Star of the Shogun: Realpolitik

Your entire argument is flawed. Napoleon is a known warmonger, and he just settled land that we Japanese had claimed. That is a legitimate cause for war, for you people that don't know the first thing about war and politics.

Yet, we know he thirsts for war. This is a KNOWN fact. It is not disputed by any. That is who he is. Sonereals plan would have us attack him when we are ready, and he's not. Your plan is to wait until he's ready to attack us.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that if we attack first, only those who are in the Japanese military may die. If THEY attack first, then not only may we lose the war, but even if we drive them away, our countryside will be devastated, hundreds of thousands of Japanese will die that NEVER EVEN SIGNED UP FOR THE ARMY, but who were living peaceful lives, IN ADDITION TO the soldiers in the military that will die defending our homes. You are basically saying its okay to throw away japanese lives if france attacks first. But the people won't be grateful to you when there was a chance you could have peeve ted those Japanese from dying in the first place.

You claim that the people won't support an offensive war against France. But why wouldn't they? The french just assaulted Japan's honor, which the government claims the people hold in such high esteem. They watched us claim some land, then laughed in our faces and proceeded to settle said land in front of our eyes. In any case, you speak as if you speak for the people, which you don't. Only LH can tell us what the people think. And I think its clear that the people will show us what they want on election day with their votes. Do they wish to wait, and live peacefully now? Or do they want to embrace war so that their sons and daughters may study philosophy, mathematics, and other peaceful subjects in a Japanese golden age, AFTER the french have been wiped out? The choice is THEIRS not yours to make for them.

The point nuke was trying to make was that everything we say here will be known by the people. They KNOW that you are arguing for Japanese citizens to die for the sake of political correctness. They also KNOW that another politician, Sonereal, is arguing for a plan that will prevent our country from becoming a smoldering ruin.

As to your military strategy, it is absolute crap. If we take on the french army on OUR soil, we will be the ones hurt, not them. We will lose men just as if we were attacking. They will lose men too, but their need is not as immediate. By the time we drive them back, our country will be in no shape to pursue a war, and the status quo will ensue if our leader has any sense. While they are invading, they would obviously leave a force at home to defend their cities, and by the time we defeat them and march to their cities with OUR WEAKENED FORCE they could have recruited an entirely new army to face us again.

And why in the name of Lighthearter would any nation attack France when they have a huge army attacking little old isolationist Japan? They would be smart and attack us so we get split between a bunch of people. Countries prey on the weak, not the strong. And if we somehow DO eliminate their army, why would we want another country attacking them? That would steal our spoils, hard won from many japanese lives lost? You overestimate our leadership I think. Even the best leadership cannot make men fly to Paris. If any other nations attack france, we will end up splitting france with them, and that is unacceptable.

You are the worst kind of politician. Doing things that the people will like you for. A true politician, the kind that does what will help the people, not make them like them, would be responsible and risk angering the people in order to do whats best. And in any case, we don't know who the people support yet.

I would also like to remind you that maintaining a large army is extremely expensive. We can't do that, and still hold our own with the french in other areas at the same time without financial strain. You also seem to forget that once we get more sophisticated weaponry, the French will most likely not be too far behind. Deadlier weaponry would just kill more people. Is that what you want? To wait so that the war is even bloodier?
 
Chapter Two: Initiation

Kenichi eyed the Great Barracks in Kyoto. The building was massive - easily the size of his family's estate. The giant pagoda stretched four stories into the air, and from the open courtyard Kenichi could hear marching and the shouts of the sergeants. It was in that barracks that the Japanese Self-Defense Forces were trained.

Kenichi turned his head. That title brings shame upon so many great warriors. Why should we limit ourselves to standing and waiting for doom to fall upon us all?

He gnawed on that thought for a moment, then discarded it. Such is the will of the Shogun, it appears. Judging by the Sonereal-Diggler debates that have been wracking the capital these past weeks, this might be changing.

It was then that he noticed the poster.

It was clear, the colors vibrant. There was a certain elegant simplicity about it - a mound of Japanese corpses lay on the ground, blood leaking all around them. Most of the bodies were of women or children. Each had a single stab wound to the back, directly beneath the neck. A line of French soldiers, wearing flamboyant armor and with giant mustaches and sinister goatees, was approaching, waving spears. Atop the mound, three men stood, each holding a bloody knife behind his back.

The words on the poster were even more powerful - the three men were yelling, as one, "COUNTERATTACK!" while Japanese soldiers gaped at the bodies. At the bottom was the phrase Sacrifice Six to be Become a God to Four.

Kenichi's eyes widened as they settled on the three men. It was uncanny how closely they resembled Daimyos Dem Taqat, Diggler and Mosher. The message was clear - these men will betray you.

Kenichi studied the poster for a few more moments, then turned away. He recognized Sonereal's turn of phrase at the bottom, but he admitted that it proved nothing - anyone could have used it.

He noticed more posters like it as he walked towards the marketplace, most simply variations on the same idea. But he saw one that was different - and he realized that he'd seen more of it, but had simply been lost in thought.

It was a throne hall, like in a daimyo's estate. The same three Daimyos as in the other poster sat on thrones, Mosher pouring sake into Dem Taqat's glass, while he and Diggler threw darts at a wall. All were laughing. The same message as on the other poster - Sacrifice Six to Become a God to Four - lay at the bottom, right underneath a crowd of miniature Japanese people bowing in reverence.

Then Kenichi realized that the thrones were made of the corpses of Japanese men and women, and the sake was colored red. Just visible, a French flag was draped over Diggler's shoulder.

Kenichi shook his head. The posters were exceptionally violent attacks, obviously aimed towards the pacifist half of the French debate. Kenichi, now that he knew what to look for, easily found another dozen of the posters - each slightly different - around the market.

He finished purchasing the knives he had come to replace, then started home. Normally, a servant would have done the chore, but Kenichi felt an obligation to make the walk himself. After all, he was the one who had broken the knives during his practice. His father had laughed when he insisted on heading to the market on his own, but there had been pride in the Daimyo's eyes.

As he climbed the hill up towards his family estate, Kenichi saw more posters, with the same message. Whoever had posted them had obviously spent a lot of political favor and capital to get them everywhere.

And then he noticed a new one, right next to the main gate into his family's estate. It hadn't been there when he had left - Kenichi was sure he would have seen it. Curious, he stepped over and inspected it.

It was perhaps simpler than the others - a teenage Japanese girl was soundly asleep in her bed, all the lamps out. But the window was open, and three monstrous barely-human figures were creeping through. Their tongues were forked, their skin was almost red. They all held French-style rapiers and wore the mustache and goatee often associated with that people. Their crimson-glowing eyes were fixed on the girl.

Sacrifice Six to Become a God to Four.

Kenichi turned away slowly. The posters were having a powerful effect on him. They all showed the French as a threat, and reinforced the points Sonereal and his allies had been making.

Kenichi moved through the main gate, lost in thought as he pondered the posters.

-L
 
1. Claiming land is when we settle. What you said they did was break "Dibs" which is what little kids call. The only way to claim land is to settle it, they had far better claims to the land because they beat us to it.

2. The way you guys have been talking, it sounds like he is always ready for a war. You just called Japan small and isolationist, how can we stand to the power of the French?

3. The French didn't assault our honor, they assaulted our leader's greed. I'm all for Japan becoming powerful, but only if we can do it legitimately. If calling dibs on land makes it yours, we should call dibs on the entire planet and just war everyone.

4. If we take on the French on our soil, we have the defensive bonus. Our lands don't necessarily have to be laid waste to if we can be aggressively defensive, IE using archers to harass, putting soldiers in strategic locations.

5. The most powerful nations in history are destroyed through excessive warfare, it hurts the economy and the population. The only way to destroy our enemies and not be destroyed ourselves is to develop reasons for the war. So far your only reason is that Napoleon is a warmonger and is near us. I've had wars with every civilization at one point, so what you say is that we should preemptively strike EVERY SINGLE NATION IN THE GAME.

6. I stand nothing to gain from this, I am new, so in no way can I run for Shogun yet, and I have no intentions. I want to do what's best for Japan, and alienating the world against us is not it.

7. If we can't maintain a large army, then the French doing it would help us gain an edge on them. As of right now, the French could not overcome the difficulties of a siege, allowing us to build our military.

Right now, I think the best we can do is establish defensive positions, and upgrade our economy so we can buy units in time of crisis.


Also, I am leaving my current party and going independent for now, as I don't want to hurt my party with my crazy ideas of peace and defense.
 
Well I can't compete with that. So I'm going to cede my argument, do what you guys want, I will have no say in this matter.
 
OOC: To be fair Dirk, I haven't seen anyone carry an argument so well in a long time. Hopefully you stick around.
 
1. Claiming land is when we settle. What you said they did was break "Dibs" which is what little kids call. The only way to claim land is to settle it, they had far better claims to the land because they beat us to it.

2. The way you guys have been talking, it sounds like he is always ready for a war. You just called Japan small and isolationist, how can we stand to the power of the French?

3. The French didn't assault our honor, they assaulted our leader's greed. I'm all for Japan becoming powerful, but only if we can do it legitimately. If calling dibs on land makes it yours, we should call dibs on the entire planet and just war everyone.

4. If we take on the French on our soil, we have the defensive bonus. Our lands don't necessarily have to be laid waste to if we can be aggressively defensive, IE using archers to harass, putting soldiers in strategic locations.

5. The most powerful nations in history are destroyed through excessive warfare, it hurts the economy and the population. The only way to destroy our enemies and not be destroyed ourselves is to develop reasons for the war. So far your only reason is that Napoleon is a warmonger and is near us. I've had wars with every civilization at one point, so what you say is that we should preemptively strike EVERY SINGLE NATION IN THE GAME.

6. I stand nothing to gain from this, I am new, so in no way can I run for Shogun yet, and I have no intentions. I want to do what's best for Japan, and alienating the world against us is not it.

7. If we can't maintain a large army, then the French doing it would help us gain an edge on them. As of right now, the French could not overcome the difficulties of a siege, allowing us to build our military.

Right now, I think the best we can do is establish defensive positions, and upgrade our economy so we can buy units in time of crisis.


Also, I am leaving my current party and going independent for now, as I don't want to hurt my party with my crazy ideas of peace and defense.



You say we 'called dibs'. You could say that. Or you might say that we had announced an intent to settle that area. The plan was announced to the public, and therefore it is likely the French knew about it. They practically laughed in our faces as they settled the land. If you don't call that assaulting ones honor, by knowing of their plans and spiting them, then I don't know what you would.

We couldn't stand up to them right now if they chose to attack. Thats part of the problem. We have to get stronger, then attack him before he gets even stronger than that. If you want an eternal arms race so as to deter him from attacking, on your head so be it.. Then you will doom both our civilizations, not just his.

So your plan is a long never ending war of attrition, which would slowly reduce our farmland to ashes, our mines to rubble, and people to corpses, and would kill scores upon scores more people than a first strike would? What you are proposing is a longer war, which would result in more dead, more destruction, and more damage to the economy. Your right. War hurts an economy. So best to keep the war short so the damage is minimal and the gains would allow us to spur our growth even more to catch up to the other civilizations.

The difference between us and the french maintaining armies is that their would be fueled by conquest. they don't intend to build an army and let it sit around. They intend to use it to conquer and plunder, and those riches that they plunder as well as the cities they capture would fuel the standing of their army. Its much like the Ummayed (I believe it was them) Muslim Caliphate that kept on conquering and using its plunders to fuel its advance and financials. But when stalled after Iberia in the Pyrenees, it faltered. What you are asking is for us to keep pace with Napoleon in the size of his army, causing us to grow stagnant.
 
That's a dumbed down version of what I was saying, but I already ceded the argument.
 
Foreign Diplomacy
Why are people talking about france like they know the country? Did we not just have a isolation government in place? If politicians have some kind of knowledge of the french that others do not I would ask that they share exactly HOW they got this knowledge.

Again, seeing as we worked under an isolation government I find it strange that people believe ANY foreigner could have had access to our own lands.

Distorted Reflections
The Eldorado spot is much closer to the French then the Japanese. Why was this barely talked about? Were we really going to plant such a forward city? To do so would have invited attack yet we had a bare minimum military. We proclaimed that we did not care about foreign lands or their intentions, yet we are getting upset that a rival nation has the same view of us as we do of them.

The actions of inevitability
Yet I am not against a war. I am just against Diminishing ourselves in the process. If we must go to war let us tread path of Bushido not the Berserker.

Plan: Settle the next city between our current lands and the city state to the east. Then use that city state as a grindstone to practise and train our troops. It also creates a path towards Lyons, the French City, without leaving any noticeable defensive flaws in city states. Taking the city state next to the French will also either force the french into making a faux pas, either by blustering at our military strength or making demands.

Reason and Rhyme: We are better then the French, ours is a nation of Strength and Honour. Sure we could sneak attack the French like the dastardly Ninja. Or we could wait for them to attack us to gain some distorted moral high ground that does not exist. But doing either diminishes us. Instead we can march forward like the unstoppable Juggernaut we are.

There is a saying. "A rock falls upon a egg, alas for the egg. A egg falls upon a rock, alas for the egg." If French subjugation is an inevitability then let us choose the manner of our victory. It is not noble to let some die to gain moral high ground before defending the many. A sacrifice is only true and good when it is freely chosen, to manipulate others into being sacrificed is despicable. Yet also it is not honourable to belittle our enemies into monsters in order to gain a moral high ground for a sneak attack. It is better to lift yourself up then to push others down in order to feel righteous.

Look upon your actions with shame.

Let us march towards France not as Berserkers, or Ninja, or cowards would make others sacrifice without being willing to sacrifice themselves, let us march as Japanese. Let the French see us coming. Let them bluster with false entitlement. Let them reveal all of their flaws and fears. We are Japan. Resistance is Futile.
 
Do we ave ranged units? I say we should not rush with our measly clubs to beat on any city's door but to develop the Archer before we attack. And I mean, WE ATTACK.

And I think we should purchase as many troops as we possibly can. Settle at a producible location too.
 
Dear People of Japan.

I am the only one that will lead you to victory against the French.

Right now there are 2 opinions:

1) Attack the japanese right now that is silly because we are not ready.

2) Defend only, that will give the chance to the french to destroy us.

My opinion is:

a) Advance in techs.

b) find allies.

c) Create a huge armed force.

d) Destroy France.

So vote for me!!!
 
A Crazy Response
Dear People of Japan.

I am the only one that will lead you to victory against the French.
You do not state a reason for this

Right now there are 2 opinions:
There are many opinions not just 2

1) Attack the japanese right now that is silly because we are not ready.
I believe you mean French, Talking about attacking your homeland does not help your initial theory that you are the one to lead Japan to victory

2) Defend only, that will give the chance to the french to destroy us.

My opinion is:

a) Advance in techs.

b) find allies.

c) Create a huge armed force.

d) Destroy France.

How does this make you different/better then everyone? You have no specifics :confused: At least those supporting expansion, defence, assault, peace, diplomacy etc all included details surrounding their thoughts and possible plans.

So vote for me!!!
Don't you mean vote for your party?
 
Invading France is not a bad idea. Nows the chance to prove the might of our samurai. They have taken our lands (settling El Dorado) and we must take them back.

on the other hand helping our allies (Bucharest) comes first, even if the ally is just a city state. I would like the next administration to build an army to prepare for the war against France, we will have this army prove their worthiness by aiding Bucharest, once they have proven themselves we will invade Lyon. WHO'S WITH ME!
 
they're French.

Yes. Yes they are...

Well I can't compete with that. So I'm going to cede my argument, do what you guys want, I will have no say in this matter.

Very well. Then I shall go on alone.

OOC: To be fair Dirk, I haven't seen anyone carry an argument so well in a long time. Hopefully you stick around.

OOC: Yeah, he held it up pretty dang well. I know how hard it is to outlast Son. And I'm still trying. Says something about me really. *cough*idiot*cough*

Foreign Diplomacy
Why are people talking about france like they know the country? Did we not just have a isolation government in place? If politicians have some kind of knowledge of the french that others do not I would ask that they share exactly HOW they got this knowledge.

Again, seeing as we worked under an isolation government I find it strange that people believe ANY foreigner could have had access to our own lands.

The esteemed Ravus is right. There is no reason to beleive the french will attack us, we have not even attempted to establish peaceful relations with them. You all speak of them as warmongering expansionists. Prove it. Name one of their wars. Point me too one city settled in lands they could not reasonably claim. There are no examples of this. Your statements are unfounded scaremongering.

Distorted Reflections
The Eldorado spot is much closer to the French then the Japanese. Why was this barely talked about? Were we really going to plant such a forward city? To do so would have invited attack yet we had a bare minimum military. We proclaimed that we did not care about foreign lands or their intentions, yet we are getting upset that a rival nation has the same view of us as we do of them.

Exactly. I argued all along against the El Dorado spot. It was never going to be the best option for Japan. Better we never thought of it than we fight a war over territory we have no claim to. There is plenty of land we can take without these foreigners influence, why do we seek out theirs? It seems to me that these bloodmongers find French Lands more valuable than Japanese lives. Is this really the correct altitude from our leaders?

DT
Fighting On :shake:
 
@christos: Don't you realize that yours is the second option you proposed and said that is not good for us?

To all:
The Isolationists won't support a declaration of war to France. It is not a time when we can afford a war. War is always expensive, and Japan can't afford such expense. Furthermore, we should think about our settler. We've been deprived of the most perfect spot, ElDorado, and now we shall settle elsewhere.

I propose that the spot is located by the sea, preferably with access to Luxury resources. I also want to draw the public attention to another neighbour, the Iroquois, who are much nearer than the French. They threaten further northern expansion, and we should carefully watch their developments.

Anyway, as I've said, the ISO won't support a war with France that is not declared on us by the aforementioned country. Nevertheless, we support the growth of the Japanese military in order to be able to face any threats coming from foreign countries.

I would like to announce that if the ISO is in the government, we will be willing to establish trade with foreigners as long as it is is carried out in Copenhagen (for it isn't fully Japanese) and it involves resources only.

Finally, I want to finish with a message of hope and peace: if the ISO is in the government, no war will be declared. New military units will be placed outside our borders in order to watch for any French troops coming near our soil. And, before that, they are to fulfil the mission that Bucharest asked us to.

I call all pacifists for a useful vote. Vote the ISO, and as I'm pretty sure that the GDRP agree, vote the CAJ.
 
Furthermore, we should think about our settler. We've been deprived of the most perfect spot, ElDorado, and now we shall settle elsewhere.

I propose that the spot is located by the sea, preferably with access to Luxury resources. I also want to draw the public attention to another neighbour, the Iroquois, who are much nearer than the French. They threaten further northern expansion, and we should carefully watch their developments.
if we raze lyon then we have our spot back!

settling by teh see is an okay alternative
 
Indeed, war is not feasible at the time, but we should make a small defensive force, as defending with few troops is MUCH easier than attacking. Let us grow technologically, becoming superior to them in all regards, and when they dare threaten us with spears, we'll be ready with weapons and defenses no living person can dream of yet!

Kiloku decides to enter the recently founded library, a marvel, with more knowledge collected in a single place than he'd ever seen before. But there was no one studying there, the scrolls were all hidden away in their shelves.
He bursts out of the library, to immediatelly find a group of teenaged boys just lounging about in a courtyard
"Do you kids believe YOU are the future of japan if you are not IN THERE studying to advance the knowledge and culture of your nation? GO IN THERE RIGHT NOW!"

The kids, scared with this middle-aged looking man go straight to the library, just to make him calm down.
"Damn kids."


My point is: Let's invest in technology.
 
I had something to say that was obsoleted.. AGAIN!!!!! I'm going insane :crazyeye:
 
I find it intriguing that even though the "defensive" view is permanently tainted amongst the voting populace, people are still arguing for it.

If we are going to meet France, let us meet them as an inexorable assault. Two divisions of Archers(which we have) & Two or three divisions of Spears(which we do not have) shall prove more than sufficient for an assault. Additional Archers can be used to protect our cities on the off chance France sneaks a division past our attacking wave.

Let us just say that, in regards to France, I have my own sources. They will eventually strike us, that is the way of nations. Besides, should we not strike first anyway? We are Japan, we are mighty warriors.

-Daimyo Nukeknockout
 
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