Death of Conventional Strategies? [11/18 Patch Notes]

I'm not sure about the changes. They had to do something about the game being 1-2 levels easier then Civ IV. But I don't like the promotion and the social policies change. And they may have hit horseman too hard (Horse Archers were GREAT in Civ IV and could win most games in an early war up to IMM - I could easily proof that).

Also, I feel that now Honor will be even more powerful ( and it was already overpowered IMO, I wasn't using it anymore due to that). I know that now that everything I could do was nerfed, I'll be rushing all over with Honor.
 
A different cost of science buildings won't matter at all.
More costly just means that more cities are more beneficial, because large cities are so hard to get, and take such a long time (and population = science).
Less costly will just make them more efficient faster.
Less scientist slots wont matter either, as you can still have them filled (and have more cities with scientists).

Still we don't know what the changes are, if they make science victory faster with a non-ics style then its possible, which they could technically do.

You already get more research faster if you don't ICS and go library first problem is that as ICS scales up and gets things running it overtakes it. There a lot of ways they could rebalance the science buildings to allow for a higher pop city to produce more research than many low pop.

I don't really care to guess what they will do, but I can think of some changes that would indeed have the desired effect.
 
But -that's- exactly my problem. Yes I can work around it, but it saps out any fun I have with the game. As I already said good play and fun play are moving further away from each other...

Welcome to the club ;)

To reply to somebody else: Nerfing libraries also impacts ICS a bit.
 
Two of the three early social policy trees are garbage.. so now that you're forcing me to take honor, I guess I better go for an early rush. Oh and horsemen are worse so that great general can keep up with my warriors and swords!
 
Why are these semi twiks brought to the whole game? They should be implemented in the setup structure of the game when it begins.... That would be a standard game.

Feel like winning game on tiny forever click click click fine by me just go to setup game in options.

They must have a massive beta crew testing these updates ; you would think at least

It might help if the DEVs took more then just happiness into account when they set difficulty level. Yes i know AI civs start out with extra stuff at higher levels but that is not higher AI, and the AI's in-ability to calculate massive algorithms (that take time). It would seem to me that their scrambling to make changes to game so that the consumer will be happy.



In the end I approve. Its just another Mod.
 
I'm dropping this crap and just wait for the next expansion or just play with the mods. It kinda pisses me off that Civ5 which I think is a fun game (minus the overall slowdown, fix that devs), is now being streamlined to an early ICS or Horsey-Honor rush.
 
OK, in regards to the objections to the SP change - objections which I agree with - I'll take a shot at an explanation as to the pointlessness of the attempted "counterargument".

Unless you are one of the game developers, inferences about "intent" are pure opinion, nothing more. You might as well say, "If you'd only play the game the way _I_ intended it to be played...". But why should I be forced to play the game according to your opinion? Why should I be FORCED to take an SP at some fixed game turn, deferable only by a factor of a # of cities? Really think that was the "intent" of the developers?

It is evident from the upcoming changes that it was indeed the intent of the developers.

Players always find ways to abuse game mechanics that were unforeseen until the game was released. These changes are merely the correction of these oversights.
 
As some of the better players on this forum have already argued, i'm not really certain that this patch does anything other than make playing on immortal or deity much more micro-intensive if you want a ton of choice in strategy. Personally, i'm not a big fan of micro and I fear that some of these changes are going to render the only non-micro intensive strategies warrior rushing > swords, while going down liberty or honor.

I don't mind the promotion change, you can definitely make the argument that choosing promotions when earned is just as strategic as saving them. Also, unless I read the note incorrectly, you can still save a promotion until the next turn if you earn it in combat that turn, so it really does very little in stopping a horse rush. While you can't save them 20+ turns, you can still get in multiple attacks between heals, which is where it gets them most abusable imo. Thus, we need to remove the heal promotion.

I'm not real sure what the best fix for cultures is, maybe something like anarchy when you adopt a SP, which would also allow for a new leader with a no anarchy trait. The horse strength seems unnecessary, as movement is the real issue. Scientist should also work more like Civ IV with fixed beaker rate and great merchants need to good for something other than a golden age.
 
I have some suggestions for what the patch after this should do:

1)Players must construct new buildings as soon as they are available. No units can be built in a city until all buildings are finished. This will prevent the cheesy "grow your economy quickly" strategies by forcing players to make even the useless buildings that do nothing but hurt them.

2)Some players might attempt to circumvent change 1 by avoiding techs that unlock buildings. To prevent this, all players will be forced to follow a single tech path, which goes down evenly through all eras. Just like the AI!

3)Citizens cannot be reassigned, but must work the tile they are automatically assigned to.

4)To prevent the "flanking" exploit during warfare, all units now automatically march straight towards the nearest hostile city as soon as they're built.

With these changes, the AI will finally be competitive, and players will be doing things the way the designers intended.
 
Very nice pi-r8!

:lol:
 
Yeah, I'm not sure it's great for vanilla. I put that in my mod a few weeks ago, and it's good for that, since you get much more social policies, but you don't in vanilla. I've noticed several of my and thalassicus' changes get used in the patches. But those changes are sometimes made in the context of the rest of the mod, and I'm not sure if they take that into account. But yeah, most of these changes I fullheartedly agree with.
 
Two of the three early social policy trees are garbage.. so now that you're forcing me to take honor, I guess I better go for an early rush. Oh and horsemen are worse so that great general can keep up with my warriors and swords!

oh really? didnt know but thx your enlighted us :king: maybe we must be stupid to use liberty or even tradition in a MP FFA...
 
MP's broken beyond reason from what I hear, though.
 
My MP experience wasn't all that great. Actually it was very bad. But Civ IV LAN games used to rock so I hold out hope that it'll get there in time.

Lag is the big issue.
 
Hmmm, looks like early non-horse unit rush is going to be the only (early) strategy at higher difficulties. And Honor is going to be a great help in that for many Civs - some already get advantages in combat. But neither of the other Ancient SPs are very attractive.
 
* Policies must be selected the turn they are earned. (Added 11/18)
Out of everything in the game, SP are the most interesting. I wanna get some turns in before I decide on a direction. Do I have horses available? Which CS have I met? Taking that choice away will kill a great deal of fun.

Why not make it only 1 allowed per turn?
 
Hmmm, looks like early non-horse unit rush is going to be the only (early) strategy at higher difficulties. And Honor is going to be a great help in that for many Civs - some already get advantages in combat. But neither of the other Ancient SPs are very attractive.

I'm guessing ICS is still going to be the strongest strategy @ Emperor-Deity with this patch. Early warrior/sword rushes and ICS aren't mutually exclusive of course. But everything I can see thus far is that ICS will be only encouraged more with this patch.

We shall see.
 
oh really? didnt know but thx your enlighted us :king: maybe we must be stupid to use liberty or even tradition in a MP FFA...
Having played several multi-player games where I've steamrollered the map with Warriors, I would say that yes, you would be very ill-advised to go Tradition or Liberty, unless you happen to know you are in a game where none of your neighbors plans on launching an attack for the next several hours.

If I can't save my policies for Scientific Revolution, that pretty much limits my strategy to straight Honor tree in the early game.
 
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