Liberty Domination Walkthrough

Lost around turn 320 with Assyria. Things went well, 4 cities on river, one of them was amazing. Capital kinda sucked compared to Nineveh, which was super good (2 sheep, 2 cattle, 2 horse, river, 2 bananas and deer).

Hit artillery around turn 180-185, upgraded my prebuilt cannons and went on conquering zulu. Took me a while, around turn 230-235 I was done with him. Then I took Constantinope at turn 265. However Greece became runaway, he took out Babylon and Netherlands, he practically had half the continent. I tried to attack Greece but map sucked. I had to cross two choke points, one in north, one in south to get to him. The one in the north also had 2 ally CSs that I had to get through. The invasion didnt seem like it would happen so I tried to switch to science, however it was too late, Greece won by Diplo.

Would like some more specific advice. I'll try this again with Assyria, the UA is fun.

Dubio did you manage to take any capitals early in the game? It's so much harder if you have to do them all at the end. In fact, I've never won on Deity unless I take at least one capital by T80 and 2 before Artillery. Try to make CBs and siege towers work for you, then upgrade to XBs. They should have range by then, so you have England's UU for free!

consentient said:

Dubio did you manage to take any capitals early in the game? It's so much harder if you have to do them all at the end. In fact, I've never won on Deity unless I take at least one capital by T80 and 2 before Artillery. Try to make CBs and siege towers work for you, then upgrade to XBs. They should have range by then, so you have England's UU for free!

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Took Constantinople, Kyoto and Ulundi. All after turn 180 though. Could take Stockholm but wanted to go Greece first. Greece had Amsterdam and Babylon so to take it I had to fight Greece but taht didnt happen.

I suck at fighting with anything below Artilleries (I seem to lose CBs and XBs very easily) so could you tell me (roughly, not specifically) how many siege towers and CBs I'd need for early conquest domination?

I'm not the best warmonger in the world, I'm just learning and still lose a few units, but if you make 2 siege towers and 6-8 CBs, plus some warrior/spears/horses for meat shields, you should be able to take a capital around T60-80.

It's all about having the right edge. If they have only archers and warriors and spears, you will find it very easy. If they have CBs of their own and/or swords, you will find it harder, but by moving your troops around correctly, using workers as bait, etc, it's still do-able.

If they have pikes you will need to fight much smarter, and keep melee units between those pikes and the CBs. If they have long swordsmen, you need XBs pretty much.

Watch Acken's Babylon video for ideas on how to war better, though this is a tradition start.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=531859

There's really no point playing as Assyria if you aren't gonna do an early war. They need to be taking cities in each era so you can use their UA to steal techs from the top half of the tree.

Good evening...

My hats off to the OP.

After numerous attempts I am a miserable failure at a deity liberty start. It generally goes the EXACT same way every game. I start, seems I am off somewhere alone, 1 free settler, 1 hard built, turns out someone is now not too far away. Pyramids somewhere between 45 and 55, else NC by 65, happy, happy.. all is going well enough aside from the lack of diverse luxes. Oh and uhh.. either no horses, or no iron. or both. Now the fun begins.

Turns out Mr. NotTooFarAway is without exception the runaway tech and military leader. By the time I realize this he can crush me as if he were... brushing away a fly.(Stronghold quote-please ignore) Usually I spend those first 35-45 turns pretty well self absorbed in getting huts, stealing workers, fighting off barbs, searching for locations that would be suitable for more cities if they weren't 40 tiles away.

So here I am... 3 cities, on target for teching, churning out cbs, internals racing back and forth, perhaps 1 going to Mr. NotTooFarAway for the extra beakers. All good right?

Wrong.

I've tried cb rush on Mr. NTFA and though it may go well for a while he always seems to be able to pull troops from straight out of the abyss at exactly the right(for him, wrong for me) time. This inevitably turns into a back and forth exchange where I get my bows to just about Logistics. Then he out techs me, pulls more troops out of his ass and somehow manages to kill my leveled bows 1 by 1 through what can only be described as unbelievably high rolls on his part and ridiculously low rolls on my part.

I've gone the "hunker down and out tech him" rout as well. This might actually work if not for the repeated no coal, no oil, no aluminum, no uranium. The irony is palpable when he complains that I'm massing troops on the border of the city that he just plunked down right next to me to get that 1 fish tile.

Of course, the third option is that my empire has a broad border and some warmonger stretches across the map by turn 115 and annihilates me by flanking me with his gi-normous army.(Glares at Attila)

I don't think I'm actually doing anything wrong in the big picture sense. I don't know that I'm actually seeking advice. Perhaps I'm just on an unfathomably long string of unfortunate happenstance. Regardless, I will press on

Cause I'm an idiot like that

General Angst said:

Good evening...

My hats off to the OP.

After numerous attempts I am a miserable failure at a deity liberty start. It generally goes the EXACT same way every game. I start, seems I am off somewhere alone, 1 free settler, 1 hard built, turns out someone is now not too far away. Pyramids somewhere between 45 and 55, else NC by 65, happy, happy.. all is going well enough aside from the lack of diverse luxes. Oh and uhh.. either no horses, or no iron. or both. Now the fun begins.

Turns out Mr. NotTooFarAway is without exception the runaway tech and military leader. By the time I realize this he can crush me as if he were... brushing away a fly.(Stronghold quote-please ignore) Usually I spend those first 35-45 turns pretty well self absorbed in getting huts, stealing workers, fighting off barbs, searching for locations that would be suitable for more cities if they weren't 40 tiles away.

So here I am... 3 cities, on target for teching, churning out cbs, internals racing back and forth, perhaps 1 going to Mr. NotTooFarAway for the extra beakers. All good right?

Wrong.

I've tried cb rush on Mr. NTFA and though it may go well for a while he always seems to be able to pull troops from straight out of the abyss at exactly the right(for him, wrong for me) time. This inevitably turns into a back and forth exchange where I get my bows to just about Logistics. Then he out techs me, pulls more troops out of his ass and somehow manages to kill my leveled bows 1 by 1 through what can only be described as unbelievably high rolls on his part and ridiculously low rolls on my part.

I've gone the "hunker down and out tech him" rout as well. This might actually work if not for the repeated no coal, no oil, no aluminum, no uranium. The irony is palpable when he complains that I'm massing troops on the border of the city that he just plunked down right next to me to get that 1 fish tile.

Of course, the third option is that my empire has a broad border and some warmonger stretches across the map by turn 115 and annihilates me by flanking me with his gi-normous army.(Glares at Attila)

I don't think I'm actually doing anything wrong in the big picture sense. I don't know that I'm actually seeking advice. Perhaps I'm just on an unfathomably long string of unfortunate happenstance. Regardless, I will press on

Cause I'm an idiot like that

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Looks like to me you're just attacking too late with composite bowmen or too tough targets. They become somewhat obsolete after around 80 turns depending on the AI you're fighting.

On Deity composite bows are good to kill very early or to kill carebears (gandhi, pedro etc). You will need also good terrain to do it (open and/or target city on flat).
If you spawn next to a militaristic AI and terrain sucks, CB just won't cut it. Bribing dows should also reduce the AI force.

If your CB are getting one shoted every turn by a city+garrison it means CB aren't good enough. They should at least be able to survive a turn. And then they should make enough damage so that by retreating 1 CB every turn (if AI doesn't attack your melee unit) you are guaranteed to take the city in a good time.

If you went for a traditional NC start, try to attack at crossbow tech instead and farm XP on a CS before then.

Building on what Acken says (and he's 100x the player I am but I'm just sharing my experience), if one of your close neighbours is a military giant, there is no point making them an early victim. Instead, wait to out-tech them, and slow down THEIR tech and build progress by getting them absorbed in wars with all and sundry.

For example, I'm still not a good enough Deity player to kill Shaka before he gets Impis. So I keep him on good terms (wouldn't recommend a DoF unless you HAVE to) and then pay him to attack other stronger targets. Paying him to war with care bears, as someone above termed them, is silly cuz it's just paying him to grow his already heavily ICS-ed empire.

Example scenario:

Left-to-right on a rectangular-y pangaea

1 3 5 7
2 4 6 8

1 = Korea
2 = Portugal
3 = Zulu
4 = You, let's say Assyria
5 = Rome
6 = Sweden
7 = Persia
8 = England

My meta-strategy would be

1. I want to take Seoul and Lisbon before Shaka does
2. While keeping Shaka busy with Rome
3. While keeping Sweden alive so I can DoF him
4. Also DoF with Persia and/or England as long as possible.
5. When I have out-teched Zulu I will pay him one more time to attack whoever, then denounce, DoW, and wipe him out completely. The penalty for wiping him out may start to rattle Rome, Sweden Persia, England, but with any luck I've out-teched them too, and can start a T180-200 sweep across the rest of the map with my artillery/tanks.

TLDR: Ideal scenario with liberty domination: First two capitals (Seoul and Lisbon) by T80, then tech to get edge over Zulu, and finish the map when I have artillery and tanks.

[EDIT: For those who are struggling, might I suggest playing as Germany. I had my first Deity win with them, and I think that they have very good early and later game abilities/units. Stealing barb archers and paying not as much to keep them around is wonderful, and panzers are, well, fricken amazin]

InDubioProReo said:

Would like some more specific advice. I'll try this again with Assyria, the UA is fun.

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I am finishing up my second BNW game using Assyria, just Emperor though. UA is fun, but I am not quite getting the UB. A loaded Royal Library is suppose to buff units, but it must not be 15xp like the other buildings. Any idea how much exactly?

I've never bothered trying to fill the slots, beetle, and I play Assyria a lot. I've not seen VidLPs of anyone else trying to make use of this either. I think it's poorly designed and out of kilter with the rest of the civ's design.

consentient said:

I've never bothered trying to fill the slots, beetle, and I play Assyria a lot. I've not seen VidLPs of anyone else trying to make use of this either. I think it's poorly designed and out of kilter with the rest of the civ's design.

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I agree with you about the poor design, but why pass on even 5xp if its almost no work? I would guess you only need them the turn the unit spawns, but for so little xp it's too tedious to shuffle great works around. Still, seems like a no-brainer to put the writings in the Royal Libraries where you are building most of your units.

When I play Domination on Deity I have no interest in building guilds in the first place, let alone using the GWAMs to make works as opposed to bulging towards the next policy/GA.

With Assyria I ideally want 2 or 3 capitals by T90, then I will beeline dynamite and try to take the other 4 or 5 capitals in a big push T170-240.

I don't need guilds or 5XP for that. Usually 6 of my first 8 CBs will survive as XBs/gatlings with range and logistics, maybe even cover. Plus I'll have 2 or 3 siege towers that will survive to make trebuchets i can give volley to, and the horse units I build along the way can become landslips/tanks etc.

But really if you've done it right (I don't always) then artillery + horses are all you need. That and about 10 workers for roads

I failed again This time with China, I expanded to 6 cities and captured Brazil's two juicy cities (one of them capital) with Chu-Ko-Nus. Then I decided to go for Dynamite, got it on turn 189. Started attacking Austria, captured two cities, but she had basically limitless units, so many Hussars and Rifleman oh my goodness. After 30 turns all I had was those two cities and then she got Flight around turn 230 and I started to lose my units aswell. When I started attacking on turn 203 I had 7 artillery, 3 cavalry and 1 lancer. Is this a weak army in itself? (She still had cannons/Crossbows and also Hussars when I started attacking)

My question is, I got the Brazil's capital around turn 130-140. Should it be earlier? Also, should I expect to capture another capital with XBs? Should I go Education->Machinery or Philosophy->Machinery? I don't really know what I'm doing wrong, my timings don't seem that off for Artillery. Maybe it's my micro that sucks? I really don't know. Thanks a lot for suggestions.

7 artillery at turn 203 is not much yes.

If you want reasonable conquests with crossbows, you should probably go machinery before education. Getting it after education will give you a turn 115-120 machinery which is a bit late. Should be easy to kill one guy with that though, 2 with good conditions.

But it's not required to try to kill someone with crossbows, you can try to go straight for artillery/cav. For a civ like china however, just get machinery after philosophy and you should be able to kill at least 3 guys. But this delays education/renaissance so it's questionable if you plan on getting artilleries. On pangea however you may have the opportunity to win with chu ko nu, in which case philosophy isn't even required.

Try to hit dynamite sooner than T189: don't settle your GS bulb important techs instead (schools, dynamite, flight), use oxford etc. T189 artillery isn't terrible but you won't be able to win with it, you'll kill one or 2 AI and then will need flight. It's okay to need flight, I finished the Sweden deity challenge mostly using bombers. But you need to make sure your science is acceptable enough to be able to get that tech.

Acken said:

7 artillery at turn 203 is not much yes.

If you want reasonable conquests with crossbows, you should probably go machinery before education. Getting it after education will give you a turn 115-120 machinery which is a bit late. Should be easy to kill one guy with that though, 2 with good conditions.

But it's not required to try to kill someone with crossbows, you can try to go straight for artillery/cav. For a civ like china however, just get machinery after philosophy and you should be able to kill at least 3 guys. But this delays education/renaissance so it's questionable if you plan on getting artilleries. On pangea however you may have the opportunity to win with chu ko nu, in which case philosophy isn't even required.

Try to hit dynamite sooner than T189: don't settle your GS bulb important techs instead (schools, dynamite, flight), use oxford etc. T189 artillery isn't terrible but you won't be able to win with it, you'll kill one or 2 AI and then will need flight. It's okay to need flight, I finished the Sweden deity challenge mostly using bombers. But you need to make sure your science is acceptable enough to be able to get that tech.

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I see, thanks for the suggestions. This time I tried with Poland, got to Artillery at turn 159, started fighting on turn 180 or so, got Greece and German capital. However, Mongolia became a runaway and after 30 turns I could only conquer 3 cities because he simply had so many units. With 22 bombers, 7 Rocket Artillery, I still couldnt kill the insane unit supply he had. I finally gave up because it was getting tedious killing his units and I wasnt going anywhere.

I think I hit a faster time with Poland due to the UA. If I can hit a similar time with other civs I should be good to go. But I still don't know how to conquer a runaway. They basically have limitless supply. By the time I was done with Germany it was turn 250, decided to wait for Bombers and roads so I attacked Mongolia around turn 270, but by turn 300 allI had was those 3-4 cities because he kept basically throwing units at me and even though my bombers killed 4-5 units a turn, his supply was limitless. Would really like tips on how to deal with runaways.

Also, I kind of respect the power of a good XB push now. If I can get 2-3 capitals with XBs, getting the rest with Artillery and Bombers shouldn't be too difficult. As it is though, fighting runaways seem really difficult. I feel like the runaway AI should have been left to last choice, maybe I shouldnt have gone up to him first? ( My other choice was Mayans, which I would have easily gotten anyway so I decided to skip, and Askia, because I had to go through Mongolia on land to get to him (or have a strong enough Navy otherwise?

Should I have gone for others first and left Mongolia to last?

You have a couple options against strong civs. If they catch up on your tech and are on like 10 cities it will be hell to mow through their carpet of units.
You either kill them early when your tech advantage is way superior or you wait for the end. At the end you can simply make a rush for his cap and win that way. Or just win nuking his mass of units.

Also very important that you bribe him as much as possible before considering attacking.

I love this strategy and have read through most of the posts. If what I write has already been discussed, my most sincere apologies are offered in advance.

I'm in the middle of trying a variation of this strategy as Inca. My initial thought was that this was somewhat counter-intuitive, as Inca was made to play tall. However, it actually syncs very well.

-You are beelining Construction anyways (terrace farms), so the archer rush is a natural fit.

-The UA makes for a highly mobile ranged force. Getting into and out of trouble quickly is ideal for an archer rush.

-The cheap cost of early slingers makes it very easy to have 8 or more out early. Of course, you really need to focus on gold, both for early maintenance costs and the cost of having to upgrade twice.

-Slingers are fast barb hunters (mobility) so that helps w/gold. Take honor after the free settler to find the camps and to help with culture. Only send out slingers with <30 XP for barbs.

-Slingers w/ >30 XP should be constantly picking off your nearest neighbor's units and building up XP. I stole 2 workers from Poland and never made peace so my now CBows are very experienced.

-Build caravans early. I even detoured to sailing (2 whole turns vs. 6 got is worth it) for the extra trade route despite my first 3 cities being landlocked (common for Inca).

-Free GE usually shows up at the perfect time for Machu Pichu (I had the time and production to build Oracle). Use the GE for this and a lot of $ issues are solved.

-Since you are already in honor, try to get to Professional Army for cheaper upgrades. I don't think it's likely to get there in time for Xbow upgrades, but it's worth trying (and the 2 policies on the way are not useless). In this game, I grabbed Warrior Code because I needed the GG to snag a luxury from a nearby CS. Next time I'll try to get to Professional Army.

-As always, sell every unneeded resource to get your upgrades.

-The downside to skipping Tradition is a lack of city growth. Inca's UI really helps make up for this. Hard building aqueducts is a small price to pay.

Negatives:

-Because the game doesn't like hill tiles, you're going to have to spend some money purchasing tiles to get the best Terrace Farm locations. Try to keep this to a minimum.

-You'll have to build cheap garrison units before you send your Xbows out rushing. The benefit of a garrison w/ Military Caste is too great to pass up. This, of course, increases unit costs significantly. (makes me wish there was a National Guard option).

I'm probably missing a few things here, but so far, it looks like a great start.

(QUESTION: If I never made peace with the CS I grabbed a worker from, will there be a diplomatic penalty if I use them as an XP farm? I had only met Poland when I did this and I'm too worried about their opinion of me, seeing as how they will be sausage soon).

Thoughts?

InDubioProReo said:

Should I have gone for others first and left Mongolia to last?

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Assuming this was even a possibility because of the map, then yes, I guess so. Sometimes you're put in the middle and you can choose the order of victims pretty easily. Other times you have to go through one civ to get to another, since after 1 or 2 capitals no one is going to give you open borders unless you've been quite lucky with diplo.

If you have an edge over the AIs, and you have a choice, then go after whoever looks like they might become a runaway otherwise. And remember, NEVER pay the runaway to war with others. Better to incur a diplo penalty than to fund someone else's empire.

consentient said:

And remember, NEVER pay the runaway to war with others. Better to incur a diplo penalty than to fund someone else's empire.

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That's a pretty hardline rule. Do you make exceptions for, say, early game survival?

I know that when one of the early-game terrors is next to me, I immediately go steal a worker from them and disrupt everything I can with early archers, which should allow me to kill several of their units and slow them considerably from attaining critical mass. However, there are some (Hi Attila) who are just too strong and a bit of coin spent can buy me the 10 turns I need for CompBow defenders.

I'm thinking that if I'm going early rush, as is this thread's theme, it might make sense to spend some of that on a shared neighbor and/or jointly DoW on said geographically unlucky neighbor. Once early-aggressor is fully committed (while I pepper away and gain XP without risk), I can then turn my CompBow rush onto the bully while his units are away.

PS. Just did something similar as Inca, England the unfortunate neighbor, caught in a vice between me and Assyria. London fell t112 to 6 XBows in 2 turns (thanks for the 4 wonders darling). Bad start meant no CompBow rush, but they were quite experienced when upgraded.

PSS. Thanks again for the thread Moriarte. It's actually kinda fun.

PSS. Probably time for me to turtle up and beeline Artillery or Flight. Given that I've now cut the continent off and am stuck between Assyria (2 caps taken, Sweden maybe to fall soon) and very equal Greece and Arabia, I'm not sure what route to take. Assyria has been my buddy, and would likely march on either Alex or the Sheikh (who have been busy with several useless 10-turn wars between themselves).

After finishing England's last city (I'll probably keep it because happiness is great this game), I'll have 8 cities building Unis. Should mean Oxford around t130.

Any advice anyone? This is the best job I've done of following the script and would hate to blow this one.

Just to clarify, SharkDiver, if it's the early game then I don't consider them to be runaway yet. If I'm put next to Attila on Deity and I can't mess with his sh*t REALLY early (i.e. kill his 2nd settler or something), I will of course consider paying him to DoW someone else. But I'm not a big fan of that because if they DO go to war for real, you've just funded the growth of their empire, and if they don't, you've just thrown money away. I've not had someone I paid DoW me during the 10 turns, but I've had plenty do it in the following 20, with the classic "Yeah I was pretending" blurb.

Better to make friends with Attila and do your own warmongering, then kill him later, when you have the edge. You might be disliked for being chums with him early, but you will also gain favour when you rid the world of his menace.

I'm sure that doesn't make it any clearer, but really with Diplo every game is different and needs subtly different approaches.

TLDR: After T100, don't pay the runaway to go to war. Defending against him will give you XP while you tech to units he can't deal with.

consentient said:

Just to clarify, SharkDiver, if it's the early game then I don't consider them to be runaway yet. If I'm put next to Attila on Deity and I can't mess with his sh*t REALLY early (i.e. kill his 2nd settler or something), I will of course consider paying him to DoW someone else. But I'm not a big fan of that because if they DO go to war for real, you've just funded the growth of their empire, and if they don't, you've just thrown money away. I've not had someone I paid DoW me during the 10 turns, but I've had plenty do it in the following 20, with the classic "Yeah I was pretending" blurb.

Better to make friends with Attila and do your own warmongering, then kill him later, when you have the edge. You might be disliked for being chums with him early, but you will also gain favour when you rid the world of his menace.

I'm sure that doesn't make it any clearer, but really with Diplo every game is different and needs subtly different approaches.

TLDR: After T100, don't pay the runaway to go to war. Defending against him will give you XP while you tech to units he can't deal with.

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Thanks for the clarification. I pretty much agree with everything above. I'm a huge fan of getting in Shaka/Attila's face right from the get go.

I had a late game situation come up, where I wasn't sure if I was going to end up going Dom. or Sci. I too week Austria's capital, which put me right between very strong military Ottomans and strong military/science Russia. With my reputation this game, I knew both would DoW me immediately after taking that capital, and both had a dozen or more units (mostly infantry). There was no way I was going to hold that city for even one turn (bombers had done all the damage for me). So I paid Russia to DoW Ottoman, giving me 10 turns to shore up defense and happiness.

It worked, but was very circumstantial. I would usually follow your rule of not paying…..but I wasn't ready to fight 2 fronts. I was ready 10 turns later and they did enough damage to each other that it was a steamroll. I got SV about 3 turns before DV would have happened. (sort of accidentally, but when you get a desert start Netherlands and your capital grows to size 50, the science comes pretty easily. Prettiest capital I've ever built….all those lovely Polders).