Death of Conventional Strategies? [11/18 Patch Notes]

Why do units have to use their promotion on the turn they get them? I don't like that.

Because that's when they occurred. A unit becomes experienced with combat when the combat occurs. Saving it is an exploit.

The same is true for the SP change - societal changes occur over time, not when you open the sociological cryogenic chamber. I can see how people who play to game the game won't like these changes, but calling the way it has been more "strategic" strikes me as a little too self-complimentary. Any game that was cracked wide open in one month shouldn't fly its strategy flag too high.
 
All together, these changes seem to discourage doing anything except a pure ICS right from the start, with liberty to manage happiness, and swords/catapults for defense.

It's either that or a pure Honor Iron rush. You can get lengthy kill windows with Swords and Longswords as is. Double XP is inferior to quick Rifles, but not dramatically so.

The one civ that appears to benefit is Rome. Going for Workshops, then bombing in a bunch of quick Culture buildings at the right time could be hot.

Saving it is an exploit.

You could save promotions in Civ 4 and it wasn't a problem despite the partial heal when a promotion was used. The issue is not the ability to delay promotions. The issue is that with 1UPT and highly costly units, a 100% heal on demand is just too strong.

As for your complaint about saving SPs: the ability to save them opens up more possibilities. Forcing us down the Liberty and Honor trees just rewards the associated styles of play. It's not like we need to be incentivized to ICS or Honor rush.
 
It's going to significantly weaken the French, for sure.

The first thing that came into my mind is that Napoleon will be a completely different (and probably far less attractive) beast post-patch. Having said that, I like what I see in the list generally and I'm interested to see how it plays out.

For some reason, maintenance-free defensive building appeal to me even tho' I never build them or use them.
 
Because that's when they occurred. A unit becomes experienced with combat when the combat occurs. Saving it is an exploit.

The same is true for the SP change - societal changes occur over time, not when you open the sociological cryogenic chamber. I can see how people who play to game the game won't like these changes, but calling the way it has been more "strategic" strikes me as a little too self-complimentary. Any game that was cracked wide open in one month shouldn't fly its strategy flag too high.

Point A: If you build a barracks or whatever building that provides free experience, you need to instantly promote your unit as it is built? That's called strategy? It was one of the very positive features in Civ4 that you could wait for a promotion until you know which promotion would suit best in a given battle.
Yeah, I know that AI can't handle that, so let's nerf it duh

The underlying issue is that instant heal promo, which could simply be taken off the game.

Point B:
This would mean that in previous incarnations of civ, we would have to change civics or governments as soon as they come online? Makes no sense to me at all. Given that social policies are pretty unbalanced as they are, this is just another nerf to the game punishing players who actually plan their game.

Overall Firaxis is going down the path to eliminate the fun elements that are left in the game.

Don't get me started on the no maintenance for defensive buildings. Anyone every built such stuff purposely? Not as if we can quickly insert a wall into our building queue with the current 'building anything takes ages' model.
 
You could save promotions in Civ 4 and it wasn't a problem despite the partial heal when a promotion was used. The issue is not the ability to delay promotions. The issue is that with 1UPT and highly costly units, a 100% heal on demand is just too strong.

As for your complaint about saving SPs: the ability to save them opens up more possibilities. Forcing us down the Liberty and Honor trees just rewards the associated styles of play. It's not like we need to be incentivized to ICS or Honor rush.

Saving promotions in Civ 4 not being a problem is a matter of opinion. I never liked it. I dislike Civ 5's insta-heal even more.

Remember how GA's were triggered in Civ 2/3? By getting a kill with your UU. So players with early UUs would stash them for eons - in other words, not use their only UU! - then wheel their jaguar warrior out of the old folks' home to finish off a redlined knight. You could call that a strategic choice as well - timing your GA - but I felt it went completely against the spirit of the game.

I think trying to avoid that sort of absurdity is what's behind the changes to the promotions and SPs. If you already play a micro-managing, "gaming" style, then you won't like it, because there's less to game and more to micro-manage. I have no doubt that a superior gamer like yourself will just revise your strategies, and get a kick the stuffing out of the game in a new way. For those who don't play an ICS style because the whole concept got boring back in Civ 3, the changes should be a lot of fun.
 
Point A: If you build a barracks or whatever building that provides free experience, you need to instantly promote your unit as it is built? That's called strategy? It was one of the very positive features in Civ4 that you could wait for a promotion until you know which promotion would suit best in a given battle.
Yeah, I know that AI can't handle that, so let's nerf it duh

The underlying issue is that instant heal promo, which could simply be taken off the game.

Point B:
This would mean that in previous incarnations of civ, we would have to change civics or governments as soon as they come online? Makes no sense to me at all. Given that social policies are pretty unbalanced as they are, this is just another nerf to the game punishing players who actually plan their game.

Overall Firaxis is going down the path to eliminate the fun elements that are left in the game.

Don't get me started on the no maintenance for defensive buildings. Anyone every built such stuff purposely? Not as if we can quickly insert a wall into our building queue with the current 'building anything takes ages' model.

Point A: Barracks are an advanced training ground. It makes complete sense that as you complete your training, you walk out experienced.

Point B: As Shafer said, you're not changing civics, like you did in Civ 4, but adding options. I think the only exception to this is Piety and Rationalism. As for planning your game... you still have to plan it. Just differently.

Point C: The problem with defensive buildings isn't that they cost too much - it's that they do too little. Playing with a mod that beefs up the effect of walls does wonders for the game. Horsemen won't cut it most of the time. You should try it.
 
If the whole promotion change is done to keep people from saving up insta-heals, I wonder why they didn't simply make the insta-heal a one-time-only choice? So if you don't take it on the turn of/after promotion, it's no longer available but you can still save actual promotions if you choose to skip the heal.
 
Saving promotions in Civ 4 not being a problem is a matter of opinion. I never liked it. I dislike Civ 5's insta-heal even more.

Since the game went through multiple expansion cycles without a movement arising for the removal of the deferred promotions, I think we can consider the design decision reasonably sound. Compare to the chop, or insta-heals in Civ 5.

There is nothing inherently evil about deferred promotions. They produce a simple tactical choice: suffer more damage now in order to keep options open, or expend the resource in return for an immediate bonus.

Remember how GA's were triggered in Civ 3? By getting a kill with your UU. So players with early UUs would stash them for eons - in other words, not use their only UU! - then wheel their jaguar warrior out of the old folks' home to finish off a redlined knight. You could call that a strategic choice as well - timing your GA - but I felt it went completely against the spirit of the game.

Fixed it for you. What you describe is micro. It's bad game design. There are reasons I swiftly uninstalled Civ 3 and booted up SMAC if I felt the urge during that time period. That mechanic is one of them.

I think trying to avoid that sort of absurdity is what's behind the changes to the promotions and SPs.

That may be the intent, but the problem is that it is not the effect. The optimal response to this set of changes is to engage in precisely the sort of behaviors you disdained in Civ 3. Optimal play will require micro of XP gain and Culture gain. The latter is particularly problematic. Think about it: the intended check on horizontal growth is the Culture system. As you settle more cities, you gain fewer SPs. But several later SPs are strictly better than earlier ones, and costs scale, so the change creates the perverse incentive to encourage horizontal growth and early Culture avoidance in order to defer SP acquisition.
 
So now there won't be much point in making chariot archers, archer or cross/longbows, because their promotions don't get converted to the melee versions once upgraded to a melee unit.

I don't like the policy changes at all. This means we will always have to take a policy or two in the first 3 trees. However, if this change only applies to those Free policies from Wonders or the last policy in Piety, then it makes a little more sense to have to use it right away. Otherwise this change will force us to avoid earning any more than the single culture per turn from the Palace in our home city until we've unlocked the policies we want to use. This makes Cultured CS the worst one to ally with and makes ICS even stronger because it can very effectively prevent popping a new policy too early due to the increasing cost for each added city.

The worst bit about the patch is, those of us that don't like one or two of the changes can't continue playing without this patch, because Steam will force us all to have the patch.

just play in offline mode if you don't want the patch, or mod out changes that you don't like.
 
just play in offline mode if you don't want the patch, or mod out changes that you don't like.

I think you're confused, currently chariot archer/archery promotions don't change when you upgrade so they are essentially useless.

That's what he means. There'll be a bigger disincentive to build 'em as you can't stash those promos anymore.

Come to think of it, it could be quite a big nerf to China (my favourite civ). Bummer.
 
Since the game went through multiple expansion cycles without a movement arising for the removal of the deferred promotions, I think we can consider the design decision reasonably sound. Compare to the chop, or insta-heals in Civ 5.

There is nothing inherently evil about deferred promotions. They produce a simple tactical choice: suffer more damage now in order to keep options open, or expend the resource in return for an immediate bonus.



Fixed it for you. What you describe is micro. It's bad game design. There are reasons I swiftly uninstalled Civ 3 and booted up SMAC if I felt the urge during that time period. That mechanic is one of them.



That may be the intent, but the problem is that it is not the effect. The optimal response to this set of changes is to engage in precisely the sort of behaviors you disdained in Civ 3. Optimal play will require micro of XP gain and Culture gain. The latter is particularly problematic. Think about it: the intended check on horizontal growth is the Culture system. As you settle more cities, you gain fewer SPs. But several later SPs are strictly better than earlier ones, and costs scale, so the change creates the perverse incentive to encourage horizontal growth and early Culture avoidance in order to defer SP acquisition.

Promotions aren't a resource. They are an experiential reward, absorbed at the moment it is earned. Or so the designers seem to think, explaining this change. I happen to agree with it - not that it seems all that important. I think it's hilarious that some people are bemoaning the fact that they may have to start calculating optimal XP gain. It's like an alcoholic complaining that the liquor bottle is now halfway up the side of a cliff, and he has no choice but to climb the thing.

As you noted, the SP change is much more meaningful. If you think the value of later techs is so much better (not to mention achievable) that you would grow horizontally so as to avoid getting early ones, then go for it. It doesn't seem any more or less exploitative than the current system - it just limits your exploit options. But you may be jumping the gun. Are you sure the cost of your first SP will be the same with multiple cities as it will with one or two?
 
(didn't read all the replies but) OMG i'm willing to bet some of these people who are complaining because these changes are "going the wrong way" are the same people who seem to love to complain about the game being unbalanced and broke to the point of not playing it. Then all of a sudden their broken paths to victory are gone and now are complaining that the game just got "nurfed to the point of unplayable"?

....... That not make any since to anyone else?

whatever i for one welcome each of those changes but to each their own i guess. I just find it funny how it seems sometimes i see these same names in different posts seeming to argue both sides of a point saying how it's broke.
 
I hate these changes because I already did half of them and now I have to delete my changes :D
 
I'm excited for this patch. I never saved social policies, promotions, abused GS's or used maritime city states until late game anyway. However, with tougher cities, and nerfed horsemen offense will be MUCH harder, which is a bummer. But hey, if a warrior rush can work on Deity, it shouldn't be too bad.

I can still see ICS working. Not being to go straight down the order tree hurts a little bit, as well as nerfed maritime CS's, but trade routes/trading posts are still intact, and that's the only thing I really need.
 
SPs will be hated even more..........I meant, it need to be used as soon as it's earned? Won't this nerfed Cultural victories? Are they preparing an expansion pack addressing the post modern eras?
 
i welcome the patch. i play emperors level at the moment under the same circumstances as the patch now forces some "cheaters" to do.

i never safed SP, promotions and so on. i even build walls at border towns. only the nerf to horsemen is a bit confusing, i hope they dont make them useless to take towns without walls (nerf to base strength plus city penalty is imho over the top), especially for mongols.

ppl who stackstored SP for their strategy have to learn the real game again, but i tell you its possible. you can even unlock both modern trees together, believe it or not ;).

edit: i hope also they dont make knights and normal cav even more useless to their comparable units of the same era (eg longswords and rifles). right now they just have 1 more movement and get no def bonus, kinda balanced if you ask me for the retreat option (move after attack). but if they now make these units only usefull in openterrain without any other niche (no chance of attacking cities, useless vs pike promoted rifles, kinda slow in trees n hills and so on) noone will use them.
 
It's either that or a pure Honor Iron rush. You can get lengthy kill windows with Swords and Longswords as is. Double XP is inferior to quick Rifles, but not dramatically so.

The one civ that appears to benefit is Rome. Going for Workshops, then bombing in a bunch of quick Culture buildings at the right time could be hot.
An honor horseman rush will probably still work. I doubt they'll give enough of a nerf to horsemen to really stop it.

Instead of bombing culture buildings, I think culture city states would be a better way of taking late SPs. Save up gold for the first half, then ally with 3 or 4 culture states as soon as you've entered the renaissance or industrial era. Siam would be good for this.
 
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