Community Call to Power Project

what kind of problem ?

With the AI understanding this new system of war-weariness.

I think i remember reading somewhere that you could not use a negative happiness value only positive ones, whether that is true or not i don't know, maybe was part of a weird dream

Vanilla Civ5 uses negative happines too when you capture a city.

So, in order:

leeuw01: I literally just copy and pasted that entire post into my notes. Assuming that we don't discover a system that makes happiness "leaner," the suggestions you posted may very well become our new happiness check.

Gedemon: I too am worried about the AI not being able to understand what is happening. Granted, they get outrageous bonuses to happiness anyway, but still.

Fires: I think it was Spatz who figured out a way (may be mistaken), but it is a nasty workaround. It would just be better to wait for DLL
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Ok, so Fires just sent a preliminary description of the new tech system, and I am blown away. If I understand everything correctly, it essentially boils down to this:

There are now four Technology Categories: Growth (food and production), Economy (gold), Society (research and culture), and Military (offensive and defensive techs). In addition to these new Categories, there are three Major Breakthroughs per era. These breakthroughs represent major scientific achievement (ahem: breakthroughs ) that occurred in that era. Each tech is tied to at least one breakthrough. Once a breakthrough has been achieved, techs associated with that breakthrough are unlocked from all of the different Categories. In essence, this adds another layer of sophistication: First, the player selects a breakthrough, then they select a tech within one of the four categories.

I can tell you right now that it is going to take a lot of work shifting the tech tree around to accommodate the new system, but when it's all finished I know it will be worth it. I can also tell you that doing this without any input will seriously limit the awesomeness that this new system can achieve. So, I'm asking for help.

Specifically, we need to come up with sufficient breakthroughs for each of the eras (three apiece). These breakthroughs must be general enough to contain techs from each of the four categories, yet distinctive enough so that they don't overlap badly. For example, Fires came up with these three breakthroughs for the Ancient Era: Simple Tools, Cultivation, and Number Theory. As an example of the tech association, the Trading tech requires both a Cultivation and Number Theory breakthrough. Another tech, Mining, would require Simple Tools and Cultivation. And so on and so forth.

So, if you want to list some Breakthroughs, post below, along with the reasoning behind your decisions. Remember, there are only three Breakthroughs per era (the Technology Categories stay static throughout the eras) and each Breakthrough should be applicable to more than one Technology Categories. I don't need a lot of detail about which techs can fit under which Breakthrough, but you are more than welcome to if you want. Just be sure to explain why you think your proposed Breakthrough(s) should be in the era.

As chrome said this is big undertaking and every bit of input moves things along quicker, to that end i thought i would share a few pics to help focus the mind and give a more visual image, nothing on these is concrete just examples except maybe the tech selection page layout.

If someone wants to get dirty with some simple lua coding then the tech selection page might be worth doing (see pic).

Also there will be a need for some new artwork for these buttons on the tech selection page if anyone is interested let me know as i have an idea in mind that could be very cool.

Cool! Tomorrow when I get on my computer (on iPod right now) I will post an idea. I will edit this post, because I would like to be a bit greedy and reserve a spot
I know what the breakthrough name will be, so I'll post the name and era now and do the rest tomorrow:

Breakthrough: 'Ideological Thought'
Era: Industrial Era

EDIT: Hm, seems I woke up a little too late today
I'll think of something and post it here later today when I get back from work

Steam Power would definately be a major breakthrough, as would combustion. Engineering and metal working too, possibly

@chrome-rome: Glad you like it
For the modern area I think computers will be a good one.

The suggestion to create 4 categories reminds me of Alpha Centauri, and I like that . Here are a few of my breakthrough technology ideas:

6000BC-2000BC
The Wheel
Stone Tools
Metal Tools

2000BC-0AD
Writing
Mathematics

0AD-1000AD
???

1000AD-1500AD
Crop Rotation
Feudalism
Perspective
Printing Press

1500AD-1750AD
Mechanisation (prior to the Steam Engine there was an industrial revolution too)
Scientific Research
Colonisation

1750AD-1850AD
Steam Engine
Constitution
Sanitation

1850AD-1950AD
Combustion
Flight
Computers
Modern Healthcare
Nuclear Warfare

1950AD-2050AD
Genetics
Environmentalism
Internet (not just for science but also for free speech)

Not sure about years but
farming- led to permanent settlements
written word - knowledge and ideas saved and exchanged easier
Sailing- faster travel led to exploration and trade
Discovery of Steel- better weapons and armor
Gunpowder-changed warfare heavy armor obsolete
electricty- lighting/ power etc, mass producable steel and alliuminum.
semiconductors- led the way to much smaller electronics, computers no longer had to be large as rooms.

@Chrome & Fires: WOW!! I am impressed by the breakthrough system, this is something I have been anticipating for a LONG time, this is pretty much what I was getting at previously, well done! I have just two questions - 1. Do you have to research the breakthrough, or is it researched by choosing a tech that requires it? AND 2. Will the AI understand how to use this?

@Leeuw: I really loved your idea on war weariness. This should be fine tuned and tested. I really never understood why having one of your cities captured didn't result in unhappiness. Same regarding getting nuked. Or just plain war in general - it should make people unhappy!

@Chrome: As for breakthroughs in techs, I would suggest collecting the ideas and posting a list by eras so people can add as they see fit.

I smell a need for wikipedia

A lot of good ideas have been posted, but to organize things, it would be best if things were laid out in this format:




I think making sure the breakthroughs are all compatible with each other is as important as the breakthroughs themselves. Also, keep in mind that the breakthroughs (may) have to reach more than one tech category. I don't particularly mind if the breakthroughs have the same name as the techs, but if possible, new names will be preferable. That said, I really like the Written Word that Tanis proposed, as well as the Metal Tools by Hyronymus. If I can so humbly submit one, Deep Thought (philosophy rip-off ), that would make a complete set. So, if I were going to make a suggestion, it would go like this:

I've got a few questions:

1. Is it possible to ADD an era? If so, breakthroughs could be tuned more precisely.
2. Is it possible to maybe have 4 breakthroughs in an era? Maybe a certain era had more than another? (Or simply break it into 2 eras, or split up the eras differently).

I can't wait to get working on the graphics for this

nathanglevy said:

I've got a few questions:

1. Is it possible to ADD an era? If so, breakthroughs could be tuned more precisely.
2. Is it possible to maybe have 4 breakthroughs in an era? Maybe a certain era had more than another? (Or simply break it into 2 eras, or split up the eras differently).

I can't wait to get working on the graphics for this

Click to expand...

Indeed, that would be very nice. I always find the step from Ancient Times to Classical rather big. And Medieval times often overlook the developments of the Dark Ages, which really is a pity because in those Dark Ages many things were accomplished too.

Also, is starting in a different year than the default an option?

nathanglevy said:

I've got a few questions:

1. Is it possible to ADD an era? If so, breakthroughs could be tuned more precisely.
2. Is it possible to maybe have 4 breakthroughs in an era? Maybe a certain era had more than another? (Or simply break it into 2 eras, or split up the eras differently).

I can't wait to get working on the graphics for this

Click to expand...

1. Yes, but if too many are added the delicate sense of "epicness" that comes with each era will be lost. Let's look at that as a Plan B.
2. Again, yes it is. It might mess up the design plans Fires came up with, but assuming that it's not too much trouble, it is a definite possibility.

@Hyronymus: yes it is, but it is not balanced (yet).

But you can put more turns into an era to make up that loss of duration, right.

I'll try and write my points down in the way you proposes, chrome-rome. But I think it'll be next week until I manage.

1. Do you have to research the breakthrough, or is it researched by choosing a tech that requires it? AND 2. Will the AI understand how to use this?

Click to expand...

The breakthrough is researched i want to see a large research time for them so you have to think about your choice Yes the ai knows what to do.

1. Is it possible to ADD an era? If so, breakthroughs could be tuned more precisely.
2. Is it possible to maybe have 4 breakthroughs in an era? Maybe a certain era had more than another? (Or simply break it into 2 eras, or split up the eras differently).

Click to expand...

At this point in time i think sticking with the current eras is the best option. I wanted to keep the number of breakthroughs consistent for each era, the reasoning for this is to aid in simplifying the overall process for the player. I decided on 3 breakthroughs because 5 or more seemed like to many and removed the feel of, as chrome says, the "epicness" of these moments, 2 was too few so it was a toss up between 3 and 4 where 3 came out on top because i like odd numbers . That said i think if we need to we can go up to 4 as a maximum but this will have to be consistent for all eras.

Medieval Era

1. Theological Thought: Theology shapes the scientific, social, and cultural aprochs(not sure of that word) at least for the european civ

2. Gunpowder: Change completly the warfare and brings numerous other discoveries

Renaissance Era

1. Neo-Classicism (again not sure of the spelling) Rediscovery of lost knowledge during the Dark Age and a source of inspiration for the Lumières (French appelation for the renaissance scientist, direct traduction for Lights)

Industrial Era

1. Industrial Revolution: completly change the production and the society

Modern Era:

1. Computer: completly change science, society and can brings numerous other invention like internet


Also I think this system is suitable for an implementation of Invention like in Victoria II, I explain. So lets say the french research steam power, it will trigger randomly an event where the french will discover the James Watt steam power machine and this invention will allow the french to build an Ironclad.

So we can have multiple invention in a tech and it allow a far more realistic way then Napoléon that decide to research the computer, and the repercussion of the tech are spread on a more realistic scale.

Futhermore, the percentage of chance the invention is discover can be trigger to each Civ so China have greater chance to discover Gunpowder than the european civ so the each civ will feel really unique.

Pfiouuu hope my english is understandable

@Fires: Very nice . Do these "breakthrough" research items appear in a tech tree or a window similar to policies? Do they behave like normal techs (ie. researching them will give you a new building or enhance your units), or is the only thing they do "enable" more research?

If you do decide to break up eras, maybe even adding just one or two, you could of course make up for the "epicness" by all the techs you've been adding + add beakers so it would take longer. The only reason I thought of breaking up the eras is that since we are changing the way the tech tree works, ie. breakthroughs, then the eras should match technology breakthrough. Like, for example, I would break the modern age into "digital age" being the age where everything started to go digital, and "space age". And in the previous eras I would go "stone/bronze age"... etc, since the big breakthrough in bronze age was bronze working, I felt it should have it's own era.

I agree very much on keeping everything consistent and simple for the player. The changes are big enough as it is! 3 breakthroughs does sound simple enough for 4 tech areas.

The only thing that bothered me with the separate tech trees was that one or two trees looked stretched because they only had only 3 or 4 techs in an era compared to the other trees that had many. I assume you changed it from 5 to 4 trees to resolve this? Also, many trees made researching confusing, making it just 4 trees would simplify that too (not to mention the breakthrough list).

If you guys think it appropriate, we could make a youtube-video explaining the changes, so that a new player can fit in quickly

@Chrome: I was also wondering about putting the resources in the HUD:
1. Is it possible to ADD custom characters to the set?
2. If not, why not simply share characters (since corn and coffee look the same in the game, they might as well share the same character?).
3. Even without a character, it would be nice to see even just a text list of which resources I have. Since there are many, and it is quite important to know how many you've got.