross-purposes starting to gain momentum here between (a) the forum moderators and other staff and (b) the common users of the Creation & Customization forum. I think a 'mission statement' might be in order to help define what the end-goals are, both from the point of view of the moderators and the point of view of the users (new and old-hand):

Mission Statements:
Moderator and Staff Mission Statement (paraphrased from Pouakai's original post):
  1. Make Creation & Customization more intuitive and user-friendly, and as a side-effect, reduce the number of (with the need for Moderators to move to the correct places): (a) questions being posted in the Tutorials section, (b) In-progress mods being posted in the completed mod subforums.
  2. Address the problem that there's not any room in the C&C section for general discussion about mods or strategy, and a lot of useful topics are found to either not fit any location perfectly or fit multiple locations (such as the Civ Colour Database or the Index of Civilizations).
Forum User Member's Mission Statement:
  1. Eliminate the redundant and for the most-part confusing and unnecessary sub-forums for placement of completed mods.
  2. Draw a clear and easy-to-understand distinction between parts that are meant for mod-users and parts that are meant for mod-makers.
  3. Make Creation & Customization more intuitive and therefore more easily 'navigated' when looking for information and help, and when posting completed mods, tutorials, utilities and such-like.

I add this last segment because I think it important that we can all agree on the 'mission' before we (the forum users, moderators, and admins) design a solution. We can't know what size wrench to apply if we don't first determine the size of nut that needs to be tightened, unless we just want to keep running back and forth from/to the toolbox hoping this wrench is the correct size.
 
I couldn't tell you how many times I've mistakenly gone into Mod Components (or was it Modpacks?) to look for Tomatekh's Historical Religions mod to get a reference for one of the religions. Mod authors suffer, too, from the current structure!
 
I had an epiphany. In development mods could go in the "Requests + Ideas (+ in-progress mods)" sub-forum. The core distinction I see between the "General mod discussion" forum and the "Requests, Ideas, in-development mods" forum is that the former is about stuff users can play right now while the later is about potential. The natural churn of the "Requests and Ideas" forum will ensure that threads about in-development mods that become abandoned will fall down the list and stop being relevant. One risk of a more dedicated "in-development" section is that it could become a graveyard of abandoned mods that no one would find valuable to look at.
----------------
Do people feel strongly that we need a divide between what is under development and what is "completed", particularly considering that even supposedly "complete" mods continue to undergo refinement and modification? Even looking at the Modpacks section, where only completed mods can go, there are several that are continuing to undergo revisions and updates.
I feel fairly strongly that there is a difference between something a user can download and play now verse something that is not yet available (and in unfortunate cases may never become available). If a user is looking for a mod to try they probably don't want to see a bunch of in progress mods.

My thinking is that threads about mods under development would go in the "Requests, Ideas, In-development mods". Once released such discussions would continue under the mod-specific thread in the "Mod library" or in the "General discussion" section.

It's a somewhat interesting issue, because a lot of the threads that serve as storage spaces for 'completed mods' actually serve as discussion areas for mods under development by their creators. Practically any of the active threads in the New Civilizations section deal with either brainstorming/developing new mods, or playtesting/balance issues for published mods.
I think that brainstorming would be better focused in the "Requests, ideas" section, where it will reach a wider audience, not just fans of the existing mod. I also think that behavior may be due to civilization mods being fairly similar to each other (in the sense that users who want to play with custom civ Xyz would likely also be interested in playing with custom civ Abc).

If a mod maker's next mods are very different than the existing mod it is unlikely that the existing mod thread would be used for brainstorming. For example, I try to avoid talking about my "Cities of Marble" (National Wonders mod) in my thread for "Reform and Rule" (Social Policy mod) because people interested in one are not necessarily interested in the other.
------------
A strange issue with this is that the 3d artists are separate from the 2d artists (Luegi being a notable exception to this rule). Generally the two don't accompany one another.
My feelings on the the structure of the art section is much less strong than my feelings on the XML/Lua/C++ section. I am a programmer not an artist, so I defer to the artists who will actually have to use the forum.

However, I am unsure that separating 2d and 3d art is better than individuals just posting things like "new unit [icons only]".
-----
On a separate but related note, would it be valuable to add a dedicated "request art" section? In order for the Art Asset section to be valuable there probably needs to be a clear distinction between threads that have art people can use and threads that need art done for them.

I don't expect many artists will be willing to do art for "beggars", so isolating the begging to a specific location will keep those threads from drowning out the threads that provide usable art.
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given the fact that so many threads in the current Creation & Customization forum are of the 'HELP! MY MOD IS BROKEN! HELP!' sort, I'm not sure what would be going on in <threads> under + Mod Creation
I do like the idea of going with the most dead obvious naming for the "Get help/Ask a question" section. As for what would go under the generic threads, I don't know but I expect it will just be a catch-all for stuff that isn't questions.
---------
Pulling it all together would be something like:

Parenthesis text () indicates possible sub-titles.

Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion (get recommendations, strategy & more for modded games)
        - Requests, Ideas, In-development mods (discuss concepts for mods you would like to see or are working on)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods (only creators with released mods should create threads)
        - Mods
        - Maps
        - {possibly more sub-divisions}
    + Mod Creation
        - Ask a creation question (Get help with a mod you are making)
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References (knowledge from veterans)
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets (stuff mod creators ma)
        - Raw Art (post icons, models and other art creators can use.  Don't put requests for art here.)
        - Code Snippets (bits of code that can be used in multiple mods)
        - Utility programs (post stuff that will not be part of a mod itself)
 
Okay, so I'm going to try and address a few of the general issues which have been voiced in this topic now, and then address some more specifics later if it&#8217;s still not quite clear / if I forgot anything. Firstly, I&#8217;d agree with the mission statement which LeeS proposed, with both the Forum Users and the Staff goals both issues we&#8217;d like to alleviate prior to the redesign being finalised.

With regards to the help section:
One of the main recurring things which I&#8217;m seeing come up is the need for the Help section to be explicit in terms of the name to try and make it clear for new users exactly where to go in order to get help on a mod. My worry with Machiavelli&#8217;s and LeeS&#8217; proposal is that the Help section is hidden within the Mod Creation forum, with the emphasis of it being a help section being put on the title instead. If a new user were to look at the main sections of the two proposals (with the inclusion of a development section, see below) they would not be presented with a clear choice of location, since a question about a mod could potentially go in General Discussion, Development Mods or Mod Creation. Placing the help forum at the top level alleviates the potential for this, and with a name such as &#8220;Modding Help&#8221; or similar there would be no confusion as to which forum to post a question about modding in.

With regards to the distinction between mod subforums:
I&#8217;d agree that the distinction is pretty arbitrary, but I do think it&#8217;d still be good to have some form of distinction. The reason behind this is to separate large scale mods with huge changes such as Hulfgars Industrial Warfare or Gedemon&#8217;s R.E.D. from the small mods which are fairly self-contained, like the ones which just add more Resources or more Wonders. At the very least I think there&#8217;s a need for a total conversion section to separate the enormous mods from the smaller ones, even if there&#8217;s no further distinctions. Of course, it could be separated further into stuff which just adds new versions of existing features (like the additional wonders / resources / religion) from stuff which adds new functions (Like Ingame Editor or Events & Decisions,) but that&#8217;s just an optional extra, and not as necessary.

With regards to the General Discussion / Strategy forum:
Okay, I&#8217;ll start off here by addressing LeeS&#8217; question in regards to the nature of this. Honestly, I&#8217;m not sure how well it would do here. My reason for including it isn&#8217;t that I&#8217;ve seen it on other civ based sites (Primary the /r/civ subreddit), where it seems to work really well. It provides a location for any general discussion about mods which may have been discouraged as you said, but also for the topics like the index of civ mods or a potential release topic, where modders could announce that they have released a new mod and post a link to the relevant topic, as well as the standard recommendations and anything else that would typically go in a general discussion forum.

In terms of the strategy section, the War Academy is something which I&#8217;ve seen some modders ask for before, and I think could work with some of the mods. However, I think it may be too much of an ask when the Vanilla war academy isn&#8217;t exactly the most active and we don&#8217;t know at this stage whether a strategy section would even be successful. I do think that a strategy section is important though, given there are a lot of mods which change gameplay to a huge extent (such as Communitas, which already has an existing strategy forum with over 100 threads,) and having a dedicated strategy forum would help alleviate some of the learning curve associated with mods like that.

With regards to the Development forum:
If we&#8217;re not having posts allowed in the primary C&C forum, this is one of the things which I see as a must for the forum. It wouldn&#8217;t be so much for the New Civs topics, like Colonialist Legacies or More Civs, which have both in development civs and completed civs in the same topic, but rather for new modders or individual mods which don&#8217;t have an official &#8216;stable&#8217; release. Ideas would probably come in here too, and we&#8217;d likely make use of the forum prefixes for [IDEA] and [INDEV] or something, but this is one of the two most common subjects of topics in the main C&C section currently and we definitely need to have a forum to accommodate it, even if not everyone sees the merit in one.
 
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests and Ideas (aka Mod suggestions)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - Modpacks
        - Civilizations
        - Scenarios
        - Map Scripts
        - Map Packs
        - <Self Contained Mods>
    + Mod Creation
        - Ask a Creation question
        - How-tos, Tutorials, Guides
        - References (things like font icon listings, pixel/dimension references)
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
        - Raw Art
                 - 3D 
            - 2D <threads>

I'm a fan of this design
 
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests and Ideas (aka Mod suggestions)
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - Modpacks
        - Civilizations
        - Scenarios
        - Map Scripts
        - Map Packs
        - <Self Contained Mods>
    + Mod Creation
        - Ask a Creation question
        - How-tos, Tutorials, Guides
        - References (things like font icon listings, pixel/dimension references)
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
        - Raw Art
                 - 3D 
            - 2D <threads>

A "Modpack" I would intuitively consider to be a compilation of autonomous mods within one, such as the Community Patch - which is composed of two/three parts. Those coming over from Civ IV would likely share a similar view of the term. Whoward's Various Components could be considered a good example; but the off-site hosting makes the inclusion tenuous. At any rate, what "Modpack" means to this forum is very vague, and could stand to be thrown out entirely; replaced with something like the following:

Code:
Completed Mods
 - Civilisations (Civilisation Index should go in here)
 - Gameplay
   - Overhauls* 
   - Major Mods**
   - Minor Mods***
 - Maps & Scenarios
   - Maps (What is the justification for a split between Maps and Map scripts?)
   - (Map Scripts)
   - Scenarios

*any mod which makes comprehensive changes to an existing mechanic or to the game DLL (assumes Major Mods) e.g. Reform & Rule, Whoward's Various Mod Components, More Luxuries, Cultural Diversity, etc.
**any mod which adds new mechanics (assumes Minor Mods) e.g. Events and Decisions, Revolutions, Health & Plague, etc.
***any mod which adds to existing mechanics only or makes minor updates to existing mechanics e.g. Historical Religions, More Wonders, etc.

Keep discussion intended threads as open and as non-hierarchical as much as possible, sure, but approach the catalogue of completed mods with transparency in mind. There are certainly users fundamentally disinterested in altering the game in any radical way - whilst there are certainly users in the opposite camp; who look at mods as a way to challenge their tired patterns. And then there are those in-between.

The split between Overhaul, Major Mods, and Minor Mods accommodates the interests of all three groups in an easy-to-navigate manner, and is a little more trustworthy. If I get a mod from the Minor Mods section, I can - assuming my trust in those who categorise the mods (which I would be inclined to do so) - expect that it's not going to change my game in any radical way that I hadn't intended. If I get a mod from the Overhauls section, I can expect that it will alter my gameplay experience. It basically streamlines things in a way that is especially good for the type of user who glances at the OP of a thread and is hooked by one feature, and proceeds to ignore the rest. (e.g. Piety and Prestige both introduces a new mechanic and overhauls some of the vanilla features - without being in the Overhaul section, a user might get the mod without realising that it changes vanilla features as well, which might be a caveat for them).

As for requests, bear in mind that, inevitably and not unreasonably, there are going to be users asking specific Mod Authors to fulfill a request. Therefore, an overlap of requests should be tolerated.
 
Still don't like the idea of distinguishing mods by "size", especially as individual mods can evolve. Putting them into the same forum with prefixes like [Module] or [Overhaul] fits better. After all, that system works fine for graphics mods.
 
It would be distinguishing by scope, not size. If a mod outgrows it's original scope, it can be moved into a more appropriate category.

What works for graphics mods won't necessarily work for other types of mod. The split is proposed with both mod makers and mod users in mind. Mod users tend to favour gameplay mods than graphics mods. Or, there are simply more gameplay mids than graphics mods that such a system is more efficient.
 
I believe it would be best if the amount of nesting was capped at two. That way once a user clicks on the "Modded Games & Mod Creation" forum everything is visible as either as either a forum or direct sub-forum. If a new user can instantly see everywhere it will be easier for them to confidently intuit where they want to go.

While there there is still not full agreement on the exact structure of the "Completed Mods" section or how many divisions of raw art there should be, there seems to be some consensus for the following:

Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Mod Discussion
        - Requests, Ideas, In-development Mods
        - <threads>
    + Completed Mods
        - {1 or more sub forums}
    + Mod Creation
        - Get Help with a mod you are making
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
        - {1 or more art sub forums}

I like Lees's idea of using the "Get help with a mod you're making" over "Ask a question". The first is what the user is trying to achieve, the second is the means they will use to achieve it.

Under this structure there would be no threads at the top "Modded Games & Mod Creation", only under "General Mod Discussion", "Mod Creation" and any sub-forum at the (-) level.

My worry ... the Help section is hidden within the Mod Creation forum, with the emphasis of it being a help section being put on the title instead. If a new user were to look at the main sections ... they would not be presented with ... General Discussion, Development Mods or Mod Creation.
One of the reason I am concerned about a (+) level "Development Mods" section is that "Development" sounds like "Creation" and if there is only "Creation" than new mod makers will know to go there (especially since they will see a link to the sub-forum "Get help with a mod you are making", which explains itself and its parent forum).

It would not be a huge problem to have the "Get help with a mod your making" being at the (+) level. Originally, when its name was "Ask a question" I was concerned non-mod creators would stumble in there and post, so nesting it under "Mod Creation" was a way to protect against that. However, with the new name that is less of a risk.
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A "Modpack" I would intuitively consider to be a compilation of autonomous mods within one, such as the Community Patch - which is composed of two/three parts. Those coming over from Civ IV would likely share a similar view of the term.
It was a useful term in Civ 4 which had the constraint of one-mod-at-a-time. Post-Civ 5 it just causes confusion. Plus, most people are going to be coming to Beyond Earth fresh or from Civ 5, not Civ 4.

The split between Overhaul, Major Mods, and Minor Mods accommodates the interests of all three groups in an easy-to-navigate manner...
I am very skeptical that "the same but more/less" distinction are ever consistently pictured by groups of people. I could see trying to split "Total conversions" from "mods" under the theory that "Total conversions" are generally incompatible with other mods and that people will "know them when they see them". However 3 degrees is too much.
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The elephant in the room with respect to the division of the "Created Mods" section is Steam Workshop. No matter what structure CivFanatics uses it will be vastly less nuanced and feature rich than what the Steam Workshop provides. One mega sub-forum with all the mods + Steam Workshop may be less bad than a trying to guess which sub-forum has mods you would be interested in.
 
The elephant in the room with respect to the division of the "Created Mods" section is Steam Workshop. No matter what structure CivFanatics uses it will be vastly less nuanced and feature rich than what the Steam Workshop provides. One mega sub-forum with all the mods + Steam Workshop may be less bad than a trying to guess which sub-forum has mods you would be interested in.
Meh; I absolutely detest the Steam Workshop. So ridiculously annoying to deal with. I see no "nuance and feature-richness" either.
 
I still think the help section should be at the top level. If we only look at the top level forums with that proposal (and including development mods), this is what we're faced with:

Code:
    + General Mod Discussion
    + Mods in Development
    + Completed Mods
    + Mod Creation
    + Mod Creation Assets

To a new user, there's no clear indication as to where to ask for help. Even without the development mod forum in there, there's still nothing which makes it obvious where to ask for help, which ultimately means they'll post it in the general discussion section since that would be where to post it if there's no place for it otherwise. In addition to that, what's the reasoning behind a mod creation forum, when Assets are in a separate forum and the tutorials could just as easily be within a help section.

Instead, if we have help as a top level forum, this is how it looks:

Code:
    + General Mod Discussion
    + Modding Help
    + Mods in Development
    + Completed Mods
    + Mod Creation Assets

In this case, even with the Mods in Development forum there's no question as to where a mod question would go.

Next issue is the placement of a development forum. I agree that it should be combined with Ideas and Requests, which creates an issue in that the Ideas would be best in general discussion, but the large scale project threads (which would go within the development section) would be better suited for a separate section. This is the main reason why I'm proposing a separate section for the development (which could be called Ideas, Suggestions and Development to avoid confusion with requests and helping). With this in mind, this is what I see for an expanded forum view:

Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
   + General Mod Discussion
       - Strategy?
   +  Ideas, Suggestions and Development
       - Large-Scale Development forums
           - <Project subforums>
   + Completed Mods
        - {1 or more sub forums}
   + Modding Help
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads>
   + Mod Creation Assets
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
        - Models
        - 2D art
 
Instead, if we have help as a top level forum, this is how it looks:

Code:
    + General Mod Discussion
    + Modding Help
    + Mods in Development
    + Completed Mods
    + Mod Creation Assets

If I'm understanding what you are saying, after a person clicks on a link to Modded Games & Mod Creation, they will see those five sub-forums, but no threads at that point ?

If so, I think this could work for achieving the goal(s) of :
  1. Make Creation & Customization more intuitive and user-friendly, and as a side-effect, reduce the number of (with the need for Moderators to move to the correct places): (a) questions being posted in the Tutorials section, (b) In-progress mods being posted in the completed mod subforums.
But I think it would be necessary to plan added descriptions (or subtitles), at least for the + Modding Help sub-forum, to make it more dead obvious where all those "BROKEN MOD! HELP!" threads ought to go. Something like:
Code:
    + General Mod Discussion
    + Modding Help
         ([COLOR="Blue"]Ask for help with a Mod you are making. If you can't figure out why your mod is not working, start a thread here.
         Find tutorials, how-tos, and references in the How-tos, Tutorials, References sub-forum.[/COLOR])
    + Mods in Development
         ([COLOR="Blue"]Ideas, Suggestions and Development[/COLOR])
    + Completed Mods
    + Mod Creation Assets
  • I showed my sample sub-titles (or descriptions) in blue. I am not really satisfied with what I came up with for + Modding Help, but I wanted a sample of what I am thinking of, that everyone could think about and chew on. I think that something along these lines would ought to make it obvious that this is the place for Questions & Help-Me threads.
  • I am also wondering if the + Mods in Development titling/concept issue can be solved with the suggested sub-titling.

NOTE: I am operating under the assumption that this is all the forum user would see directly after they click on a link to Modded Games & Mod Creation.

[edit]to clean up some typos and to add this thought:
What if instead of Completed Mods it was referred to as Playable Mods ? Or perhaps instead had a description of something like browse for and download playable mods: total game conversions, user interface mods, new civilizations, world wonders, new units, etc. ?
 
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