Sandkasten
- Thread starter Snaaty
- Start date
I'm glad I'm getting a little support about staying with Oracle/Pyramids... this was one I was going to be vocal and stubborn on 
It seems we have been discussing with three courses of action:
1) Staying the course with Oracle->Pyramids. I think this is our best plan, since it lands us a haul of early advantages and leverages our traits for a big jump on the competition:
-The Oracle
-Metal Casting
-Pyramids
-Forges (hammers and extra happy face)
-Early access to Triremes with the ability to mass produce them with State Property
-Representation for the long run (extra beakers, happy faces)
2) Diverting tech and hammers from the Oracle/Pyramids gambit to get a workboat out for scouting. This is the one I am most opposed to. This jeopardizes our gambit without getting us any concrete, tangible advantage (meaning in terms of hammers, beakers, etc).
3) Diverting tech and hammers from the Oracle/Pyramids gambit to get Fishing AND Sailing. This would at least give us the advantage of settling the other island sooner. I could be convinced that this is a good idea, but I still don't like it.
It seems we have been discussing with three courses of action:
1) Staying the course with Oracle->Pyramids. I think this is our best plan, since it lands us a haul of early advantages and leverages our traits for a big jump on the competition:
-The Oracle
-Metal Casting
-Pyramids
-Forges (hammers and extra happy face)
-Early access to Triremes with the ability to mass produce them with State Property
-Representation for the long run (extra beakers, happy faces)
2) Diverting tech and hammers from the Oracle/Pyramids gambit to get a workboat out for scouting. This is the one I am most opposed to. This jeopardizes our gambit without getting us any concrete, tangible advantage (meaning in terms of hammers, beakers, etc).
3) Diverting tech and hammers from the Oracle/Pyramids gambit to get Fishing AND Sailing. This would at least give us the advantage of settling the other island sooner. I could be convinced that this is a good idea, but I still don't like it.
obsolete
Deity
Not quite, it's 6 vs 4, so we have much less time than that even.
obsolete
Deity
Technically, Snaaty has more experience at Civ than I do (I think!)
So technically, his vote should outrank mine, but I'm sure going to be pretty stubborn on this one as well.
Chimera1804
King
Number crunch time!
100 GPP/4 GPP/t = 25 turns.
100 GPP/6 GPP/t = 16.67 turns (rounds to 17 turns)
EDIT: As obs pointed out yo get those 4 GPP.
25 t - 17 t - 1 t (for those 4 GPP) = 7 turns
So basically we have 6 turns to get a forge running a GE (if we take 7 turns they'll tie and thus goes to the oracle). When I had a go at this I whipped the second city to get the forge out, but then I didn't have the pop to support a GE. We're gonna have to chop with near perfect timing...(of course having said all this other people have already done this.)
@Mike&obs,
I don't think anyone really suggested dropping the Mids plan yet. I was saying we should test to see what getting Fishing/WB relatively early does to the Oracle/forge timeline. It's good to have alternate options play-tested is all. If our island is really as tiny as it seems, maybe we don't even need an extra warrior on Monarch. Maybe a WB slipped in is ok. Don't know off the top of my head. I'd test it myself, just haven't had time in the last couple of days.
I don't think anyone really suggested dropping the Mids plan yet. I was saying we should test to see what getting Fishing/WB relatively early does to the Oracle/forge timeline. It's good to have alternate options play-tested is all. If our island is really as tiny as it seems, maybe we don't even need an extra warrior on Monarch. Maybe a WB slipped in is ok. Don't know off the top of my head. I'd test it myself, just haven't had time in the last couple of days.
obsolete
Deity
Wrong again, the oracle will give us 4 gpp before you even get the message its been built. So you must factor this in as well. Also, ties will go to the oracle-city.
Chimera1804
King
obsolete
Deity
I think the main thing we need to benchmark next, are the other settler(s). We need to get a third city down south, as well as one for shipping over-seas. We could chop some more trees at that time, but I feel guilty since that’s a lot of hammers wasted without Math that we could save for later.
We’d lose 10 hammers per forest, and then another 5 hammers on top of that bonus for the other bonuses. Losing out on 15 hammers per forest really sucks.
Would it be feasible, to work on a granery while running our Engineer, or to just wait for a pop of 4, so we can run both the ENGINEER, use both rice patties, and work the gems while putting everything else into producing a couple settlers?
If we save many of our forests until math, we could get 45 hammers per forest on buildings, to help out with TGL, & NE. If we are really lucky, maybe even HG as well. That +1 health never obsoletes, and with just 4 cities, that’s 120 extra hammers (BASE) back on the exchange rate. Particularly in the early phases where they are the most valuable for starting cities.
We’d lose 10 hammers per forest, and then another 5 hammers on top of that bonus for the other bonuses. Losing out on 15 hammers per forest really sucks.
Would it be feasible, to work on a granery while running our Engineer, or to just wait for a pop of 4, so we can run both the ENGINEER, use both rice patties, and work the gems while putting everything else into producing a couple settlers?
If we save many of our forests until math, we could get 45 hammers per forest on buildings, to help out with TGL, & NE. If we are really lucky, maybe even HG as well. That +1 health never obsoletes, and with just 4 cities, that’s 120 extra hammers (BASE) back on the exchange rate. Particularly in the early phases where they are the most valuable for starting cities.
I see your point, but I have no problem chopping now. The extra hammers would be nice, but getting settlers and infrastructure up early is also tremendously valuable -- value that is difficult to quantify.
obsolete
Deity
Perhaps we would sacrifice one chop for a very early granery. Then we grow it up to cap pretty fast, and pump out 2 settlers in a row. We could chop the forest on the plains hill, so we can mine it to also work a 4h tile.
We could probably get a settler each 6 turns without further chops that way.
We could probably get a settler each 6 turns without further chops that way.
BobRoberts
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2009
- Messages
- 284
A modicum of chopping sounds worth it if it's going to significantly speed things up... definitely worth a sim.
Frankly, I'd view it less as 'losing 10 hammers' vs '25 now or 37.5 > 45+ later'. 25 now may be more decisive if we invest them in something wise? Snowball effects and all!
Frankly, I'd view it less as 'losing 10 hammers' vs '25 now or 37.5 > 45+ later'. 25 now may be more decisive if we invest them in something wise? Snowball effects and all!
Early chops easily snowball into more hammers later, especially with a colonization war, so waiting for Maths in this situation doesn't seem reasonable. We should chop like crazy NOW!
KingMorgan
Deity
Anything that get us to the mainland first has got to be a winner, if we can fit that in with the oracle gambit then so much the better.
ahmedhadzi
Relocation Consultant
There is no need to divert our plans from gambit. Even if someone else does land first we will still be able to block our neighbours with tririemes and slow down their expansion. Unless there is three civs that start on mainland and three on islands although i don't think this is likely.
Have we tried to recreate our early Sandkasten results with our known land? Now that we have revealed our entire landmass, maybe we should make sure we can reproduce the results with our real situation.
If I read correctly, we were able to get Oracle on turn 47, right?
We should also see how much Fishing/workboat is going to set us back in various scenarios. I think that is going to be the key item that we are divided on, so we should be making our decisions with hard data.
If I read correctly, we were able to get Oracle on turn 47, right?
We should also see how much Fishing/workboat is going to set us back in various scenarios. I think that is going to be the key item that we are divided on, so we should be making our decisions with hard data.
obsolete
Deity
I'll try to get an updated version before tomorrow evening online. But I don't think fishing early is going to be a winner. Even if we find nice terrain, we have so many other things to do.
v8_mark
Prince
Surely exploration is significantly more important than development in a pitboss game like this?
obsolete
Deity
Well, if anyone wants to trade off Oracle & Mids for an earlier scout-boat... I think they are nuts.
I wouldn't even want to stall the oracle by a turn if I don't have to.
I wouldn't even want to stall the oracle by a turn if I don't have to.
ahmedhadzi
Relocation Consultant
Could we check to stick second city somewhere on the coast? So while this city is waiting for oracle to be completed we could get the scouting boat out somewhere before T40. Otherwise we will have to wait until T51 at least.
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