Subsidies and Aggressive Trading Practices

DaviddesJ said:

I think there are plenty of glitches in Civ4 that seem equally "easy" to eliminate, yet are there. The argument that something seems easy to avoid therefore doesn't carry much weight.

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Edited for clarity.

Well, it's not so much an issue of easy to fix, which generally comes down to demand from the consumer base (ie the chop-rush was nerfed due to popular demand), but that it was easy to design.

In fact, it would have been easier to design a linear GP tech offering system that it would be to design the current staggered system. What I imagine is that either the system was originally designed staggered, or there was some active intention to change the original linear system to a more staggered (read: strategic) system. I say the current system is strategic because it has depth; planning is required in order to produce the desired results, and there are limitations on the production of Great People, in particular in the early phases of the game when such a slingshot would produce the most disparate advantage over other players (AIs).

The specific case of using The Oracle and a Great Prophet for CoL/CS is, in my opinion, the most extreme result produced by the system. In this case, GPP generation is in line with The Oracle. Using this one case to condemn the whole system is something I cannot support. It is arguable whether the CS slingshot is an exploit or not. However, outside that one specific instance, I do not know of any other combination of Great People, and/or a Great People and The Oracle to produce so disparate an advantage. Even the CS slingshot is limited by the fact that the most major portion of the slingshot, access to Macemen, is restricted by researching another (expensive) tech, Machinery.

A Machinery slingshot (utilizing The Oracle and a Great Engineer) is an entirely different issue. It has its own restrictions based on GEP generation (making it far slower a slingshot than the CS slingshot). As well, it provides a different return than the CS slingshot. Crossbows, for example, are more balanced than Macemen because they do not have access to the City Raider line of promotions. I would not consider the other benefits of Machinery to be on par with Bureaucracy at the point in the game at which you would complete this slingshot.

For clarity's sake, could you specifically describe any slingshots that you consider exploitative. I assume the CS slingshot is amongst them, though it would suffice to just acknowledge (rather than describe) that particular slingshot.

Referring back to the design of the system, as I said, it would have been easier to design a linear system. Yes, I make the basic assumption that any and all design was done in the easiest possible manner (to design and/or implement). I personally think that is a reasonable assumption to make. To design and implement the current system requires (required) far more work (both in design and testing) than a linear system (the linear system is easy to design, and relatively easy to test). Making sure even more disparate technology advantages could not be achieved through the current system was, I am sure, a priority when testing it in relation to the Philosophic leader trait, assuming the GP tech offering system was not as important an aspect of the game to test as the leader traits were (another relatively safe assumption; leader traits play a far larger role overall in the game).

While I agree that, at this point, fixing the system is not necessarily a priority of Friaxis, which would likely only change it at the request of popular support (ie chop rush), I cannot agree that the system was not intended to produce slingshots. As I said, there exists one particular slingshot which is quantifiably superior to all other slingshots. It is not impossible that one could manipulate Great People in order to produce a similarly extreme slingshot in conjunction with the free tech from Liberalism (or, alternatively, with any of the free Great People produced by researching a tech first, though that could be mirrored through additional manipulation of the GP system).

Simply put, originally designing it to be linear (as you seem to desire) would have been easier than designing it in its current implementation. If it was not designed to be linear, then it was intended to produce slingshots (the specific order of techs offered is conducive to this). If it was designed to be linear, then at some point during design or testing, someone with enough authority to request/authorize its change did just that, requested/authorized its change to the current system.

I personally think the current system provides a bit more depth to the game. If it was entirely linear, I'd almost question if there was any value in the tech offerings, or if the other GP usage options are 100% a better choice.

That said, this really doesn't have much bearing on the topic of this thread. With regards to that, it would seem that system would as easily be fixed as the GP tech offering system could be modified to a purely linear system. As I noted, and as you agree, change of that order is more dependent on Firaxis deeming it worthwhile, worthwhile being a function of enough demand on the part of the player base (or perhaps the personal crusade of select employees at Firaxis).

Regarding the side argument over "What exactly is an exploit?", I think the "Slingshot" (expensive free tech for finishing a wonder) works more or less as designed and was actually available in previous versions. It's even suggested in game... The most suggested tech in the tech list when you finish The Oracle is almost always Code of Laws or Civil Service if they are available (it seems that the most expensive available tech is on top and "Recommended"). Although I admit that the improved ability to focus your development through where The Oracle happens in the tech tree (straight through to CoL and CS) helps make this technique an extremely powerful gambit in cIV.

Now back to the central topic...
Gift financial aid both to raise relations and so that the target nation can afford to pay for resources purchased from the donor nation. From a "model real life" standpoint, it seems to be a viable gambit since I think our nation does exactly this at times. The only cost to you is all your extra resources, whereas the AI targets are gaining those resources at the cost of giving you a whole lot of gold per turn.

However, as described, it seems you can do it in a way that can cripple that AI if you end up taking basically "all" of their commerce for resources, back out of your subsidy of the even deal, and the AI can't back out of the deal if it does cripple it. I call that an exploit. If the AI can back out of bad deals after the removal of the subsidies, I would suggest that it's probably fair enough as it goes... you end up with higher relations and a more-or-less fair deal with the AI to boot. That sounds like trade to me.

Hi, I just tried this in a game and after 10 turns i can't cancel the gift. I am doing the same thing that you would do with any other deal to cancel it. Is something wrong, or am I just stupid.

Nares said:

In fact, it would have been easier to design a linear GP tech offering system that it would be to design the current staggered system.

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I don't understand what you mean by "linear" and "staggered". The current GP tech system is extremely simple: each type of GP has a list, in priority order, of techs that GP can provide, and the tech you get is the first one on the list that you don't have yet but do have the prerequisites for. I don't really see how this could possibly be simpler. To "fix" the exploits would require a more complex system that would rank the available techs in terms of cost as well as priority for that particular GP type. Or perhaps the system could be adjusted by making the cap on the beakers that a GP can provide vary with turn number or size of your economy or number of previous GP you have produced or some other factor that grows as the game proceeds. But any of these alternatives would seem clearly more complicated.

Stolen Rutters said:

Regarding the side argument over "What exactly is an exploit?", I think the "Slingshot" (expensive free tech for finishing a wonder) works more or less as designed and was actually available in previous versions.

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Obvioulsy that's true. We're talking about something different: manipulating the GP tech system to get a more expensive tech by deliberately not researching certain prerequisites (because if you had the prerequisite, then the GP would give you a different, less desirable/expensive tech, instead).

This may well have been known to the designers but I think it can hardly be an intentional design feature.

DaviddesJ said:

I don't understand what you mean by "linear" and "staggered".

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"Linear" would be a list sorted by flavor and tech cost (or era, the point is some secondary factor would be involved in the list's order).

"Staggered" is the current list, sorted purely by flavor.

Adding the tech cost into consideration would keep similar era techs grouped, so that you would need to research through them, regardless of flavor, though flavor would determine the order of techs available in a given era (ie you must research through Theology in order to make Civil Service available).

Sorting by flavor exclusively produces the current system (ie skip Masonry in order to make Civil Service available).

Unless you were claiming that the entire system of researching a tech via a GP was some sort of "exploit." Though I believe you were merely referring to using the GP tech research to research techs that are relatively advanced for a civ's current tech level/era.

DaviddesJ said:

To "fix" the exploits would require a more complex system that would rank the available techs in terms of cost as well as priority for that particular GP type.

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Changing the system requires no more than re-ordering the offered techs, future era -> ancient era. That would eliminate most loopholes in the system, and diminish the relative advantage provided by "exploiting" the remaining ones by forcing you to research other ancillary techs before gaining access to the relatively advanced ones.

Taking this to an extreme, each GP type could have the entire list of researchable techs (rather than the partial lists they currently have) sorted by era then flavor, resulting in any "loopholes" to remain within the era they would otherwise be discovered in (for example, you couldn't research Civil Service with a Great Prophet until you had cleared through not only the entire Classical era, but also through all the religious techs of the Midieval era as well).

There would still be some potential ways in which to gain an advantage through the system. However, those advantages would be diminished in potency relative to if you had not used Great People research at all. It's impossible to entirely eliminate these advantages without eliminating the entire system because some techs are better than others in some situations within the frame of some strategies, and, frankly, some techs are better overall in comparrison to other techs.

Nares said:

Changing the system requires no more than re-ordering the offered techs, future era -> ancient era.

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Well, obviously you could do that, but it would significantly damage the flavor of the game by causing Great Scientists to often give techs that are relatively less "scientific", Great Merchants to often give techs that are relatively less "economic", etc. I think that cost would definitely outweigh the perceived benefit of this simple solution, if I were the designer. Having an enjoyable flavor for the large number of players who approach the game relatively casually is much more important than closing "exploits" for the civ fanatics.

this is obviously an exploit. No single doubt about it.If using this exploit makes you feel you'r better player, whatever, but this is an exploit.

DaviddesJ said:

Having an enjoyable flavor for the large number of players who approach the game relatively casually is much more important than closing "exploits" for the civ fanatics.

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I have yet to see any evidence of slingshot "exploits" beyond the CS slingshot. I asked you to provide any you may know of besides that. I ask again. With regards to the CS slingshot, it's particularly powerful in that the GP generation from that line of techs starts early and works in tandem with The Oracle.

Aside from that particular case (which is partially attributable to The Oracle; do you want to "fix" that as well?), which could be fixed by modifying just Great Prophet tech offerings, would you care to share any other "exploits" of the Great Person tech offering sytem? If there are enough, then perhaps a intricate fix would be required in order to both eliminate or reduce the "exploits" while at the same time attempting to preserve the diversity offered by the current system.

With regards to the Great Prophet in particular, I really don't understand the reasoning behind having it offer Civil Service, other than that the religious flavor is relatively sparse between Theology and Divine Right (with the exception of Philosophy), and Civil Service isn't of any particular flavor per se.

That the Great Prophet offers it, and given that the tech line leading up to The Oracle promotes the (early) generation of a Great Prophet, leaves me inclined, at least to some extent, to believe that particular slingshot is intended.

Again, please highlight, describe, detail any other GP assisted research related slingshots that would provide an advantage that would be considered "exploitative."

I'm loathe to think of alternative reasons as to why you dislike it, as you are a credible high level player. I also will not settle on some vague statement that there are other related "exploits", but you don't want to share them for fear of them becoming widespread in use (as you state specifically in the GOTM exploit/bug thread in relation to the trading exploit that seems to have formerly been the topic of this thread). No offense intended.

Flavour aside, how is having a great prophet part-research Civil Service out of line game balance wise? A scientist can get you all of Philosophy, which often comes with the side benefit of founding Taoism too.

Nares said:

I have yet to see any evidence of slingshot "exploits" beyond the CS slingshot. I asked you to provide any you may know of besides that.

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Early in the game, Civil Service is the natural (accessible relatively early, but expensive) tech to head for. Machinery is another example. If you're going to use your first GP for an early tech, then it's almost always important to manipulate the type and prerequisites so you can get what you want. Later in the game, that sort of manipulation is less important or worthwhile for lots of reasons: tech trading means that one tech is often about as good as another, the more expensive techs are only partially bought with a GP anyway. It still can often be important to manipulate prerequisites so that you get one particular tech instead of a different one that may be less valuable either in your particular situation, or in beakers, or just one that is a monopoly and more valuable for trading as opposed to something that other civs have.

I don't really see why you care how many examples there are. The point seems the same to me if there is 1 example or 100. You seem to be leading in the direction of arguing that the designers explicitly wanted to create a hidden tactic that would give players a rapid path to Civil Service. I think that's fairly ludicrous, but I'm not sure if it's really your position, or not.

uberfish said:

Flavour aside, how is having a great prophet part-research Civil Service out of line game balance wise?

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You can produce a Great Prophet relatively early. Great Prophet points are accumulated by running Priest specialists (via Temples, aka Polytheism), and by wonders such as Stonehenge (Mysticism), The Oracle (Priesthood) and Angkor Wat (Code of Laws). Basically, it's a highly streamlined slingshot.

Compare that to some other early slingshots.

Machinery, for example, requires a Great Engineer to research, and that you researched Metal Casting. It's simple enough to use The Oracle for Metal Casting, but there's a very small window in which to start running the Engineer specialist in order for it to be produced before the Great Prophet Points from The Oracle produce a Great Prophet (small window for non-Philosophic; even smaller window for Philosophic). Further, there's not really many sources of Great Engineer points. The Pyramids (Masonry) are expensive (and very easily missed), and Masonry itself is an otherwise non-priority tech (Walls, meh; Monotheism for OrgRel is better; Bureaucracy and half the tech needed for Macemen or Code of Laws are even better).

Similarly, you could attempt to manipulate Great Merchant points (The Colossus/The Great Lighthouse), but that's another lengthy road that requires either Code of Laws for Caste System or a relatively unfocused research path. Besides, what are you going to use a GM for; Currency?

Great Artists are similar to Great Merchants; you need Caste System, basically, though in the case of GA's, their GP specific use (culture bomb) and their super specialist use both have more practical applications in the early game (warfare and/or cultural victory), and The Parthenon provides both a source of GA points while increasing your GPP output.

Great Scientists are the only remaining option. Again, fairly limited in the available tech choices. Pre-Philosophy, there's nothing really worth burning them on. Philosphy is great for netting Taoism, and to a lesser extent Pacifism (expensive for the early warmongerer). Aside from that, you can build an Academy, which, combined with Bureaucracy (back to Civil Service again), can provide a substantial research boost.

Basically, no other Great Person is linked to building The Oracle. No other Great Person can offer Civil Service so readily. Producing a Great Prophet is relatively easy when pursuing a The Oracle slingshot. Few other slingshots can provide the same kind of returns as a Civil Service slingshot. It's the strongest of the early game slingshots (when slingshots have the greatest impact on the game). That it's so streamlined. The only necessary techs for the slingshot itself that don't contribute to the slingshot directly are Writing and Meditation. Writing provides Libraries and makes Scientist specialists available (Bureaucracy and Academy and Cottage spam is very strong), Meditation provides Monastaries, which, even if not valued for their +%research, will allow you to spread your religion via Missionaries, making building a Shrine with your second (eventual, if you don't actively work to avoid it) Great Prophet.

DaviddesJ said:

I don't really see why you care how many examples there are. The point seems the same to me if there is 1 example or 100. You seem to be leading in the direction of arguing that the designers explicitly wanted to create a hidden tactic that would give players a rapid path to Civil Service. I think that's fairly ludicrous, but I'm not sure if it's really your position, or not.

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Well, it's arguable if they intended the CS slingshot or not. I admit that it's by far the most powerful of the slingshots. As I state in the post describing it versus other potential slingshots, no slingshot is so streamlined or as powerful, particularly given the potency of Bureaucracy and the near necessity of Code of Laws.

I would still argue that the entire system does not need to be fixed. Based on some of your previous statements, I gather that this is your position (which it may not be), that the whole system needs to be fixed. The specific instance of the CS slingshot could be fixed by restructuring the Great Prophet tech offerings specifically.

I think the direct fix I refer to would suffice; modifying just the Great Prophet tech line in order to prevent partial research of Civil Service without more thorough research of the religious flavor techs (namely Monotheism and Theology, or, in otherwords, if a mistake is made and you somehow research Masonry, say via a hut) could be done without encountering the overall diminishment of the system you refer to as being a drawback of the extreme tech offering restructuring I refer to in my earlier post.

I think we're basically of the same opinion here, you just have yet to come out and say specifically that it is the Civil Service slingshot via The Oracle and a Great Prophet that is the problem. As I said, you earlier allude to the whole system needing some sort of fix, presumably to avoid making so direct a statement about the CS slingshot.

What I'm just trying to discuss is not changing the whole system, but purely the specific case of the CS slingshot, which, as we both note, is unlikely to be changed any time soon, if ever. There will never be the same support for this as there was for nerfing the chop rush. Slingshots just aren't as viable in multiplayer, and multiplayer is really the only format which provides complaints worth changing player-favoring aspects of the game such as this. It's not as though it's nearly as abusive as the trade exploit as this thread details.

Nares said:

Based on some of your previous statements, I gather that this is your position (which it may not be), that the whole system needs to be fixed.

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No, I don't expect or want the GP tech system to be changed. I'm not sure how you got that impression. I wouldn't have any problem with a minor tweak like you describe (adjusting the Great Prophet techs slightly to make CS less easy to get), but I consider it a pretty low priority. At higher difficulty levels, it's hard enough to get the Oracle, and at lower levels I don't particularly care because it's easy to win in any number of ways.

multiplayer is really the only format which provides complaints worth changing player-favoring aspects of the game such as this.

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I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean, but I think the chop adjustments were primarily driven by concerns about the single-player game, not primarily by the multi-player game. Of course it helped that both groups were generally supportive of an adjustment.

DaviddesJ said:

I'm not sure how you got that impression.

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Well, I got that impression from the following statement you made.

DaviddesJ said:

I'm doubtful that the developers intended the tactic (I would call it exploit) of avoiding certain early (prerequisite) techs in order to cause a GP to give you a more expensive/desirable tech instead of a less expensive/desirable one. I think it's an inadvertent consequence of the relatively simple system for determining which tech a GP will discover.

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It's the lack of specifics that created the confusion. That said, I don't think this thread was that poorly affected by the diversion from what is otherwise a closed case regarding the explotative nature of subsidized trading, or rather the (unintended) consequences of it.

Nares said:

Well, I got that impression from the following statement you made.

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Well, this seems a pretty big jump. I think it's (clearly) not an intended consequence. That doesn't mean it should be changed (much less need be changed). There are lots of things in the game that aren't intended but work more or less ok and don't really need to be changed. Also, experience with other games (including Civ3) leads to the conclusion that you have to be careful with pushing for changes because the cure can be worse than the disease (i.e., can introduce new problems that are worse than the old ones).

A small tweak to the Great Prophet tech priorities doesn't seem like a bad idea, though.

I do think that something should be done about the problem of AIs overpaying for resources. That could be done in several different ways. One is the AI keeps track of its "free gold" and cancels deals where it's paying for resources when it no longer feels it can afford them. Another is to do a better job of figuring out in the first place what a resource is worth, so the AI just never pays in the first place more than the benefit it gets. Another (not a complete solution, but not bad, and easy) would be for the AI to ignore gpt that it's receiving from a player in determining how much gpt it's willing to pay out to that player.

Ok, getting slightly more on topic, there is one thing that is actually relevant and worth talking about:

What exactly is the definition of an Exploit?

"Subsidies are an Exploit." "Subsidies are not an Exploit." Until there is an agreement here of what constitutes an Exploit, nothing can be resolved.

One reasonable one that Zombie69 seems to be working with is "An exploit is any usage of the game in a method not intended by the designers." It's not saying "thou shalt not 'sploit" or anything, its just saying that it came about as an unintended consequence of the way the game was coded. It's only real problem though is in the definition of 'intention'. Much room for subjectivity there.

Hans Lemurson said:

Ok, getting slightly more on topic, there is one thing that is actually relevant and worth talking about:

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That would also be a matter auf much subjectivity

I don't give a *peeep* if it's an exploit or not. It's there, I will use it and have lots of fun ripping the AI off. Bc that's what it's all about: the fun. If it spoils the fun you have while playing, don't do it, period.
In my case, I'm a lame low-diff player most of the time not looking for a challenge but rather for a relaxed game to relax my mind, I love beating the AI's with every stick I can get.

wolfigor said:

I think the commercial model shall be revised:
- AI shall be able to give a sensible price to resources based on their availability and strategic importance for development
- AI shall be allowed to go in deficit (down to a cap) to get a resource that's strategic for them at the time (and then readjust it's economy to bring the balance into parity)
- AI shall be able to giudicate if an acquired resource is no more needed (at the given price) and renegotiate or cancel the deal

With a more intelligent resource market system "subsidies" can remain in play... they'll have an extremely limited scope.

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I think this is the most important point of view in this topic. The problem is that the Ai is not able to caluculate a fair price for a resource, because it was not programmed to do it.

The additional resource gives hapiness/health, thus more pop, production and commerce. If this gives you only 1 additional commerce, would you pay 20gpt for it? No way. But the Ai is not able to do this calculation. They uses their available gpt as a proxy for the usefulness of the trade. By subsidizing, you are bypassing its ability to value trades fairly. Therefore it is an exploit in my point of view.

As to the point of real life subsidies. Yes, countries use to subsidise their exports to poor countries and then get more money from them. But this is possible only because the country's economy becomes dependent on that resource. It wont do that with a resource they don't need. And thats the difference with the Ai. Ai will do this with all the resources you are willing to sell them.

The best solution is the one suggested by wolfigor. Teach the Ai to value trade properly, so they won't pay you 20gpt for a resource they don't need, but also to offer more gpt then available for a resource they desperately need. You could still apply the economic warfare, but this time you would have to make that civ dependent on the resource you are selling and not just because the fact, that the other side does not know how to cancel deals.

I do not think this is an exploit. Have you seen what the AI asks for it's resources? I asked what they wanted for stone, and was told 6gpt and clams (1 of 2) and copper (1 of 1). If that isn't a ripoff, then how is 10gpt a ripoff or exploit?